Drunken epiphany or stroke of genius

[photodad2001]

While having a few tonight I was playing my violin as I usually do and while putting it away I released the tension of my bow before putting it away. At this point I was reminded of the tension rods that the Tinklers use and had an idea. What if instead of placing rods on the nose and tail sections of the board there was some sort of full length adjustment that you could increase or decrease the ride of the board. Now a violin bow is a heavily "cambered" piece that relies on a constant tension. If boards were made with say 3 times the camber, or more, then placing strings or some sort of fibers or perhaps even an aditional top sheet that you could use to adjust the stiffnes of the board depending on the conditions and riding style. Not sure if I have anything here, but perhaps some of the R&D people here might have a say on.

[BobD]

http://www.volkl.com/ski_07/power_switch.html

BobD

[tex1230]

^^ I skied those last season. Excellent ski, but I didn't notice the difference that much. For a lighter skier, I think it would be a true one-ski quiver (with the 3-position switch) - but at 225+ I think the difference in flex becomes almost unnoticeable.

Also it's a pretty expensive ski - you could get both a groomer-specific and a powder-specific ski for the price of the one pair of volkl

[jtslalom]

Leave it to the Germans at Volkl for technology. Late at night if there is an idea floating in some ones mind in some part of the world, through some sort of extra sensory perception Volkl scientists will research it, engineers design it, and professionals test it before that person wakes up in the morning.

[TheTruth]

A lot of this stuff like the Volkl Powerswitch is a marketing gimmick for the recreational skier. Every year, consumer skis have a new "design" that will claim to absolutely, positively make the 5 day per year skier "world class". Funny thing is the true "world class" skiers, e.g. FIS racers and free stylers, have none of these gimmicks, and the basic construction techniques for their skis was perfected years ago.

Remember, the "big" ski companies business model is based on volume sales each season. Every year, they need to create a reason why the recreational skier MUST buy all new equipment. If you look at the products from a small company such as Stockli, whose business model is based on quality (not quantity) of product, you will never see a great variation in design from year to year. They know what works and they don't need a flashy marketing scheme to sell their product.

Substitute "Burton" for "big ski companies" in the above paragraph and you have the business model for most of the snowboard industry as well.

[photodad2001]

http://www.volkl.com/ski_07/power_switch.html

BobD

Yep, that's the concept I was thinking about. Crap, the guys at Volkl must play violin too. :D

[photodad2001]

Leave it to the Germans at Volkl for technology. Late at night if there is an idea floating in some ones mind in some part of the world, through some sort of extra sensory perception Volkl scientists will research it, engineers design it, and professionals test it before that person wakes up in the morning.

They must have the VOX from the Batman movie with Jim Carey as the Riddler. At least I didn't wake up to read my post and realized I had more to drink than I thought and had writen some ridiculous idea like reverse camber.

[Sultan Guy]

The Truth speaks the truth.

If this idea worked well then the Olympic racers would be all using it.

Technology is no substitute for great technique and ability.

[bobdea]

I agree with "the truth"

some of this stuff does work but not well enough that it out performs high quality current race stuff.

BTW, photodad, things like this get pricey.

[BobD]

Olympic skiers have different skis for specific conditions (or at least tuned for conditions). I think they would be a bit pissed if Volkl said, we can only give you one pair of skis this season.

Average Joe has one pair of skis for all conditions. A little flex adjustment might help him a bit.

BobD

[TheTruth]

...Average Joe has one pair of skis for all conditions. A little flex adjustment might help him a bit.

BobD

It might help, if this stuff actually worked. For the past few years, I have been an on snow tester for a local ski shop. We get together to test and demo next years skis and snowboards to make a recommendation to the owner what to buy for the next season. I'm telling you the vast majority of this stuff is conceived by the Marketing Departments, not R&D. I've played with all this adjustable stuff on all types of snow conditions, and I can't tell a bit of difference in performance. Bottom line is give me race stock, or free ride equipment based on race stock for true performance. I don't want non-functional gimmicks that end up breaking off the ski/board after 3 runs.

The fact is the Alpine snowboard community has it good. Everything from Donek, Prior, Coiler, Kessler, SG. etc is based off, or modified from race stock.

[BlueB]

I had the chance to ride Tinkler TNT for about 2 days. I definitelly felt the difference in different settings of Snowstix. On the down side, the full system (Tinkler Plate + snowstix) is really heavy and I constantly worried that the stix might get broken if I had really bad crash or someone ran into me. One pretty much can have 2 custom boards built to cover the conditions and performance range of Tinkler, for the similar price...

[Fastskiguy]

A lot of this stuff like the Volkl Powerswitch is a marketing gimmick for the recreational skier.

And not a new idea either, this kind of thing has been around for decades. And it doesn't work either. Well, it hasn't worked, there's always a chance it'll will someday.

Now on the topic of brainstorming ideas, I'm all for it. You look at modern ski technology and these skis could have been made in the 60's or 70's, no problem, we just suffered along because we were ignorant and nobody tried shorter skis with more sidecut.

I'd say a variable sidecut ski with some rocker will be a good bet for high performance since it's working so well for snowboards. As for the next snowboard technology....keep brainstorming :)

[TheTruth]

You look at modern ski technology and these skis could have been made in the 60's or 70's, no problem, we just suffered along because we were ignorant and nobody tried shorter skis with more sidecut.

Actually, they tried shorter skis at one point for learning (Head, IIRC), and it was well know that increased sidecut would allow a ski to turn quicker. One problem was plastic technology was not up to the task of allowing the boot companies to produce a boot that worked with increased sidecut. Try plastic boot from the 1970's on a modern ski. The ski simply will not work the same because the boot can't drive it laterally. The length thing was driven by skier mentality as much as anything else. Everyone knew longer was better. :lol:

If you were an expert skier, and your buddies caught you on something less than 207cm, you would never hear the end of it.

[Fastskiguy]

Aren't modern boots just recycled old ones? Like the grand prix and the doberman? Plus I believe that lateral flex in ski boots is an old wives tale, that no plastic ski boot has ever flexed laterally in the history of the world, at least while mounted in a ski. I'm not sure I can buy that ski tech was slow because of the boots. But I sure remember the grave concern running a 201cm slalom ski-how could it possibly work being so short? Everybody knows you need 205's. Even the K2 VO Slalom at 204 was a big suspect but since it worked for the mahre brothers it go a pass despite it's length. I'm still chalking it up to narrowsightedness (if that's a word) but I'd sure like to blame it on something else :)

[BlueB]

From what I can remember, all my ski boots were quite stiff in all directions. Talking mostly 80' stuff, though. I thought that major shortcomming of the older ski boots, for carving skis, is TOO STIF forward flex?

Back in Yugoslavia, I got a pair of Elan Omni Lite (successor to RC04) in 190 length, in my late teens. They were so great that I never upgraded them later, although I've grown 3"-4". Skied them all the way to GS bronze at provincial championship (university level). Later, at few rare occasions when I rented the straight skis, I took 195s. None of my buddies ever darred to tease about my ski size ;)

The old, now dellaminated, Elans are still somwhere in my auntie's house, back in the old country...

I stepped on the shaped skis only in 2003, when I mouved to Vancouver from Johannesburg. Never looked back to the "toothpics". I would still ski something up to 185, but spend most of my ski time on 164s...

[philw]

I remember the whole long ski thing too, but if I'd tried the short skis available in that time then I'm sure they would have been "too short". That is, you're kind of locked into the length they decide you should be riding, if you see what I mean. The same thing is true with powder boards: once upon a time they had to be big, now they don't.

The weird thing to me about all this is that snowboard/ ski stuff seems to veer off into paths which make little sense retrospectively at least. Personally I think soft boots are in that class, although that's contentious. Whatever, once something's locked in and those Chinees factories are spewing the gear out, it's hard to shift.

[TheTruth]

Aren't modern boots just recycled old ones? Like the grand prix and the doberman? Plus I believe that lateral flex in ski boots is an old wives tale, that no plastic ski boot has ever flexed laterally in the history of the world, at least while mounted in a ski. I'm not sure I can buy that ski tech was slow because of the boots. But I sure remember the grave concern running a 201cm slalom ski-how could it possibly work being so short? Everybody knows you need 205's. Even the K2 VO Slalom at 204 was a big suspect but since it worked for the mahre brothers it go a pass despite it's length. I'm still chalking it up to narrowsightedness (if that's a word) but I'd sure like to blame it on something else :)

Actually, the construction, geometry, and plastic fomulas used in modern ski boots are vastly different than older ones. When I said that older ski boots wouldn't drive the skis laterally, I did not mean they weren't laterally stiff enough, it's just their flex patterns (or lack of flex), and plastic composition was not engineered for skis with increased sidecut. The "shaped" ski revolution wasn't just about skis changing, it was also about boot engineering changing too.

[bobdea]

I'd say a variable sidecut ski with some rocker will be a good bet for high performance since it's working so well for snowboards. As for the next snowboard technology....keep brainstorming :)

that describes pretty much most race skis from this decade.

[BobD]

that describes pretty much most race skis from this decade.

So it's the same crap as shaped skis in the 90s ? - too expensive to change production, and offer to the masses. In a way we are lucky to be reliant on small manufacturers for alpine boards, I guess.

BobD

[TheTruth]

So it's the same crap as shaped skis in the 90s ? - too expensive to change production, and offer to the masses. In a way we are lucky to be reliant on small manufacturers for alpine boards, I guess.

BobD

I'm not sure if I understand this comment. Many of the high end ($$$) all mountain skis have the same technology (modified for their intended use) as the FIS race stock. Are you asking does the same technology/construction/shaping get into the mass volume entry level skis found in the big box sports stores? Most likely not, due to the price point and the fact that the type of skier that buys these skis couldn't tell the difference anyway while the are skidding down the hill in a flying wedge! The same for the snowboards sold for the masses. The stuff they sell at Dick's Sporting Goods isn't top grade stuff either. You won't find a top of the line Palmer, not alone a Kessler, Donek, or Prior soft boot board in these type of stores.

[tufty]

You won't find a top of the line Palmer, not alone a Kessler, Donek, or Prior soft boot board in these type of stores.

I'm guessing we have a different mentality over here; "Au Vieux Campeur" is almost exactly "Dick's Sporting Goods" except that it's a chain and thus even less likely to "take a chance" :

http://www.auvieuxcampeur.fr/nos-produits/snowboard/materiel/planches-alpines

Yep, Kessler boards in stock, and actually available to handle in-store.

Getting back on track, though - What I understood Bob to be saying was nothing to do with stores, who largely don't even recognise alpine exists, let alone stock it, and everything to do with manufacturers - we are lucky in some respects to be reliant on a few small manufacturers, because they are willing and able to take the risk, to go all-out to make something better - without having to cater to the low-end market they can spend time producing something world-class. I'm not sure I personally buy this 100%, but I can certainly see where he's coming from.

[BobD]

I'm not sure if I understand this comment. Many of the high end ($$$) all mountain skis have the same technology (modified for their intended use) as the FIS race stock. Are you asking does the same technology/construction/shaping get into the mass volume entry level skis found in the big box sports stores? Most likely not, due to the price point and the fact that the type of skier that buys these skis couldn't tell the difference anyway while the are skidding down the hill in a flying wedge! The same for the snowboards sold for the masses. The stuff they sell at Dick's Sporting Goods isn't top grade stuff either. You won't find a top of the line Palmer, not alone a Kessler, Donek, or Prior soft boot board in these type of stores.

I would be interested to know of any skis that I could actually buy, that are like a kessler, or NSR board (aside from kessler, and palmer).

BobD

[NMU Alpine Boarder]

I'm not sure if I understand this comment. Many of the high end ($$$) all mountain skis have the same technology (modified for their intended use) as the FIS race stock. Are you asking does the same technology/construction/shaping get into the mass volume entry level skis found in the big box sports stores? Most likely not, due to the price point and the fact that the type of skier that buys these skis couldn't tell the difference anyway while the are skidding down the hill in a flying wedge! The same for the snowboards sold for the masses. The stuff they sell at Dick's Sporting Goods isn't top grade stuff either. You won't find a top of the line Palmer, not alone a Kessler, Donek, or Prior soft boot board in these type of stores.

Just to be fair, the "Big Box" stores base their inventory on what they can sell at a given store... I sell skis/boards at a Dick's here in the Chicago area... In our inventory, we don't really carry any "high end" stuff. The best Skis I have in stock right now are probably some Salomon X-Wing Tornados. They are paired with Salomon Z-12s and have a nice $799 price tag on them... Overall they seem to be nice skis from what I read about them...

The problem is that the people that are coming into my store are just what you described: People that bomb the hill in a wedge-tuck... They are going to see that dollar amount and freak... They can't justify spending that much on skis...

Now what about a store out in Denver? Is everyone that shops there going to be a hack? Of course not... Just look at the area... Those stores will carry the better skis... Out there, the clientele know that if you want a good pair, $700 is about the lowest you want to go and that some pairs can go $1000+... It's all about what you can sell in an individual store...

We see the same thing in Snowboards... Burton is our big seller to no surprise... Here's where it gets interesting though: Our store, along with others in the midwest can be used as an outlet for the chain as a whole... At my store, I have no chance at selling a $550 Burton Custom let alone a $1200 Vapor... Out west however, there is a chance someone is willing to drop that...

Once the summer hits, the high end boards that went unsold out west come to the midwest for clearance... Now here in IL, I can offer someone a new Dominant or Operator for $400-500, or I can offer them a V-8 EST Board that was $650, but is now marked down to $429... Here in the Midwest, the buyer seems like they got a steal on a board... The store maximized their return on the board as well...

The chain stores will carry the high end gear, but only if they feel they can sell it... Many people within the hobby still turn to local shops out of habit, comfort, and familiarity... And this is what is saving the mom and pop shops from dying out, like in so many other niche hobbies... The big stores have just not found a way to make a profitable foray into the high end market just yet...

[TheTruth]

I would be interested to know of any skis that I could actually buy, that are like a kessler, or NSR board (aside from kessler, and palmer).

BobD

Any current FIS compliant GS race ski (not the consumer stuff). These are what Kessler bases his snowboard designs on.