Now Im NOT a quiver guy

[bobdea]

The deffinition of <b>damp</b> as it relates to snowboard construction:

1. To check or retard the energy, to deaden.

2. To restrain or discourage force.

3. To cause a decrease in amplitude.

The deffinition of <b>lively/snappy/pop</b> as it relates to snowboard construction:

1. Energetic, active, full of life/energy.

2. Quick or sudden in action or performance.

3. Rebounding quickly, springing back.

Saying your board is 'damp but scary snappy' is like saying your board is 'soft but extremely stiff'.

They are complete opposites.

If your board is damp then it cannot be “scary snappy”.

It sounds like you are confusing good edge hold with dampness.

Titanal and other high-strength aluminum alloys improve the torsional rigidity, which improves edge hold.

Titanal alone will not make a board damp/dead, you can get more dampness by adding rubber to a non-metal board than you would get if you just add titanal and nothing else to a board.

no, half truth

frequency I think has a lot to do with it. many of us that have had madds and doneks have said board X is damp but snappy. my metal top prior is probably the most damp board I've owned and is not super snappy but it's not dead either.

I think this is a area people confuse dead and damp, they are different. take a old beater like a factory prime with 100 days of a heavy rider on it or even something better like worn out burner. neither board is damp but they are DEAD. they don't return **** for energy popping out of a turn they still rattle your skull when you hit the glazed shiny spot that the groomer missed or coming across those end of day ruts that metal boards eat right up, some of the better glass boards do that to a lesser extent like madds but not even in the same ball park really.

modern boards might have as or close to as much snap coming out of a turn as the older glass boards but they isolate you from the unwanted rattling type energy that glass boards don't.

edit: bola is saying something similar

[Istvan]

Bobdea: which part?

[pokkis]

My quess is that first line

[Istvan]

Maybe it's my poor English.... but I would stick to my statement that race boards are specially built for one single purpose and that does not necessarily match the purpose of a funcarver. If it did, we would not see ultra narrow boards, fat EC boards, schtubbies, etc. It does not mean you cannot have fun on a GS or SL board. It just means that you might be looking for something else not being a racer, but a funcarver.

My $0.02. You are entitled to disagree.

[pokkis]

I've spent lots of time on NSR's and some latest Kesslers during last spring time and i think there is lot's of fun for normal carvers too.

I certainly feel myself very comfortable with these new shapes and materials on good or in tough surface.

Just can't wait to get something more exotic under my feet from BTW later this year :rolleyes:

[Istvan]

Great Pokkis, and this is in line with what I said. I never said you cannot have fun on a race stick.

[WinterGold]

I always read about the different needs of "funcarvers" and "racers". Can someone elaborate on this concept (maybe this would deserve a new thread)? Of course everybody has different preferences and therefore there are a lot of different boards out there (and this is good!!!), but raceboards only made for one purpose???

An ultra narrow board would have a much smaller area where it really performs well, no?

A raceboard is not too narrow and not too wide and it carves very well in all kinds of snow conditions. So how is it just made for one single purpose? I know that I did and do all kinds of riding with my "raceboards". I did my snowboard instructor courses on them. I can do some tricks with them, ride powder, etc. For me they are extremely versatile.

And why would a "funcarver" not profit from new design elements like e.g. a decambered nose?

[D.T.]

I have been very happy with my Coiler Metal Am but the lack of pop or nastiness has me searching for a little more of a exciting ride... The Coiler erases many of your technique flaws and that can be a good thing for some but it will not launch you when you want it to.

Actually the remedy is easy. When you order a board from Bruce, tell him exactly what you want. Literally, it's that simple. Bruce will build you whatever you desire, but you must first effectively communicate the ride characteristics that you desire. It becomes easier the more Coiler boards you have ridden because you can discuss the specifics and specs of each board and what characteristics you liked/disliked.

[bobdea]

Maybe it's my poor English.... but I would stick to my statement that race boards are specially built for one single purpose and that does not necessarily match the purpose of a funcarver. If it did, we would not see ultra narrow boards, fat EC boards, schtubbies, etc. It does not mean you cannot have fun on a GS or SL board. It just means that you might be looking for something else not being a racer, but a funcarver.

My $0.02. You are entitled to disagree.

no, you made a anti metal statement. the race boards have led to great metal free carvers and do make better free carvers than most older glass shapes.

IMO a modern wide metal board be it a race shape or not is much more versitile that 99% of the glass boards out there due to being able to handle BAD conditions more easily. I've had a few metal decks, one being a stubby and the others being early race shapes. all of them were better than the all the older boards I've had (lots, maybe 50) metal has something to do with it but the actual shape has as much I think.

the second best free carver I have ever had has been a prior WCR metal the first is a stubby.

[Snowman]

So are metal boards better bacause they are easier to ride? Metal is inherently excellent at hiding riders flaws and require less technique to make them perform so is this why they are so appealing? Is metal madness all driven by current racer trends? Could a race still be won on old school technology?

[Istvan]

I think I have not even mentioned the word 'metal' in my post.... in fact I do agree with you. Metal brought something new and good to this sport. And I also have a titanal board which in my opinion is the best in its category.

I am trying to rephrase my point here with 2 examples:

1) Race boards were built to win races. Nothing else is important there. The EC shape (developed by the Swoard guys, Jacques and Patrice) was built to for ECing. Could you do EC turns on a GS boards? Sure. Even on an SL board. But it will be easier on an EC board. Could you race on an EC board? Sure. But maybe you would not be the fastest.

2) If someone is looking for a huge camber & pop (like Bobby Bugs for whatever reason), he should not be looking for a race board. Race boards are typically flat and damp like a pancake. Why? Because a board with a huge pop would catapult the racer out of the very first turn.... also 'slarving' would be more difficult on such a board.

If you don't agree with the above logic, you actually say that race boards are superior for all purposes. I do agree that race boards and related R&D brought a lot of great stuff to funcarving, too. But that does not mean we all have to ride race boards.

I hope this clarifies.

Best

[Helmut Karvlow]

Yes, a race is won by the rider that has the least amount of F-up's on the course. but equipment helps.

Hey Snowman, I'll see you at the SES ? on my metal board!! maybe I'll bring a glass board for sh--s and giggles.

[Snowman]

Ahhh, Bola, you know me. Always stiring the pot and trying to get people to think long and hard about what they are saying. Indian summer is allowing me to make some more $$$ before the snow gets really good. Thanks for working on the helmet for me. Ill be down in the next week or two.

Helmet Yes, your going to see me at SES and I bring my metal board too.

[WinterGold]

I think I have not even mentioned the word 'metal' in my post.... in fact I do agree with you. Metal brought something new and good to this sport. And I also have a titanal board which in my opinion is the best in its category.

I am trying to rephrase my point here with 2 examples:

1) Race boards were built to win races. Nothing else is important there. The EC shape (developed by the Swoard guys, Jacques and Patrice) was built to for ECing. Could you do EC turns on a GS boards? Sure. Even on an SL board. But it will be easier on an EC board. Could you race on an EC board? Sure. But maybe you would not be the fastest.

2) If someone is looking for a huge camber & pop (like Bobby Bugs for whatever reason), he should not be looking for a race board. Race boards are typically flat and damp like a pancake. Why? Because a board with a huge pop would catapult the racer out of the very first turn.... also 'slarving' would be more difficult on such a board.

If you don't agree with the above logic, you actually say that race boards are superior for all purposes. I do agree that race boards and related R&D brought a lot of great stuff to funcarving, too. But that does not mean we all have to ride race boards.

I hope this clarifies.

Best

I don´t see your logic. You just say that a certain board excels in the area which it was made for - that is pretty obvious, isn´t it?

Of course an EC board will be good for this kind of riding style, etc., but how does this influence the versatility of a raceboard???

For a raceboard the same logic you just applied for other board types, is also true. It is perfect for a race course, but, as I pointed out in my last post, because of its shape, it also performs very well in other areas. So it actually is very versatile.

But of course everybody will choose their boards according to their needs and preferences.

And no board is superior for all purposes!

And, by the way, you did write "metal race boards" ...

[bobdea]

ivstan you said

I do. And I think you are right. Metal race boards are built for racers for ice and ruts, not for us, mortal funcarvers....

You want something exciting? You want pop? You want speed? You want to jump after each and every turn? Your choice is a Virus Berserker 185!

implication to me was kessler like boards with metal construction and the new shapes are not as good as other not so modern boards for the average guy and I just don't think that's true. I am not saying we all should be running GS boards with hangl plates either but there is in between. the new boards handle so well that most everything else is harder to ride for me. easier is good, it makes me suck that much less!

also, generally we as carvers tend to stay on groom. that is the area where a race shape kills.

[Neil Gendzwill]

also, generally we as carvers tend to stay on groom. that is the area where a race shape kills.

Isn't it true that if you like to carve all the way through a turn, a race board isn't ideal? Making the next gate means releasing earlier from the turn than a recreational carver would like. Seems like we've had this discussion lots but my foggy brain is forgetting the conclusion.

[bobdea]

Isn't it true that if you like to carve all the way through a turn, a race board isn't ideal? Making the next gate means releasing earlier from the turn than a recreational carver would like. Seems like we've had this discussion lots but my foggy brain is forgetting the conclusion.

kinda, the trade off though is the newer boards skid easier and it's easier to adjust your turn.

[noschoolrider]

There is Snowboard dictionary defining damp and snap or something like that. On a more technical level, damp is a frequency related thing, so you can have a board that is damp and still able to release energy quickly (snap) in the hands of a well versed user.

When working with research and development departments of some snowboard companies a checklist with definitions was used to evaluate the snowboards, and some of the industry on snow product testing events also used a similar checklist.

Other relative definitions and checklist items were: <b>Absorption</b> (for the measurement of the amount of absorption of vibrations/chatter/amplitude/frequency), <b>Release</b> (for the measurement of how quickly energy was released), and <b>Rebound</b> (for the measurement of how much energy was returned).

As I remember it, the level of dampness was related to amplitude/frequency and the reduction of energy (in reference to rebound and return/release of energy). At the bottom of one of the rating scales were boards dampened to the point of not returning any energy, which were described as totally damp/dead ('totally damp' and 'too damp' were also referred to as 'dead'). Example: When the design/construction of a new board dampens it to the point where no energy is returned, then it was considered dead (several entry level snowboard designs experimented with this characteristic). At the top of that rating scale were boards that returned a lot of energy (they had a lot of snap/pop), which were considered to be lively.

When there was a balance of dampness with liveliness then a board could have variations of moderate dampness and variations of moderate liveliness. However, in order to have damp and snappy there was a noticeable compromise in the amount of dampness or snap, or both.

Finally, I am at a loss as to why a custom board is not made to the rider's recommendation - miscommunication, I hope. If you want snap, you can get it even if it is a metal board.

I agree with both of those statements.

damp is a frequency related thing

If 'damp' is only 'frequency related' and someone says a board is 'too damp' then wouldn't that only mean 'too much frequency was reduced'? In that relationship, it seems the feedback is too limited and not very valuable/meaningful, so it seems there should be more to it than just frequency.

I was taught dampness has a relationship with amplitude/frequency and with the reduction of rebound and the release/return of energy, and that absorption has a relationship with the reduction of frequencies/amplitude/vibrations/chatter without the reduction of rebound energy. However, those definitions may have changed/evolved, or they may have a different meaning/purpose for some board builders.

you can have a board that is damp and still able to release energy quickly (snap)

Yes, you can have moderate dampness that allows for moderate liveliness with the ability to release energy quickly.

The question is, can you have 'damp and scary snappy'?

The way I understand it, in order to maintain the characteristics of 'scary snappy' the dampness needs to be reduced to a very low level because the opposing energy relationships would be drastically offset. That was the point I was trying to make regarding the comment about a board being "damp but scary snappy".

However, if I am totally wrong about this and someone has or knows of a board that is extremely damp and truly scary snappy then please let me know because I would love to learn more about it.

This is an interesting thread, and I think most would agree, that when people have different understandings of words/terms/definitions, then it is difficult to communicate effectively, and it could be an expensive mistake if - as Bola mentioned - there is miscommunication when someone is ordering a custom board.

<b>Additional Information:</b>

Here is a quote from Sean Martin (Donek Snowboards) that indicates that 'damp' is more than just 'frequency related' (the following quote is from June 1st, 2009 - post #238 in the "Chronicles of the Happy Fun Plate at the Bomber Factory"):

<b>Originally Posted by shawndoggy

isn't it the rubber that makes 'em damp, not the metal?</b>

This is very complex issue, but I'll try to shed a bit of light on it.

Most vibrations in boards that are disturbing to the rider happen at a specific range of frequeencies (30-70 HZ). Interestingly enough, the use of titanal laminates alone will eliminate these frequencies. Last season our metal construction had no rubber in it at all. The natural harmonic of these boards is a high pitch ping sound. Those of you who have one have heard them. The metal laminate will basically drive the board's natural harmonic well above the 30 to 70 Hz range.

If you pick up any other manufacturers metal boards, you'll find they make a thud when tapped on. In order to accomplish this, it is necessary to add a fair bit of rubber between the laminates. While the use of metal alone will eliminate those bone jarring frequencies from 30 to 70 HZ, rubber will alter the boards response to exciting forces and dramatically alter how the board feels on snow.

The two materials approach the dampening issue from very different perspectives. The metal alters the natural frequency of the board, while the rubber acts something like a shock absorber you'd find in a car's suspension system.

The new boards I'm working on incorporate the use of both metal and rubber.

Sean Martin

Donek Snowboards Inc.

So, even though the metal in the board eliminates/deflects the undesirable frequencies it still will not make a board damp enough because the metal will not significantly absorb or reduce physical jarring impacts, such as when a board drops down into a race course rut or when it hits the upward slope at the exit of a rut. You need to add rubber to the board to dampen/reduce those types of physical impacts.

Kessler, SG, Prior, Coiler, and now Donek all use rubber in the construction of their metal boards to help assist in making them damp. However, even with two layers of rubber, none of these boards are fully dampened (100% damp) to the point where all vibrations and chatter are eliminated. For proof of this watch the 11/13/2009 Copper Race to the Cup PGS footage in the Video section. In the videos you will see the Kessler and SG boards vibrate and chatter in the ruts of the race course. The boards that have the least amount of chatter are Jasey-Jay’s and Matthew Morison’s Kesslers that have the Canadian Apex ‘canoe paddle’ plate system. One version of this plate system starts just behind the rear binding and extends forward past the front binding - almost halfway to the nose of the board. This system also appears to provide some additional dampening to the front of the board (via adjustable pads) while leaving the back of the board alone so that it can still provide the amount of rebound/snap that it was originally designed for.

Think about it, why do racers need isolating/decoupling plate systems and/or additional external dampening?

Name one snowboard that has enough dampness where the amplitude of resonant frequencies and all undesirable vibrations and chatter are completely eliminated and it still has enough energy and quick response to win world cup races? That combination of enough dampness and enough energy has not been achieved.

All of these things indicate that even with modern alpine snowboard technology and materials, snowboard builders cannot build a board that is 100% damp (dampened to the point where there are NO vibrations or chatter), without having undesirable side effects such as a loss of performance, slow responsiveness, and/or a loss of energy that effects rebound/snap.

So, in order to be objective (instead of subjective) we can measure dampness on a scale of 0 (zero) to 10 where a 0 is a board that has no dampness and a 10 is a board that is 100% damp (dampened to the point where all vibrations and chatter are completely eliminated), and measure snappy on a scale of 0 to 10 where a 0 is a board that has no snap and a 10 is a board that has 100% snap (a scary snap that instantly returns 100% of energy). Under ‘objective’ measurements (even with current technology) it appears to be impossible to build a snowboard that is truly damp (a 10 on the dampness scale) and also scary snappy (a 10 on the snappy scale).

Technically and in reality a snowboard can only be partially damp and partially snappy (not 100% damp and 100% snappy). Even with current technology, 100% dampness and 100% snappiness does not coexist in the same board.

[Bobby Buggs]

Guys, Enough:flamethro Technobabble and arguing about terminology, thats NOT what this was about

[Istvan]

That's what I'm saying. You want pop? Get a Virus... :lol:

[Bordy]

Maybe it's my poor English.... but I would stick to my statement that race boards are specially built for one single purpose and that does not necessarily match the purpose of a funcarver. If it did, we would not see ultra narrow boards, fat EC boards, schtubbies, etc. It does not mean you cannot have fun on a GS or SL board. It just means that you might be looking for something else not being a racer, but a funcarver.

My $0.02. You are entitled to disagree.

True purpose built custom, PGS and PSL board have been the most fun boards I have ridden, I even built my free ride shapes around the race shapes.

Better edge hold, better tracking, = more control less work, for me that means longer days with more runs and higher then normal speeds, which is really what I like personally.

If you have ridden with me then you know what I am about and why I ride race sticks.

If you have never made turns with me then you may not really understand,( this happens often for me here on BOL) My favortite sticks are still SG boards. Right now the Silly Good is the best thing I ride it is a SG stick based on current race gear since no one but Hardbooter really makes a current SG stick in North America.

I really must say that race boards are made for one single purpose, to edge very well,(through all types of bumps and what not) change dirrections, and absorb. these are all things I want my boards to do better then other boards and thats what I think race boards do.

I also just have to add metal boards can be as damp or as snappy as the builder decides, coliers all lay on the damp side, when you compare a coiler as your metal board base line to what metal rides like they are the dampest.

To say that Glass boards are snappier is just silly and is a BOL myth that is just untrue and mostly spread by people who have not ridden a snappy metal stick.

Virus metal-snappy yet still tracks well, you really need to want it.

Prior- same deal, with a bit more playful flex.

Donek- the metal boards I have ridden are snappy but track well.

Madd- these boards have a lot of hook at the end of the turn so a tight radius with a agressive exit makes the board feel even snappier then it is.

Tomahawks - have snap but poor shape.

Kesslers- enough snap that its not uncommen to see ricers up sidedown from to much realese.

SG- damper then Kesslers but in differnt zones, the tail is still stiff to accelerate from but the tip and mid has lots of sponge.

F2s- have lots of playful snap they just are still catching up on shapes.

Coilers- are the dampess board I have ridden with very littl to almost no snap. But at a coast of being very stable and very easy to ride hard without getting bucked.

Again just my opinion based on being a snowboarder.

I also wanted to add to Istvan, that the powered part or pushing section of the turn is much differnt on a true PGS board then many free ride boards, Most free ride board are made to help control speed by providing a turn shape that has a slow and control entrance with a braking middle section as the rider applies pressure against the G forces and usally a controled finish based on the same braking radius.

Race board are made to be pumped at the enterance to gain speed while still controling direction, then to gain more speed in the middle of the turn with out providing the deep bend, trench and braking forces in the middle(like a free ride stick) then to continue to gain speed trough the finish of the turn while maintaining control and the ability to adjust line before changing edges uphill to push for more speed into the next turn. Also since the race coarse changes through out the day the race stick is also made to help the rider pump and glide once the rut is there to use.

A great racer can make the board work well in both the rut and the qualifing surface.

A free rideboard really allows the rider to control speed but not always line and surface changes, If you as a rider like layed out turns with lots of angle and the same radius each time and want the board to provide a platform while still controling speed then a true PGS shape will just not fit the bill. But having new school materails in a old school shape still helps.

If you like to ride fast and vary your turn shape while being able to absorb terrain and surface changes then a race board should work better under a good riders feet.

[Bordy]

I was taught dampness has a relationship with amplitude/frequency and with the reduction of rebound and the release/return of energy, and that absorption has a relationship with the reduction of frequencies/amplitude/vibrations/chatter without the reduction of rebound energy. However, those definitions may have changed/evolved, or they may have a different meaning/purpose for some board builders.

Yes, you can have moderate dampness that allows for moderate liveliness with the ability to release energy quickly.

The question is, can you have 'damp and scary snappy'?

The way I understand it, in order to maintain the characteristics of 'scary snappy' the dampness needs to be reduced to a very low level because the opposing energy relationships would be drastically offset. That was the point I was trying to make regarding the comment about a board being "damp but scary snappy".

However, if I am totally wrong about this and someone has or knows of a board that is extremely damp and truly scary snappy then please let me know because I would love to learn more about it.

By amplitude are you refering to the increase of resination? when you make this staement?

I was taught dampness has a relationship with amplitude/frequency and with the reduction of rebound and the release/return of energy,

and if so do you again mean the same here?

and that absorption has a relationship with the reduction of frequencies/amplitude/vibrations/chatter without the reduction of rebound energy. However, those definitions may have changed/evolved, or they may have a different meaning/purpose for some board builders.

When dealing with most builders we tend to think of dampness as being the ability to deflect resination, to stop it from amplifing to a wavelength that will create chatter, the idea Is to disapate or deflect the energy before it becomes a issue.

To go on to say it creates a reduction of rebound and realese/ return is only a side effect when a board is shaped using traditional camber, and some sort of a continuios radius, New shapes including taper, and rocker are such to offset the lag and energy lose that was created using old school alpine shapes. Again this is a byprodect of the torsional rigdidness metal provides which also increase snap.

Having Taper in the board helps reduce the hook or snap a torsional stiff board will create, many metal boards are tapered to increase tracking also, by this I mean the ability for the edge to remain in the same groove cut by the start of the radius.

When working with Prior last year we worked very hard to make shapes that had a blend of metal and race board dampness and tracking, while still allowing the tail to provide enough energy to create a usable realese.

I would love for any of the riders who have ridden or own the Hardbooter shapes to chime in here with personal experance.

Also the Virus riders know what its like to have dampness and pop how ever it is while losing the suppelness(SP) many other metal board provide, If you know Frank then this is on track with him his boardbuilding style and well the german approch of power and precesion...in short ride virus hard or get bucked..

I will agree its hard to call a great board damp and snappy, and a true mix is really based on personal likes.

Many riders really think the board should rocket of the tail with a hop between turns, but if this happens you are building additional forces that just continue into the next turn when you reload the new edge so you have continued the amount of energy you built from the last turn minus the energy used for the pop but now you must add the energy gained from the reloading?

Many SL boards use this to keep up edge pressure, but on PGS, GS,SG or free ride boards this is just not needed and leads to a decresse in dampness and tracking because you provide vibration and colliding frequinces at the start middle and end of the turn some thing the rubber and metal in the board are trying to devlect of absorb already.

Most PGS board builderes will tell you their goal is to create enough dampness to stop the wavelength when it is little and has not amplified to chatter. If you are very good and your shape is solid in and out of the turn then the tracking should be the proof, and you can still build energy and pop off the tail.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Some great posts there, Bordy. Great little comparison for people who don't get to ride 25 different boards a year.

greg

[Erik J]

Damn, is this the same Bordy that posted (and was deleted) a few days ago?:)

Thank you very much for putting so much thought and info into these posts. Seriously, the first hand knowledge you just gave us is priceless.

[BlueB]

True purpose built custom, PGS and PSL board have been the most fun boards I have ridden, I even built my free ride shapes around the race shapes.

Better edge hold, better tracking, = more control less work, for me that means longer days with more runs and higher then normal speeds, which is really what I like personally.

If you have ridden with me then you know what I am about and why I ride race sticks.

If you have never made turns with me then you may not really understand,( this happens often for me here on BOL) My favortite sticks are still SG boards. Right now the Silly Good is the best thing I ride it is a SG stick based on current race gear since no one but Hardbooter really makes a current SG stick in North America.

I really must say that race boards are made for one single purpose, to edge very well,(through all types of bumps and what not) change dirrections, and absorb. these are all things I want my boards to do better then other boards and thats what I think race boards do.

I also just have to add metal boards can be as damp or as snappy as the builder decides, coliers all lay on the damp side, when you compare a coiler as your metal board base line to what metal rides like they are the dampest.

To say that Glass boards are snappier is just silly and is a BOL myth that is just untrue and mostly spread by people who have not ridden a snappy metal stick.

Virus metal-snappy yet still tracks well, you really need to want it.

Prior- same deal, with a bit more playful flex.

Donek- the metal boards I have ridden are snappy but track well.

Madd- these boards have a lot of hook at the end of the turn so a tight radius with a agressive exit makes the board feel even snappier then it is.

Tomahawks - have snap but poor shape.

Kesslers- enough snap that its not uncommen to see ricers up sidedown from to much realese.

SG- damper then Kesslers but in differnt zones, the tail is still stiff to accelerate from but the tip and mid has lots of sponge.

F2s- have lots of playful snap they just are still catching up on shapes.

Coilers- are the dampess board I have ridden with very littl to almost no snap. But at a coast of being very stable and very easy to ride hard without getting bucked.

Again just my opinion based on being a snowboarder.

I also wanted to add to Istvan, that the powered part or pushing section of the turn is much differnt on a true PGS board then many free ride boards, Most free ride board are made to help control speed by providing a turn shape that has a slow and control entrance with a braking middle section as the rider applies pressure against the G forces and usally a controled finish based on the same braking radius.

Race board are made to be pumped at the enterance to gain speed while still controling direction, then to gain more speed in the middle of the turn with out providing the deep bend, trench and braking forces in the middle(like a free ride stick) then to continue to gain speed trough the finish of the turn while maintaining control and the ability to adjust line before changing edges uphill to push for more speed into the next turn. Also since the race coarse changes through out the day the race stick is also made to help the rider pump and glide once the rut is there to use.

A great racer can make the board work well in both the rut and the qualifing surface.

A free rideboard really allows the rider to control speed but not always line and surface changes, If you as a rider like layed out turns with lots of angle and the same radius each time and want the board to provide a platform while still controling speed then a true PGS shape will just not fit the bill. But having new school materails in a old school shape still helps.

If you like to ride fast and vary your turn shape while being able to absorb terrain and surface changes then a race board should work better under a good riders feet.

This is one of the best post I red, from you. Next one too!

Thank you my friend.