Learning to teach carving

[carvedog]

Agreed, Steve. It seems to me that riding at a 'masterful' level requires a clear mind, which in turn requires you to know all of the basic skills of your activity well enough that they are automatic. Then, you really can have fun and start to be artistic will your lines and play with the corduroy canvas that you're given! :D

The question is: when might it be appropriate to 'shift gears' when teaching a student, and encourage them to expand their awareness outside of the basic push-here-do-that mechanics? Could this be the final polishing/integration step in teaching any new skill?

• Introduce & demonstrate new skill
  
• Drill and refine skill
  
• Continue drilling until the skill is automatic
  
• Shift focus away from the skill to flow, fun, creativitiy

Ian - a couple semi-coherent thoughts from a heretic.

I think as an instructor it is appropriate to shift gears at almost any time. At any point you see an opportunity to move forward you should. Turn your list around, as in introduce the idea of something beyond the basic 'push here, do that' mechanics to begin with.

Anytime you are following a list, I think you limit yourself (potentially) to just what is covered there. Or the idea of that progression or outcome.

While this pattern is decent guideline to build off, I think if you follow traditional teaching patterns or paths, then it just becomes rote.

Personally I despise the word drill. Makes me think of a dentist. Maybe that is just semantics, but if your thoughts going in are geared to traditional definitions, ideas or 'drills' - you may exclude the possibility for different outcomes. Or if you think you have to: introduce, demo, practice then flow, then fun and creativity.

I know, I know - with a physical and challenging sport like learning snowboarding or learning carving there are certain things people will tell you have to be done in certain order of presentation and....then build this and then do that, especially if you are working within defined "progressions" from a ski school.

I will say that if you aren't willing and able to chuck your whole style of teaching and expected outcomes and development out the window and start over at any time, you will limit yourself.

When I was examining I was a bit of a bastard. I would have people teach segments without using the words: flex, extend, edge, rotate. Try that sometime. Or I would do a "silent" teaching segment - sound effects only - no words allowed.

I have worked with several kids who are autistic or have aspergers. With the one kid it was all "follow me". He was a perfect visual mimic. He had no real conception of toeside or heelside, but could do very high level maneuvers by simply following me. Me introducing and demoing a move or technique was pointless.

So I turned the whole thing into a kind of guided discovery where we kept moving the whole time. Granted this is the extreme, but everyone learns differently and there are a hundred different ways to arrive at any one destination.

If there is one thing I took away from all my years with AASI, it was that. There are many, many ways to learn and teach. Forget all the techno babble. Focus on creative ways to learn/teach.

Sorry for the lengthy blog. It is something I am passionate about, and I think many instructors do a great disservice by staying with the rote and familiar or what worked last time.

[b0ardski]

Ian - a couple semi-coherent thoughts from a heretic.

I think as an instructor it is appropriate to shift gears at almost any time. At any point you see an opportunity to move forward you should.

I will say that if you aren't willing and able to chuck your whole style of teaching and expected outcomes and development out the window and start over at any time, you will limit yourself.

...but everyone learns differently and there are a hundred different ways to arrive at any one destination.

well said, I always hated progressions, except for rank beginners, and think group lessons can be a real dis-service by limiting the adjust-ability of teaching style to the individual.

This is one of the best discussions on instruction I've ever read.

[Bobby Buggs]

After reading this my head hurts:freak3::freak3:

[trailertrash]

After reading my head hurts:freak3::freak3:

Fixed it for you.

[Beckmann AG]

a couple semi-coherent thoughts from a heretic.

Well, C-dog (if I may address you as such), if such thoughts make you a heretic, then I may well be the anti-Christ.

While drills and such can be an effective part of teaching, they also serve both parties as a means of feeling like something has been accomplished. One can become quite proficient at doing various drills, without improving much as a rider.

With all due respect to Hilti, DeWalt, Metabo, Bosch and those who favor them, I'm not a fan of drills. They may be an expected part of teaching, but they often limit creativity, and don't often provide for the freedom/spontaneity of movement integral to learning. Moving over snow is about movement, and it's subtleties. It is not about replicating positions and postures.

While there are exceptions to almost every rule, outside of a test of proficiency, most clients would likely prefer to be covering acreage with a goal in mind, rather than doing 'school figures'.

I think if you follow traditional teaching patterns or paths, then it just becomes rote.

And if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got.

Try a different approach to a familiar situation. Succeed or fail, you may learn something of value.

I have worked with several kids who are autistic or have aspergers. With the one kid it was all "follow me". He was a perfect visual mimic. He had no real conception of toeside or heelside, but could do very high level maneuvers by simply following me. Me introducing and demoing a move or technique was pointless.

As we are all hardwired to walk, so too we have the capacity to glide. Children seldom learn to walk by attending a class, by watching, or by following a lecture; they learn by doing something (and failing) in a particular context, and then extending their boundaries. Some of the most important 'doing' takes place just slightly beyond the comfort zone. Sense of touch and unhindered range of articulation figure largely in the outcome.

In the case of your examples, an apparent handicap is an asset.

...and you always have to have some flexibility in the system, ideally in the appropriate places.

Unfortunately, too many look for flexibility in the wrong places.

The question is: when might it be appropriate to 'shift gears' when teaching a student, and encourage them to expand their awareness outside of the basic push-here-do-that mechanics?

More often than not, if the pacing/information/context is appropriate, the client will seek to expand their 'awareness' on their own, which is to say, they will be asking you, one way or another, for additional challenge. This request may be verbal, or it may involve subtle hints in body language or carriage.

A sound technical understanding should enhance a largely organic learning experience.

If you want to ride at a higher level, more of your movements need to be intuitive rather than learned, and you need to make fewer of them, with greater accuracy.

Think of riding a bicycle at speed. A tiny movement of the front fork causes the contact patch on the front wheel to move to one side (to the outside of the turn), and everything else tilts the other way, toward the apex of the turn. THereafter the rider has to make even smaller steering adjustments to keep the contact patch aligned with the combined force vector (gravity and acceleration or "centrifugal" forces) until steering again to move the contact patch back to a position vertically under the rider and go straight again. The control motions and forces are tiny but the reactions can be many times larger.

Vital. When enough riders actually incorporate this into their riding, the sport will experience a paradigm shift.

[b0ardski]

"A sound technical understanding should enhance a largely organic learning experience."

Love that, should be a ski skool motto.

...you need to make fewer movements with greater accuracy.

That's when your riding looks fluid and effortless:biggthump

[BobD]

If you want to ride at a higher level, more of your movements need to be intuitive rather than learned, and you need to make fewer of them, with greater accuracy.

This is when the body, and mind are working at a concept level, rather than just picking elements of drills.

Teach to concepts, rather than rote skills. This is where a concept themed progression of lesson segments will lead to a moment of understanding. Importantly, introducing, and reflecting on each lesson segment will guide the student in storing away the concepts in a way that can be used intuitively.

[Jack M]

These grand theories are great and of course correct, but it sounds to me like they would require an extended period of time spent coaching a student in order to accomplish changes in technique and proficiency, i.e., a week-long vacation or a season-long program. What are you supposed to do during a 1 or 2 hour lesson where you and/or the student does not know if there will be further opportunities for instruction?

[carvedog]

These grand theories are great and of course correct, but it sounds to me like they would require an extended period of time spent coaching a student in order to accomplish changes in technique and proficiency, i.e., a week-long vacation or a season-long program. What are you supposed to do during a 1 or 2 hour lesson where you and/or the student does not know if there will be further opportunities for instruction?

I think you are right that it may be challenging to change someone's riding in an hour or two, not enough mileage mostly.

But....it's not hard to get someone to change their own self-image or to give them a concept or how to visualize something new or different in their riding.

Especially with upper level riders I try to find out how aware of their own bodies and movements they are and build from that. Sometimes teaching someone how to "feel" their own body and find out if certain joints are moving or static is enough to send them off on a whole new journey of discovery.

So teach 'em how to fish instead of feeding them the fish.

[Jack M]

I agree it's possible to plant a seed and start it growing in an hour or two, but that doesn't work for everybody. At ECES 2006, I heard some feedback about the provided lessons. Many people thought they were wonderful, but I also got some comments that some more "practical" tips would be appreciated, and that some people had a hard time getting their head around the theory.

I'll never forget when Erik grabbed me on the hill in I think 1992 and said hey, on heelside, try putting your rear elbow on your front knee and holding it there. And on toeside try grabbing the back of your rear boot cuff with your front hand. Of course the intention was/is not to ride this way all the time, but these two simple drills changed my riding and got me past a plateau upon which I was stuck.

[BlueB]

These grand theories are great...

Also, it should be remembered that by the postulates of the quantum physics, as well as of the various mystic schools over the centuries, thanks to the bending of the space and time/space continuum, the student doesn't even need to come to the mountain, for him and the teacher are the one and the same. Moreover, student is also the board itself, as well as the slope, all of the proficient carve masters and all the other things imaginable. Not only that he already can do it, but he did it already.

Just keep typing…

[Beckmann AG]

These grand theories are great and of course correct, but it sounds to me like they would require an extended period of time spent coaching a student in order to accomplish changes in technique and proficiency, i.e., a week-long vacation or a season-long program. What are you supposed to do during a 1 or 2 hour lesson where you and/or the student does not know if there will be further opportunities for instruction?

Well, you could just bluff, and attempt to help via involved exercise lines, progressions, and encouragement.

Or, you can identify the one most crucial element and do something about it.

You can't fool the CNS. When you institute an appropriate 'fix', more often than not, it sticks, because the body recognizes that particular movement/ sensation, whatever, as being appropriate, and more effective than previous efforts.

Sometimes the fix is mechanical, sometimes procedural, and sometimes context. Often a combination.

If I had a dollar for every time I facilitated progress with just a screwdriver, without saying anything about riding, I would have a lot of dollars.

I agree it's possible to plant a seed and start it growing in an hour or two, but that doesn't work for everybody. At ECES 2006, I heard some feedback about the provided lessons. Many people thought they were wonderful, but I also got some comments that some more "practical" tips would be appreciated, and that some people had a hard time getting their head around the theory.

'Practical' often has a lot to do with viewpoint, and expectations. I suspect that many SES/ECES attendees are accustomed to reading all sorts of quick tips on BOL and elsewhere, and their expectation is that they will (and often do) receive the same in the flesh.

Hopefully, I can leave a person with a bit of insight that might help them examine their own riding in my absence. I feel that is more practical than a situational comment about hand position or body angles.

Obviously,we don't all agree with that approach, and that's fine.

I'll never forget when Erik grabbed me on the hill in I think 1992 and said hey, on heelside, try putting your rear elbow on your front knee and holding it there. And on toeside try grabbing the back of your rear boot cuff with your front hand. Of course the intention was/is not to ride this way all the time, but these two simple drills changed my riding and got me past a plateau upon which I was stuck.

At the time, exercises like that would forcibly move us past the problems we had with our equipment. So while dramatically contorted postures can be an effective way to experience a particular sensation or effect, there are better ways to go about it.

[Rob Stevens]

To the OP:

You should take the CASI courses until you run out of courses to take.

The content is very much left-right-left sort of stuff, with techniques that translate to alpine or freeride carving. I wouldn't get too hung up on the fact that the demonstrator or candidates are all on soft gear and lower angles... The principles are largely the same.

There are FAR more similarities betwen high and low binding angle carving than there are differences.

At the end of the day, you would have to be coaching multi-day intermediate to expert riders to use most information beyond the "Norm" and the Norm with a bit of flexion. In my opinion, if you can link railed turns, you have as much, or more, information than any walk-in consumer I've ever seen wants to pay for.

Bomber events notwithstanding, there is just no real demand out there for anything beyond intermediate linked carves and that's why CASI does not offer the "Carving instructor" course anymore. There was no demand for that stand alone product, so its content got rolled into the L2 and 3.

Here's a teaching tip: Ask lots of questions about what the clients goals are. Haven't heard anything about that in this thread (or I missed it). Even good instuctors spend too much time trying to figure out what they're going to teach, when it might not be what the rider wants to learn. Do it right and they'll give you half your lesson on the spot.

"What do you want to ride that you can't, or what do you want to do that's giving you trouble?"

If you've got heaps of terrain, you can probably just guide the student through that stuff and they'll learn by doing, with only a few, well-placed words from you. If you don't have much in the way of terrain, you'll have to do more excercises and drills and likely more verbage and set-up along the way. Even in the latter case, it's true that knowing just a few good excercises can take care of 90% of the issues you'll see, as people seem to have the same problems. I seem to use the same fixes all the time. Why not? They work and I've seen enough fluff over the years to know what sticks and what doesn't.

In teachinng anything, I'll pick 3 drills and stick to them, whether I have access to lots of terrain, or very little.

-I'll do a static exercise first, like leaning against something to feel a dynamic position.

-Once they're looking at me like they get it, I'll have them try it isolated to one turn and repeat that same turn.

**In the first two, it's easy to give feedback because they're right beside you, or you're resetting every turn.

-Lastly, I'll have them do a bunch of whatever it is we're doing and leave the feedback to the chair... I hate ****ing standing around. Others have said "Mileage is good." That's for real. Your review will be better in a lesson where they ride alot and learn nothing, than ride hardly at all and learn a little bit because you're yapping all the time.

Oh yeah... One last thing... If they don't seem to be picking it up right away, we'll no doubt... You just introduced it. Because they're doing it badly, that doesn't mean you should give them something else to try. Stick to your plan, unless they want to change it up.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Bomber events notwithstanding, there is just no real demand out there for anything beyond intermediate linked carves

So are you going to come out to NES and show us how to do it right?

[Rob Stevens]

Sorry Neil...

Gregg Todds memorial NoBoard race on the 13th and leaving for St. Anton on the 14th.

Tough one... I know.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Sounds like a huge sacrifice on your part - you gotta do what you gotta do...

[Ian M]

WOW... this discussion just keeps amazing me! Thanks everyone for contributing such wisdom :D

If you make a little time for reflection in between those activities, the circle will be complete. Summary, or reflection is often omitted by instructors, or done poorly. Done well, it will cement the concept in the students mind. It also allows the instructor to check for misconceptions, which can hinder progress.

Cool idea. I also really liked your link, which told me that my learning style is 'assimilator', and that I'd do best with a top-down conceptual approach. Too true :)

Focus on creative ways to learn/teach.

Sorry for the lengthy blog. It is something I am passionate about, and I think many instructors do a great disservice by staying with the rote and familiar or what worked last time.

You never need to apologize to me for being passionate about something!

A sound technical understanding should enhance a largely organic learning experience. If you want to ride at a higher level, more of your movements need to be intuitive rather than learned, and you need to make fewer of them, with greater accuracy.

This is when the body, and mind are working at a concept level, rather than just picking elements of drills.

Teach to concepts, rather than rote skills. This is where a concept themed progression of lesson segments will lead to a moment of understanding. Importantly, introducing, and reflecting on each lesson segment will guide the student in storing away the concepts in a way that can be used intuitively.

AWESOME. Awesome awesome awesome.

Also, it should be remembered that by the postulates of the quantum physics, as well as of the various mystic schools over the centuries, thanks to the bending of the space and time/space continuum, the student doesn't even need to come to the mountain, for him and the teacher are the one and the same. Moreover, student is also the board itself, as well as the slope, all of the proficient carve masters and all the other things imaginable. Not only that he already can do it, but he did it already.

I actually think you're on the right track here, BlueB I'd still like my soul to experience the physical manifestation of this knowledge in what I perceive as the present moment, though... lol

'Practical' often has a lot to do with viewpoint, and expectations.... Obviously,we don't all agree with that approach, and that's fine.

Agreed; I makes sense to me that different 'take-aways' will work for different people. Likely based on both learning styles and previous knowledge/experience.

To the OP:

You should take the CASI courses until you run out of courses to take.

The content is very much left-right-left sort of stuff, with techniques that translate to alpine or freeride carving. I wouldn't get too hung up on the fact that the demonstrator or candidates are all on soft gear and lower angles... The principles are largely the same.

There are FAR more similarities between high and low binding angle carving than there are differences.

At the end of the day, you would have to be coaching multi-day intermediate to expert riders to use most information beyond the "Norm" and the Norm with a bit of flexion. In my opinion, if you can link railed turns, you have as much, or more, information than any walk-in consumer I've ever seen wants to pay for.

Bomber events notwithstanding, there is just no real demand out there for anything beyond intermediate linked carves and that's why CASI does not offer the "Carving instructor" course anymore. There was no demand for that stand alone product, so its content got rolled into the L2 and 3.

Ask lots of questions about what the clients goals are.

Thanks, Rob... this is a really helpful comment. I reactivated my CASI membership today, and will sign up for the L2 once the renewal is complete.

It's good to be 'brought back to earth' too, and realize that very few opportunities to teach at the level that I already ride will present themselves. One thing that I've really enjoyed about teaching lower levels is how it makes me appreciative of my 'more intense/different' riding experience. We forget so easily that most of us ride at a level, or in a style, that is very exceptional to most people.

The real reason I'm in this is for the smiles, though. When you can help someone who is frustrated, turn their day around, and have them grinning like an idiot because they're having so much fun, it is all worth it. SLIDE!

[Steve Prokopiw]

Looks like it must be nearing it's end,but this thread has gotten me thinking with renewed enthusiasm about teaching.Thanks to all the contributors!

[OhD]

WOW...

I actually think you're on the right track here, BlueB I'd still like my soul to experience the physical manifestation of this knowledge in what I perceive as the present moment, though... lol

If only to keep the calibration sticker current...

[Ian M]

^ exactly

[b0ardski]

Also, it should be remembered that by the postulates of the quantum physics, as well as of the various mystic schools over the centuries, thanks to the bending of the space and time/space continuum, the student doesn't even need to come to the mountain, for him and the teacher are the one and the same. Moreover, student is also the board itself, as well as the slope, all of the proficient carve masters and all the other things imaginable. Not only that he already can do it, but he did it already.

Just keep typing…

Blue B, or blue pill?

[BlueB]

Blue B, or blue pill?

:D Yeah, it could be that way... But I think more:

"Learning is finding out what you already know.

Doing is demonstrating that you know it.

Teaching is reminding others that they know just as well as you."

Illusions, Richard Bach

Recommended (not teaching related):

One, Richard Bach

Mysticism and the New Physics, Michael Talbot

The Doors of Perception, Aldous Huxley

[Ian M]

If anyone is still subscribed to this thread, I'll share my news: I just completed my CASI level 2 today with flying colours! I learned lots of new tools for soft-boot carving, and became much more skilled over the four days at carving my own softy rig. I'm really starting to have fun on that board now that I can carve quite aggressively on it.

The biggest challenge was separating my 'hard-boot habits' from the soft-boot techniques. Reviewing videos of my riding helped a lot, and showed things like forward-rotated hips, forward-driven rear knee (even though I'm set up duck), and fore-aft weight shifts a la Gilmour Bias.

My main focus is still hard-boot carving, but sharing my enthusiasm for carving with my instructor and class-mates this week was very rewarding too!

Cheers

[kinpa]

Good for you! Congrats!!!!

I got my Level 2 back in 1995 (when snowboard instructors were still under PSIA) I know if I have to do a Level 2 exam again, I probably wouldn't pass because I can't do the freestyle stuff. Next week I'll be attending a Level 2 prep clinic. I need the credits and I figured maybe that would be a good event to attend. I'm going to be riding my all-mountain board with hard boots and pretty low binding angles. We'll see what happens! I'm not sure I want to risk getting myself hurt doing the freestyle stuff, but maybe I just just suck it up and at least try. I can kinda ride switch on that board, but not real well. Not sure what else I'm going to be asked to do. I'll let you guys know what happens. Maybe I'll get stripped of my certification!

[Ian M]

^ Thanks kinpa, and good luck to you!

We didn't have to do freestyle for CASI L2; just straight airs and switch riding on green & blue terrain. The L3 gets into the terrain park, though... 180's, basic box slides, etc. I'm interested in doing the L3, but also have negligible freestyle experience. I'd have to work on that a fair bit, as well as more switch riding and moguls...