astrokel Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 Clearly the real definition of the word "steering" is the issue here. If you start off the carve (pure and on edge) in hero snow in a long and easy radius turn, then compress into the turn putting more bend into the board making a smaller turn (again pure and on edge) is this "steering" or is it called something else in the english language? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RideGuy Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 Clearly the real definition of the word "steering" is the issue here. If you start off the carve (pure and on edge) in hero snow in a long and easy radius turn, then compress into the turn putting more bend into the board making a smaller turn (again pure and on edge) is this "steering" or is it called something else in the english language? That would be pressure control. Pressure control, edge angle and speed will all change the radius of a pure carved turn without steering. The second you steer your turn is no longer pure carved. If you are leaving nothing but pencil lines behind you then you ARE NOT steering. If your tracks look more like a crescent moon then you ARE steering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arclite Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 My bad, I voted "yes" I meant no. :o Its all just leaning on you edge and imputing pressure...right? You dont really "steer" the board, or atleast not like you would a freeride board on softies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrokel Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 Please define "steering" for this post. If steering means sliding no you don't. If steering means affecting what direction you're going then yes (personally my definition. BTW from Websters: steer Function: verb Etymology: Middle English steren, from Old English stīeran; akin to Old English stēor- steering oar, Greek stauros stake, cross, stylos pillar, Sanskrit sthavira, sthūra stout, thick Date: 12th century transitive verb 1 : to control the course of : direct; especially : to guide by mechanical means (as a rudder) 2 : to set and hold to (a course) intransitive verb 1 : to direct the course (as of a ship or automobile) 2 : to pursue a course of action 3 : to be subject to steering <the car steers well> If you didn't "steer" you'd either never get into a carve or never get out of it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobD Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 A problem with the usual use of steering movements, is that you could introduce a rotational steering movement when upright, that will no longer be a steering movement when highly inclined, but instead, a subtle pressuring movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrokel Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 A problem with the usual use of steering movements, is that you could introduce a rotational steering movement when upright, that will no longer be a steering movement when highly inclined, but instead, a subtle pressuring movement. Yes... isn't that "subtle pressuring movement" how we carvers "steer"? I mean we don't have wheels or handlebars on our boards... You can steer a bike by "countersteering" at speed, or turning the handlebar at low speeds or with weight input to "subtlely" affect direction... All that is "steering". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RideGuy Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 When I say "steering" I'm referring to the way CASI defines the word (and I'm assuming AASI is the same). A difference between your line of momentum and the edge of your board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrokel Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 This might be getting a bit too geeky but are you refering to "momentum" in the Newtonian sense that "Every body persists in its state of being at rest or of moving uniformly straight forward, except insofar as it is compelled to change its state by force impressed." So we as carvers live in an Einsteinian universe in a relativistic physical model where space is curved along our edges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 Please define "steering" for this post. If steering means sliding no you don't. I take "steering" to mean sliding/skidding. What RideGuy said in #32. I believe AASI says the same thing, as I'm pretty sure (iirc) PSIA did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjl Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 Oh, in that case I don't believe in "steering". I was viewing "steering" as applying a yaw force on the board, which I do do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrokel Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 I take "steering" to mean sliding/skidding. If that's what the OP meant then this was a Troll and a pretty odd question because if you "steered" in a "pure carved turn" it wouldn't be, by definition, a pure carved turn. I guess my mistake was attributing some intelligence to the original question...? :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wun Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 yipee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinpa Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 Interesting topic Boris... and I know you are an instructor in Canada.... and I'm sure the Canadian snowboard theories are very similar to AASI, so my question to you then, by "steering" do you mean "rotation"? If yes, my vote would be no.... because I don't believe there is much rotation in the body in a pure carve. You used the design of the board to make the turn. Where a beginner uses A LOT of rotation to make a turn, but not as much of board design. I guess I may need to dig out the book again..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinpa Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 If PSIA, AASI, CASI or any other governing instructional body had anything to do with writting the how to manual that your planning on referring to, pour some gas on it and burn it now! Rotation is a very large part of the game. Don't believe everything you read. Think Snow! You got a thing with fire, don't you???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinpa Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 Yeah, especially when it comes to PSIA or any of the closely related bretheren. I endured their ever chaging "how to" manuals for many years. Many examiners suffered the rath of me calling bull**** on the garbage that they attempted to pass off as gospel. A few even listened!Think Snow! I remember back in the day when snowboarding was still under PSIA.... isn't that the whole reson AASI was created? Snowboarders didn't want to be like skiers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 Does AASI/PSIA even recognize a forward facing alpine stance? they sure don't teach it:AR15firin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvedog Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 Does AASI/PSIA even recognize a forward facing alpine stance? they sure don't teach it:AR15firin They used to, but when they started going completely gaga bat**** over that it had to be freestyle was when I got less interested. Mandatory 360s, teaching park and pipe etc to get your level 3. I said no thank you. I am too old to leave the ground except on a big fluffy, steep pow pillow or a fall away drop on a race course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 dare I say it...Burton.In that it started as a great way to develop ,innovate and build credibility, but eventually became a vehicle for stifling innovation,taking over alternative ways of thinking and squashing them,repackaging the same old things over and over,pandering to the adolescent crowd and leaving grownups out in the cold. I learned a lot of valuable things during the twenty years I spent as a member and I'm proud to have spoken up and even contributed in some small way,but it was a so called 'trenchin session' clinic at Spring Symposium last season that showed me that their leadership have little to offer in the way of innovation or forward thinking when it comes to snowboarding for grownups,especially for transitioning skiers. I started fading away from the doctrine when I saw this happening years ago.I took things like freestyle accreditation as a personal athletic challenge but not as a way to advance my standing as a member. Despite Bobdea's blanket statements about 'AASI types' that I take offense to in another thread,his statement does shed some light on the fact that a lot of great teachers have been turned off by the AASI and ski school directors who have just supported the status quo in the last few years. BTW,I voted yes.If I leave a somewhat circle shaped line 8 meters in diameter with a 16 meter board,did I not 'steer' the board into making this line(pure carve) in the snow? When I first was tested in PSIA on what 'progressive steering' was,this was what they were talking about;input resulting in shaping of a turn,dictating the shape,whether skidded or carved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 BTW,I voted yes.If I leave a somewhat circle shaped line 8 meters in diameter with a 16 meter board,did I not 'steer' the board into making this line(pure carve) in the snow? Not necessarily. You tilted the board up to 60 degrees and rode the sidecut. A dead weight could do this, if it could be balanced. A dead weight cannot steer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 In the PSIA "tech talks" I've been in the examiners used the term steering in it's generic form to mean altering the direction of travel of the board(s). In my 1st post I looked it up in Ron Lemasters book "skiers edge" (non-PSIA). No where in any manual is steering limited to (albeit inclusive of) flat rotational movements i.e. yaw as it is in Jacks mind. A board in a carve is in a constant state of steering or it would go off on a tangent to the arc of the carve. That state of steering is maintained through the control of attack angle and pressuring movements, niether of which is completely static in a perfect carve as "dead weight" would suggest. We're working in 4 dimensions here not the 2 dimensions of yaw. TID; timing, intensity, duration, of a blend of movements. Jack is correct in that yaw is not part of a "pure carve". It really comes down to the definition of steering, of which yaw(rotation) is only one of many methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 Not necessarily. You tilted the board up to 60 degrees and rode the side cut. A dead weight could do this, if it could be balanced. A dead weight cannot steer. This has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 why? you could easily build a rig out of 2x4's and a cinder block to do this with skis. same thing, really. a carve does not depend on steering. (or rotating your upper body for that matter.) this is the entire point of The Norm exercise - to show you that you don't have to actually <i>do</i> anything other than lean, to get a snowboard to carve. that is a big "ah ha!" moment for many people who have always thought they had to kick or push the board around with their feet in order to turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 I am going to very politely agree to disagree!:lol:It all starts with the ability to lead with your eyes (head) and upper body, always. :D I agree about eyes and head, and yeah, my upper body often rotates, although not excessively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 Jack, if you shake that ass a bit more and get more dynamic with the lever that is your upper body, you just might discover a hole new realm of turnability that you never knew existed. heh. we should probably ride together before continuing this discussion. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted March 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 ...turn the good tech discussion into a pissing match! Way to go. I guess you would both have to visit each other's home turf, and ride Eastern ice and Western butter. Post the videos of both session and let the audience decide... Speaking of wich, we did see some vids of both of you already... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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