Comment if you have lower back issues

[Bobby Buggs]

I had a L5 discectomy 5 years ago. The injury left me with some foot drop numbness in my toes and some significant atrophy in my shin and calf.

I have been able to ride fairly well without pain for the past 4 seasons. Well last week I wanted to try out this 173 Rentiger I have. To do it with out booting out I had to get into the 60s, highest I have been in quite a while. I enjoyed riding the board but since that day My back has been flamed up:flamethro. I think being at the higher angles caused me to use my hips and back in a way my back cant deal with any more. Anyone think this cold be true or am I just a broken down old man.:(

[tahoetrencher]

The last three years or so (I'm 47)

My 18cm boards put me in the high sixties degrees

I got knocked out briefly (slammed square in the lower back) three years ago riding and have been contributing my back pain to that?

Beginning to feel a little broken down myself; on the other hand, my knees, ankles and left elbow tell me when it's going to snow:biggthump

[csquared]

I don't think your notion about binding angles is strange at all. I have had lower back pain many times since I started riding and I have thought a lot about the causes. I think there is a natural tendency with higher angles to initiate turns by throwing your weight forward to get the nose of the board carving. One tends to do this by dropping forward, putting more weight on the back foot and driving into the front of the boot. When you do this your whole body is hanging forward off your back foot and all of the muscles that run up the back of your leg and butt to your lower back are stressed to the max and your upper back is also tensed because of the crouch position. By comparison, with lower angles, it is easier to angulate and one can roll the board up on edge and work with the sidecut to initiate the turn, placing a lot less stress on the back.

When I ride higher angles (as I have had to do with my VSR board), I find myself reflexively falling back into my old nose-riding ways. I think this is partly because most of the board has a 17 m sidecut radius with a small section of 11 m sidecut near the nose and turn initiation can feel a little sleepy compared to my other boards. However, I have found that if I conciously start my turns from my feet moving up to my knees and keep my hips and upper body neutral until needed for higher G turns, the board behaves well and I don't experience back pain.

The ways I have dealt with llower back pain in the past have included riding with my boots in 'walk' mode (this makes it almost impossible to pressure the nose of the board and helps promote turn initiation through more refined technique), riding lower angles, moving bindings further forward (to move more weight toward the nose), and doing stretches aimed at loosening the lower back before I ride.

[Bobby Buggs]

Chris you are SO right on about forward loading. I relatively Never fall while riding and actually fell over the front of the the Volkl on a toeside. I was wondering to my self what the hell I was doing:confused: to fall like that. All I can say is my back is not happy this week with pain going down my leg. Something I have not had to deal with for quite a while. Im probably gonna skip tomorrow and let it cool off a little more. NO more high angles for Me:nono:

[Dave ESPI]

Not sure if this would be of any help, but I have sympathy for ya. I have an everted coxxix and a good bit of "sway back" in the shape of my spine. I've never been able to touch my toes. I did exercises for years, and they helped, especialy with snowboarding. When rotating left, it is hard for me to get my right shoulder around all the way sometimes without feeling a twinnge in my lower back. Having fallen quite a few times on my tailbone as a child, it caused S1 and L5 to compact, and thus far, I've been lucky to not herniate it. I sleep on my stomach, or side in a slight fetal position with a blanket or small pillow between my knees. It helps a lot especialy after a day of riding. DOANS nighttime back relief medication and a heating pad or icy hot at times works wonderfully when it flairs up.

HTH.

EDIT: I'm not a fan of one particular RT either. I had one and it was insanely snappy and had a spring-board effect and would hook hard when I would least expect it. I gave it to a friend and he loves it despite that board having handed a good fair share people a "yardsale" or two (himself included). But to each their own:)

[SunSurfer]

Age 50, up until a year ago increasingly frequent intermittent back muscle spasm and spine pulled out of alignment when this happens. Other people, even my wife, can see the "step" in the line of the spinous processes (the bits you can feel on your back) when it happens. Ride 65 front and 60 rear, no cant and only rear heel lift.

Referral to physiotherapist who works as part of a combined sports/spinal problem multi-disciplinary team inc. specialist spinal surgeons.

As part of diagnostic process, nerve root compression by disc was considered. This type of problem has its' own specific set of exercises.

Prescribed a series of exercises, for me to increase my abdominal core muscle strength and stretches to increase hamstring flexibility. Transformed!! Since beginning the exercises attacks much less common, and when occur much shorter in duration. Able to surf again without getting spasm, previously would be getting it just about every time after 30 min or so. Boarding not a problem, just keep doing the exercises!!

As I get older I just need more maintenance.

SunSurfer

[Beckmann AG]

When you repeatedly subject your body to fluctuating loads while cantilevered at the waist, it is a matter of when, not if, your back gives you grief.

It is likely that when you changed your angles (and board), you recruited previously idle muscles in your riding/balancing. Muscles under tension have to anchor in at least two places, one of which may be on the wrong side of the tracks. As the little ditty indicates, the leg bone is connected to the hip bone etc.

Time to ride smarter, not 'harder'. Find the video clip of Lindsey Vonn that Jack posted awhile ago. Ignore the text. Forget about angulation. Notice the overall lack of tension in her body, and the effect of that on glide and posture.

Next time out, take an inventory of what fires off and when, then ask yourself if you can replace muscle with mechanism.

Volkls tend to be a bit soft in the nose, so be careful with the inputs.

[Bobby Buggs]

Well I can say I have been blessed with many gifts in life but Flexibility was not one of them. Some of this could be attributed to my lack of stretching in the past month and riding every weekend. Im going to look for the beginners class at the near by Yoga place. Its difficult for me to do some of the poses especially some of the 1 leg stuff since my lower right leg has such muscle loss and atrophy due to the nerve compression 5 years ago. Its so frustrating having such poor balance on 1 leg, ok waahhh:o

[Thor VonRippington]

I experience lower back pain pretty much after every day of riding... especially if I get right into a car for long periods. It feels like a muscle cramp and for sure pulls a disk out (or something) because the pain is intense and I have to pop it back in place pretty much daily. Sure... snow conditions, equipment, setup... those are factors. But the bottom line (I think) is my core is shaped like a twelve pack. When I was younger and made of superball material, I could just go do whatever I wanted to do no matter the intensity level. Now I'm going to have to work harder for the sports I love. We just had a rec center open in our area... hope I can get my twelver in there and knock a few cans off. Until that happens I will continue to medicate and use a crutch when it gets too painful to ride.

[BobD]

I get some lower back ache sometimes after some skiing, and alpine boarding. Mostly, it happens if some has gone wrong in a turn, like riding out some chatter after hitting a rut mid turn.

I think there are a couple of things which have contributed to this. One is that I have put on a couple inches around the waist, and the second is that I have not maintained my core strength as I used to. Both these things are related. You can't expect to be able to take the knocks/wear and tear of riding hard without being fit enough to to it. Alternative is to take it a lot easier.

BobD

[emorris]

I used to have issues with sciatica, drop foot, numbness, etc. It was the L4-L5 area. Pretty much hurt every day. Neurologist suggested surgery. I never had it done.

I am lucky enough to spend a significant amount of time in China. I started going to a Chinese doctor who practices something called TUI NA. It is like Chinese Chiropractic.

She started by going down my spine, disk by disk, pressing lightly with her finger tips on either side of the spine. There must be points there. When she gets to a vertebra that is out of line, it feels like she is pushing with all her might and hurts. Somehow she can feel that its out of line before I tell her. After she has checked the whole spine and made notes on my back (on the skin with a felt tip) she starts manipulating the vertebra, hips, legs to put things back. It took some months because as careful as I was after the treatment, sometimes things would just pop out. She said it was like the disk takes a set and it needs to re-adjust to the new (correct) position of the bones.

For the past three years I have seldom had any back pain, and then just for a day or two. Usually after something like 20 hour plane rides, falling from a skate board or something.

One weird thing was that fixing the L4-L5 area messed up L3. That has nerves that go to the knees and bladder. I went to an orthopedist who took all kinds of x-rays. He stated: "The knees are fine. There is nothing there. Sometimes our bodies just have pain. You have to live with it." WHAT THE F???

I went back to see the doctor in China and in about a month of treatments every few days, the knees are better too.

If you look up Tui Na and TCM on Google you should be able to find someone. Be sure to let them know that you want bones manipulated. Some places say Tui Na, and really only offer massage for soft tissue. Try to find someone who indicates that they are from a large city hospital in China. Nanjing, Beijing, Shanghai.

If anyone would like help, I am fluent in Chinese. I would be willing to call and talk to the practitioner to help with communication or vetting them.

Eric

[Bobby Buggs]

Thanks Thor, just purchased a "Crutch"

[Chris]

A number of previous posts have mention core weakness. I think there is something key in this. Last year I was in less than good shape (as a 53 yr. old) and had a number of "tweaks" in my back from hard falls, less than good form doing squats, running when tired, and finally pulling some pretty good G's on heelside turns. The result was a bulging disk in the L5 S1 joint which really bloomed during a trip out west with my son and my brother last year. I could stand, or I could sit, but moving from one position to the other was extremely painful. Like getting off the lift. Buckets of Advil, ice, and stretching if I could, kept things manageable. .Sometimes I would stand up, and without warning fall to my knees in pain. What fun. Come spring, one of the only things I could do without pain was ride my road bike. Must have been the stretched out position. I was prescribed Lyrica, which I think originally was developed for diabetics to calm the inflamed nerve endings they are prone to, but a side benefit was noticed for nerves irritated by disk mis-alignment. This helped, and things finally subsided enough that I started working on my core strength and balance by mid summer. Bosu balls and exercise balls were key. Most of my strength training was done with less weight and some kind of core challenge involved. I felt a bit like a sideshow in the gym doing upright rows, cable chops, and one legged squats with a bosu and so forth, but the pay off has been good core strength and balance. No pain this winter, and if I get myself off balance or hit some crap snow I usually can recover much more quickly and without straining something. I also did a lot of stretching and got some good massage when I could afford it. For what it's worth, it worked for me. Core strength and stretching. Aging sucks.

I rarely run angles higher than 55/50.

[Michael Pukas]

I've had really bad back problems a few years ago. That's why I quit carving for 6 years. My disk between the bottom of the spine and the sacrum was fused at birth - I have one less disk than I am supposed to have, and the disk above that - L5 - is crushed, nearly bone on bone. Don't recall ever having an injury, not sure what happened. My back problems were so bad I was constantly in massive pain and very limited range of motion. Shooting pains down my right leg. Really, really bad.

I credit riding a carving board with steep angles to aggravating the problem. I don't think it really matter whether the angles are 50, 60, 65 what ever, there all steep. The problem with snowboarding in general is it's an asymmetrical activity. We're not doing the same thing on each side. And, we're putting our bodies into unnatural positions, particularly twisting the hips. That's partly why I got into tele skiing, and because I thought it was cool. But nobody cares that you tele.

I tried lots of different therapies, treatments and PT for a long time, mostly to not much avail. One day I heard a guy on AM radio named Pete Egoscue. He has developed a method for treating pain in the body called Pain Free. I did his exercises and they helped quite a bit. Got me to a point where I could do other exercises. They're worth checking out - not traditionally what you think of as exercises for pain.

Next I got in Pilates. I've done yoga for years, but that didn't help my back at all - aggravated it more. Pilates takes core strength to a new level. That made a world of difference for me. I don't go to any classes now, but I still use some exercises and techniques I learned in my own workouts. Be careful with jumping into a yoga class if you've never done it - there are many type and styles of yoga, some better than others, and you can really hurt yourself without knowing what you are doing. Doing yoga doesn't work with a typical Western male mindset.

Finally a couple years ago I went to see a private "therapist" (I use that term very loosely, as that's not at all what he is), and he worked on me for one session, popped my hips back into place, and that was it. Fixed! I didn't go to see him for my back problems, or even tell him I was having back problems, but he found what was wrong and fixed me. Three years later I have no pain or stiffness at all, and I'm carving again without any back problems. If any one wants to see him PM me and I'll give you his contact info. He's in Carbondale, CO.

The keys, I think, are, as a couple of guys stated above - core strength and flexibility. But you've got to do it right, or you can aggravate the problem. Just busting out a hundred crunches per day won't cut it. And most importantly as Beckamnn said - ride smarter, not harder. My main focus now is trying understand how to use body mechanics to rail better, not muscle strength. How to relax into the turn and stay upright -check out the pic of Snowman in the Summit thread - relaxed, upright, and layin' it over! Well done! (I hate to say that, as his head's already too big to fit in my car).

[Sultan Guy]

If you want to have great flexibility, stronger core, and less back issues take up yoga. Two 60-90 minute sessions each week will do wonders for your carving and life in general. You can start slow and get deeper into the stretches as your body adapts.

Your wife/girlfriend will see a difference in you as well.:)

[Steve Prokopiw]

or 'deep water running' has me feeling at least a few years younger,jointwise.I have been working/stretching around a compressed disc for some time and have never done any therapy or core work that even comes close to the theraputic effectiveness of running in a swimming pool with a float belt.The all body workout is amazing and as hard or easy as you make it.Water is progressively resistant so the harder or faster you move the more resistance.

I started doing triathlon and duathlon this past summer and the running has brought every old snowboard and weightlifting injury to the surface.A p.t. friend of me insisted that I try a workout in the pool after I told him I thought I might have to limp through the 13 miles at the end of a half ironman I did in Austin in October.

I had a terrible time the final six miles in a half-iron a month before,but had already paid for the plane ticket and entry in Austin,so by God ,I was going to do it even if I had to walk.I did several pool workouts after being taught proper form and technique and ended up taking four minutes off the distance from just four weeks prior,even though I was not yet 100 percent.

Pool running is now part of my lifestyle.

[mohouck]

I was having major issues with my lower back. MRI showed no disk between L4 and L5. After a year of physical therapy, I had little improvement.

Then I heard a podcast about the benefits of going barefoot and about the Vibram Five Finger shoes:

http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/

I got a pair of the KSO's and began wearing them exclusively (this was in August). Within one month my flexibility returned to what it had not been in 10 years and the physical therapist said I didn't need therapy anymore! I was sold and got three more pairs. I now wear them almost 100% of the time (I have to wear my boots for carving :) ).

Now when my back hurts, I take a walk or a jog in my FiveFingers and everything feels better. The PE teachers at my school (my day job is as an assistant principal) now all wear them and they swear by them.

Check them out.

[Steve Prokopiw]

Although I ended up going with the Nike Free shoes.Similar reasoning but not separate toes and some cushioning.The tread is very flexible and deeply segmented to provide as much road feel as possible.Learning to run barefoot too.The Frees and the guidance to run efficiently have helped me greatly.I used the Frees to do the afformentioned triathlon.

I will probably 'graduate' to the Five Fingers eventually.Amazing how simple some of the best solutions are.

[redriver]

... a bunch of old men at the coffee shop, discussing our ills (so I'll contribute). Chronic low-back ache, and back has been "going out" occasionally for about 10 years now. I get the "S" shape for a week, can't straighten up. Not much shows on the MRI- just some L4/L5 aging. MD used to tell me to "take 200 mg of ibuprofen 3 times a day" and rest. After a week of laying around each time, decided there had to be something better. Went to PT and they put me to work instantly- heat, stretching and exercise- and it works (if I would just put in the work between episodes).

Sidebar- Sitting at the office is the worst thing I can do, and I actually feel better after a weekend of riding. But I stretch religiously now before riding. And the hot tub is perhaps the best "investment" I ever made.

[pebu]

I'm only 26 and I've got back issues. Nothing I've had any surgery for or anything yet, but it does seem like my back issues are causing some general leg discomfort/pain.

[BobD]

I'm only 26 and I've got back issues. Nothing I've had any surgery for or anything yet, but it does seem like my back issues are causing some general leg discomfort/pain.

Which reminds me, I used to get back aches in my twenties. I took up white water kayaking about that time, and I think that particular exercise (just about every weekend) was great for my back. I never really had any problems with it until the last few years, when I stopped doing much paddling. This seems to reinforce what's been said already. That stretching, and solid exercise that builds core strength, is the way to prevent back problems.

Oh, and a comfortable bed.

BobD

[Sailnboard]

Great responses by everyone especially on building your core strength and flexibility.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

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I had L4/5 S1 extractions 10 years ago and after PT which focused on core and flexibility I was able to keep snowboarding (although I sold my freestyle board and avoid the park). When I don't keep up the exercises I hurt really badly. Leg strength and muscle flexibility was as important as abs and back muscles.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

I recently bought Prior 4WD, bumped my angles from 30/20 to 55/48 and spent the past 2 days carving much deeper and harder than ever before and could barely move this morning (I did fall a # of times getting used to the sweet spot which probably aggravated things). Advil and ice the night after and then Advil and heat the next day allowed me to get to work today.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

I liked the discussion on diff riding techniques.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

I wonder if other BOLs have tried chiropractors, I always wondered if they could help.<o:p></o:p>

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[b0ardski]

enthusiastic +1! on Chiropractic (western or chinese) & supportive comfortable bed.

at 47 I've neglected my core strength and streching (lazyboy syndrome rather than couch potato) over the last year which started the season in possibly the worst shape of my life. Now at mid ride season I'm doing better with much less pain from chronic L2-L3 disc compression than early season.

I do believe that relaxed efficient carving technique and stance allowed me to get away with good riding while my six pack looks & feels more like a Keg.

The ball is my friend:biggthump

[Thor VonRippington]

I wonder if other BOLs have tried chiropractors, I always wondered if they could help.<O:p></O:p>

<O:p></O:p>

Where's Dr. D when you need him?

We want you input here doc

[BDZal]

I'd suggest a lot of hip work, including various single leg exercises like lunges and one-leg deadlifts, and a good bit of hip flexor work. I know all the stuff that goes around about hip flexors usually needing stretching and what-not, but I have gotten some good results from working them. Really, a good variety of hip exercises is probably needed. The hips are your real movement core.... the abs and midsection are primary stabilizers for the spine, but are also good at taking up the slack when it comes to muscular imbalances. With all of the twisting we do at the midsection, it definitely makes a lot of sense to train the heck out of your midsection. There's a guy who writes training articles who also trains a good number of baseball players, and he contends that a major purpose of the abs is to resist rotation of the spine. Sounds like something we could benefit from a lot (also watch out for oblique imbalances between heelside/toeside). But don't neglect the hips. If your hips are out of whack, which they most likely are from alpine snowboarding, then you should address them as well. Switch your bindings around to the opposite stance sometimes. That would probably help more than anything, especially if you've been snowboarding for a long time.