Boot Width

[nekdut]

I've searched and read all over, and I gather that this is order of boot width from narrowest to widest:

1) Burton: fairly narrow overall

2) Raichle SB

3) Raichle AF/Suzuka/Indy/Track 700 (wider toebox than SBs)

4) UPZ (wider toebox, fairly narrow heel)

5) Head Stratos Pro (fairly wide overall)

I just want to confirm that this is pretty much the case. Please chime in if I am wrong.

I am trying to downsize/race fit, currently riding sz27.0 Suzukas, and always had a problem with toebox width (I believe I am 4E, punched the toes out a few times already, completely flat feet). This packs out fairly readily for me, plenty of toe wiggle room and I have to crank the ankle strap to the max. My feet measure 27.6/27.4 but I'd like to move the size 26 or 26.5 Head SPs, with minimal shell stretching/punching/grinding if possible, and I'm open to going with Zipfits or injection molded liners. I have use podiatrist prescribed orthotics with all of my boots already.

Does this sound like the right course of action?

[BlueB]

My observations:

UPZ has wider toe box then Head

SB and AF have wider heel then Head

[big canuck]

Ive had all those boots (2 times in a couple of instances) except option 2 (but I did have Raichle Snowboarders back in the day!!) and I would agree with your synopsis.

Buckle quality is the best too IMHO compared to the other boots.

I have big volume, size 12 feet all day long and large calves. I originally had 29 HSP's but got em down to a 28.5 (Its smaller than the 29, I had to adjust the length of my bindings down quite a bit). With custom liners. footbeds and some punching. They fit really well on my foot shape.

My $0.02 TIFWIW,

k

[nekdut]

Thanks Boris and Kurt. Interesting findings so far.

Hmm, I have some UPZ RSV size 26.0 shells here, and a shell test revealed a few interesting things. First, the sides of my toes are already touching the sides of the shells, so a punch/grind would be necessary to even attempt this at all. Length-wise, it is relatively tight, but with my orthotic under my foot, I get slightly less than a finger behind my heel, so its doable with a thin liner or injection molding. I really do want a race fit, so this MIGHT work with some aggressive punching out of the toe box.

Anyone else with more Head SP experiences? I'd ideally like to fully confirm if size 26.0 Head shells are wider than size 26.0 UPZ shells, as I'll probably pick up a new set from Bomber and go with foam injected liners.

[bobdea]

your post is about right but with very minor work the burton shells fit great for me. the raichle sb boots required more work and I still had lots of pain

what type of boot do you like? the heads are really easy to deform for me, deeluxe 700s don't deform so much but are softer than UPZ.

UPZ and burton were the stiffest for me by a long shot, UPZ if I had to nail down feel would be a cross between burton and deeluxe indys but totally locked out at a certain point in the forward flex almost like a ski boot does but with way more movement before the dead zone. kinda of weird at first and certainly not for everyone.

the extra beef is welcome for me but I had to take more time to get my canting right and I still don't like the dead flex when the buckles collide. with UPZ I feel like I'm not able compress as much. in heads I can do whatever whenever because the boots don't fight me at all but it's at the expense of support.

[John H]

I've had all of those at one time or another and your findindings are pretty much my experience. One thing that I believe comes into play is boot length with respect to flex or should I say sudden stop of flex. The Heads and UPZ's have buckle interference as you flex forward, which is what Bob has refered to as the sudden stop of flex. I think this gets worse as the boots get shorter.

[queequeg]

I went from a 26 in Heads to a 26 in UPZ and found the flex characteristics of the boots to be very different. As far as last width: I found the UPZ and heads about the same in the toes, but I found the heel to be much narrower in the UPZ (which for me at least was a bonus). The UPZ has a sloping footbed angle which raises the heel quite a bit higher than the toes.

EDIT: I haven't actually measured the heel width of the heads vs the UPZ: but my observations from riding both in the same liner (Dalbello Gold ID) and footbeds is that I developed a lot of side-to-side heel-slop in the Heads over the course of a day, whereas in the UPZ things remain firm all day. If I remember, I will go measure them when I get home tonight. It could be that this was caused by the way the HEADs tend to buckle a bit more, rather than width. Not sure.

In UPZ forward lean resistance is controlled with the tongue and a spring resistance system. The boot plastic the UPZs are made of is fairly hard, and the boots do not buckle much when the spring bottoms out. Presuming forward lean is set correctly on the boots, bottoming out should be a non-issue. I find the flex of the UPZ's to be smooth, progressive and supportive - very friendly. With regards to buckles: there is some crashing between the lower-cuff and instep buckles but I have not found it to be a problem. The UPZ boots do not buckle (as in collapse ... obviously they have buckles) at all really, and although they have a nice friendly forward flex, they are quite stiff laterally.

In Head boots, the forward lean resistance is controlled with the tongue, a spring resistance system, AND some large plastic wings that extend into the boot upper from the last at the heel. The head boot plastic seems softer to me when compared with the UPZ, though this may just be because it is a higher volume boot (and therefore there is more plastic to flex). The plastic wings in back provide a pretty tremendous amount of resistance, though I think this will be less noticeable to users with longer legs (more leverage) or more weight (need more support). You can cut the wings to customize the forward flex characteristics of the boot (which is good, to my mind). The boot plastic does seem to collapse somewhat in the heads when you lean far forward, but I think this is largely due to the way the the instep buckle is anchored and placed in this boot (see below).

instep buckle concerns: An additional factor that affects the flex of head boots is the instep buckle placement which is fairly high, but anchored to the last such that it stays put as you flex the boot forward. The high position of this fixed instep buckle results in progressively greater resistance as you flex forward. I found that if the instep buckle was tightened correctly while I was standing up, it was too hard to flex forward, and that if it felt correct when I was flexed forward, it felt too lose when I stood straight up. For some people that may be a good thing but for me it meant the boots never felt correct. If you look at a photo of a pair of HSP's it *looks* like the instep buckle is attached to the cuff but it is not: it is anchored to the last through a hole in the cuff. When the cuff, moves, the instep buckle stays put.

Overall: I found that the UPZ were more supportive yet less restrictive (in terms of forward flex) than the HEADS, which seems weird but it's probably because they seem to fit me better and don't collapse. Bob's findings with the Heads are a little different than mine- I found the (forward) flex of the heads WAY too stiff until I modified them (cut off the wings): I think this is because I weigh a bit less than Bob and thus was unable to deform the plastic of the heads as easily.

Burton:

I've got a pair of NOS Burton (fires) in my closet now that I am helping a friend out with. The plastic is fairly stiff (definitely stiffer than the Heads, and possibly stiffer than the UPZ). and the fit seems quite narrow all around, great for narrow feet and skinny calves. Awesome boots. Such a shame that the molds were destroyed. Really weird, but clever design with the way the tongue integrates with the boot.

[Helvetico]

I have 9EEE feet with a high arch (dubbed "high volume" in by the shoewear industry: think Fred Flintstone feet), and find the 26.0 Heads too narrow even after having them punched out three or four times. I also had custom liners made by a local bootfit guru. I still lose feeling in my toes every time I ride, not to mention three toenails last winter.

Tried on the UPZ...spent a LOT of time at the shop...and found them too narrow to even bother. I'm going to buy 27.0 Heads, have them punched out, then buy super-expensive injected liners from Strolz in Austria. It's either that or return to Salomon Synapse Wide softies, since nothing else fits. I'd buy custom-made boots in a heartbeat, but nobody makes them. It's enough to make me want to learn how to ski.

I searched this forum (and others) and found only one other person with similar fit problems: Hans. He had to upsize. You have flat feet, so you'll probably be just fine with the prevailing bootfit wisdom.

[Beckmann AG]

...then buy super-expensive injected liners from Strolz in Austria.

...I'd buy custom-made boots in a heartbeat, but nobody makes them. It's enough to make me want to learn how to ski.

Strolz will be happy to build a custom for you. Their shell system is componentized, so you can mix cuff and scafo to get the flex you want. The older models even had a rudimentary RAB on the spine.

Not the best performance product on the market, but if you have a bear paw for a foot...

And later you can learn to ski in them.

[big canuck]

All of the info you seek will be available soon via extremely accurate cross sectional measurements, not just someones opinion or personal experience. Might have to wait some time for it but it is in the works.

Think Snow!

I'm curious to see how that info stacks up vs my expirience. It will certainly save some people some time being able to compare with actual figures.

[nekdut]

Hey skiers, do any of you own Head ski boots? I tried on quite a few pairs of Head ski boots this evening, and I loved the width, it was perfect! Do any of you know if Head Stratos Pros fit like Head ski boots? I am definitely picking up a pair of HSPs from Bomber tonight if the fit is the same.

[BlueB]

If I remember correctly, the Head EZ (now called Edge) fit jut like my Dalbello CarveX, which is exactelly the same as Stratos Pro.

[nekdut]

Boris,

Do you mean these?

http://www.backcountry.com/head-skis-usa-edge-10.8-superheat-3-ski-boot-mens

I tried on a pair just like this in 26.5 and it was perfecto.

[BlueB]

Yes, I believe that I tried those, in lower model number.

[John Gilmour]

I have a 9.5EE foot. medium to low volume.

For years 1988-2004 I struggled to ride Raichles. But my calf muscle was always partially buried in the boot making my quads incinerate... and they were historically to narrow for my feet. I demoed them almost every year only to go back to my Nordica's

Boot history:

1983 LL bean boots (real pain) Sims bindings without highbacks.

1984 Koflach Valuga Lites SIZE 9 (A randonee ski touring boot- lace up liner buckles outside) a good boot too soft.

1986 Koflach Albona SIZE 9 (A randonee ski touring boot Lace up liner buckles outside- a favorite of Damian Saunders) a little firmer

1989 Nordica Tr-9 A Size 26.5 randonee ski touring boot Lace up liner buckles outside- the Nordica SBH was based upon this boot but a few durometer points softer and without a locking top buckle and cant adjustment) likely my favorite boot- though I would overflex it with the Madd decks. Ridiculously comfortable if you heated them first in the car vents on high- like hot molded hi-top bedroom slippers. Very heat sensitive..hated weather below 10 degrees f. Easy to walk in with walk ski mode. I downsized into this boot but it gave me a heel bunion over time..I had to kick into them - they were so tight.

2004? Head Stratos Size 27.0 clunky, the abrupt "buckle stack" flex stop drove me crazy, also very temperature dependent- always too stiff in cold weather. The buckles stacked WAYYY too easily in warm weather. Heavy.

2010 Deeluxe 700T Size 27.5 with custom injected 2 part foam strolz liners. To the OP. I had to upsize from a what I thought a race fit 26.5 a full size to 27.5 to allow for the foam liner.. Boots were too stiff for my leg strength, also too heavy as I am used to lighter ski touring boots. I even found the Stratos to be too heavy for me. There seemed to be a delay in when I told the board (Kessler 185 PGS) to initiate a turn and when it actually happened. The boots had the BTS blue system which for the most part eliminated shin bang (which I suffer from likely due to riding style and pushing it on marginal conditions and catching jackhammers). Note that people who ride the 700T seem to love it. I just have always had a problem with Raichle/Deelux working for me.

[Helvetico]

Strolz will be happy to build a custom for you. Their shell system is componentized, so you can mix cuff and scafo to get the flex you want. The older models even had a rudimentary RAB on the spine.

Not the best performance product on the market, but if you have a bear paw for a foot...

And later you can learn to ski in them.

I sent an e-mail to Strolz in Lech about this last year, and they said they no longer made snowboard boots, but would be happy to provide the foam liners. There's an American guy in Kitzbuehel who works at Dale Boots (who knows, maybe it's Dale himself...is there a Dale?) who seemed interested in the possibility of custom-making boots for a snowboard. I assumed he was just selling his product, but maybe there was something to it.

Anyone used Dale boots to board in?