Game Changer

[Bruce Varsava]

I will as always go down in flames to get the same point across every year!

Better you than me:lol::lol::lol:

[Neil Gendzwill]

Are you charging Kessler Kash for your creations these days, Bruce?

Not with you on this one? If you are asking about pricing, about 1/2 price I would think when all is factored in

That's what I meant, Bordy implied that boards like Kesslers were available for immediate delivery at the same prices you charge, and I just don't think that's the case unless you're buying used. And that's not really apples and oranges.

[Bordy]

I've ridden 15m, 16m, 17m, 18.5m. 18.5m or 20m on a 170cm Schtubby would not be as versatile as 13 or 14m. We don't have that kind of real estate out here.

Yes you do, I grew up there remember. I rode 18.5+ meter radius all over NE on much bigger boards then 180???

It's simple physics. A 170 will have lower swing weight than a 180 or 185.

Are you spinning, or skidding???? swing weight is not a issue on the gorund or while carving a turn, effective edge how ever is?

Ouch! Were racers using metal and clothoids and decambered noses in 2000-2003? If so I hadn't heard. In those days at the ECES there were twice as many Doneks on the hill as all other boards put together. What wasn't Donek on par with? F2? Burton? Did you try racing a Donek back then? Doneks were leaps and bounds better than anything available at retail from F2 or Burton.

Um Yea a Kesslers were out and on the podium in 2001 on? I tottally dissagree with Doneks out riding stock f2s of the time, and most burtons had much more tech in the core and construction. Just bore entry level shapes.

And the board we were riding at events from F2 Burton etc, blew the doors off what the Donek athletes were riding, oh and yes I was riding some hand me downs from Thorndike, his race board from the previous season an the WC and the back up practice board from the same year, That was in 04 I tried to make them work for half a season cuz i really wanted to support shawn and jennifer and the US made alpine board. It how ever was not possible. I started riding the Kessler prodect then. The only riders riding Doneks at that level were US team rider receiving team boards, I know how they felt about the prodect and I watch Shawn struggle trying to keep up with a development program that didn't work with him and his athletes unfortunatlly. Although the Donek prodect was working for the best rider in the US they had the ability to make almost any prodect work. It was a shame when wood boards and wood shaped died on the world cup in 05 Donek just didn't stand a chance. They got teched out trying to make the olympic construction work.

That is most definitely NOT the norm.

Funny seems like lots of people own more then one board even had a pole about it once? People sure like to post quiver pics also, Skiis, n soft boot gear all included. All of it worth much more then a Kessler??

It's not a money thing for true passionate riders, but I think a scant minority of hardbooters fit your definition of true passionate rider.

No i just think you have gotten confused by the passionate rider vs. the passionat poster, big differance?

Tangent alert... but are you talking about a full-rocker race board?

He He it's a secret.... Funny how others have told you they work also and shown you pics but you just won't get it...

If you don't understand how you just belittled me, then you will never make more than 6000 bones a year, because you will never hold a job where you have to deal with professionals or customers. If you're fine with that then more power to you.

Jack I really want to tell you to f off here, how does this matter with snowboarding? And why do you think you need to educate me as such? I have had plenty of high paying jobs, Been, in major leadership roles with life or death responsabilitys that probably make your job seem boring and lame, Matter of fact everything I have ever wanted to be good at I have nailed, But luckly its always been a job that I get to go ride and play while doing( hows that working out for you again??) Oh and run many or other peoples investments and made them tons of ducket, oh yea and then theres the alpine snowboard stuff that I have been a part of since inception, Oh yea and I am helping to Pioneer a entirley new sport I even hold a national title in, but I have made life style choices to play how I want.. how is this relevent? Have you had enough and just want to be a jerk now? Is the fact that your just a weekend guy that happens to moderate a web forum starting to set in? Perhaps lots of the info you have given out is not really totally Legit, is it possible that for years you have been giving old outdate advise based on just your own experance with alpine that doesn't really mirrior the true progression but becuase you where given a outlet to shar info on line others got wipapidiaed into thinking it must be correct? And now its become such a internet reality you forget<<

Like I said, I play in the league of people who have to live in reality. You play in the league of professional athletes. In my league, accessible new school racing products is a relatively new thing.

Really Jack I live out side of reality I am pretty sure I am real. Your world is different then mine, my world is snowboarding and other athletic jobs, While yours is different but no more real then mine.

There is nothing new about cool race gear I have been pimping on this very web site since the begging, the very first post I ever kicked in on was a question about "custom race shapes and who needs them" and after riding a kessler for a few mounths I started pimping metal and new shapes in 04 of course it was contered by several of the posters that it was a gimic, or unusable or unessaary, your self include. Its not that you couldn't get gear its that you made a choice not to.

Actually it doesn't. Only your online attitude does.

yes we do.

yeah... how's that working for you?

Your involed questioning what i am putting down again???

If I'm so isolated and inexperienced and outdated, then how was I able to even ride the NSR? I didn't have to re-learn alpine just to make it work, quite the contrary, the board was <i>easier</i> to ride fast than any longboard I've ever been on! How is that possible when I clearly don't know what I'm doing? And hey, I'll bet you the board that my first day on my Kessler will kick ass!! Golly!!

Ok now you are just being cocky even more then giving me carrer advise so lets have at it then, How many days a year did you ride Jack? how many as paid adviser, instructor coach, board tester,? Besides a few articles in tranworld in the ninetys and the current content on BOL( which you already admitted is way out dated and needs changing) what have you done to keep you level of knowledge on par with the current trends in Alpine, I mean from besides you sitting in front of your computer dishing out advise based on what you did for a few winters back in college? How many different prodect have you ridden this year? how about in total? what the difference in feel between the current crop of bindings based on your experance with them this year, What manufactors are making top notch prodect and why based only on your personal experance? what is the differnce in ride between the major boot brands out there based on your ride evaluation? What do you currently think is the most effective Plate system out there again based on your personal experance? How do the new(project) bomber bindings ride compared to the td3s? I have about a hundred more. But I am pretty sure you don't know that stuff either?

Someone else made this point and it is sooo true: the new school race boards are like the new F1 cars and MotoGP motorcycles with their traction control, stability control, anti-lock brakes, semi-automatic transmissions, etc: Easier to ride fast. But the best drivers are the ones who grew up on the old crap. I have that foundation. I'll bet you in 10-15 years we will see a decline in winning times, because the top riders will have never ridden a wood/glass board!

Horrible point i was going to jump on it earlier also... How in the world to you compare traction control, stab control, anti lock etc to snowboards??

This is crazy desk jockey reasoning 101 there are no input converters on a snowboard? Its your legs controling the board. To really think a rider on a wood board is a better rider ,is just wood board riders trying to make excuses to why the don't need a metal prodect. Your wood board fondation gets you no where. You really think since you rode a prodect that doesn't go as fast as easy that you are going any where near as fast or with the pressision that some one who learned on a much better tool can. That as smart as saying since you learned to carve a board with out side cut you will always be able to out carve some one who learned on sidecut???? And then you go so far as to "Bet" times will get slower... Its called progression grand pa step into the now...

No, the easy thing is to just sit back and be yourself, unfiltered, and say well if anyone can't handle "the truth" that's their problem. That's the easy way. That makes enemies, and you end up hurting your own cause. If I just typed everything that popped into my head here, I'd get banned. (believe me!) And then I couldn't do what I do to try to help alpine grow.

Problem is not every thing you post helps the sport grow just like not everything I post does, Why in the world should I make shareing what i know on a web site hard this is not my work place. If the easiest thing for me to do is say site back and tell people to handle the truth then why shouldn't I

the easy thing to do in snowboarding is to ride New school shapes that make it super easy for people to progress, and have fun at a level unheard of 10 years ago thats also what I choose to do.

MMMMMKAYYY

[Jack M]

It's simple physics. A 170 will have lower swing weight than a 180 or 185.

Are you spinning, or skidding???? swing weight is not a issue on the gorund or while carving a turn, effective edge how ever is?

We were talking about versatile snowboards. Versatile = carving and not carving.

That is most definitely NOT the norm.

Funny seems like lots of people own more then one board even had a pole about it once? People sure like to post quiver pics also, Skiis, n soft boot gear all included. All of it worth much more then a Kessler??

Sure, a lot of people have multiple boards, but most people do not have multple boards of the Kessler et al price point. I'll surmise that if they have to choose between 2-3 good boards or one Kessler, they chose the former. Some people like Pokkis and Sutherland do have large collections of top-shelf decks, but those people are certainly exceptional.

Tangent alert... but are you talking about a full-rocker race board?

He He it's a secret.... Funny how others have told you they work also and shown you pics but you just won't get it...

Nope, nobody has told me they work well and I have not been shown any pics. I have read a few reviews that basically said, in guarded terms, that they suck, including one from Tille.

If you don't understand how you just belittled me, then you will never make more than 6000 bones a year, because you will never hold a job where you have to deal with professionals or customers. If you're fine with that then more power to you.

Jack I really want to tell you to f off here, how does this matter with snowboarding?

Ok, so you caught my original knee jerk response to you belittling me and then saying you never belittling me. Sorry, I guess. That was jerky of me. But you mentioned your income, and then proceeded to be a complete jerk to me. I'll correct my statement to say that if you brought the attitude you have here to a professional job, you wouldn't last a month. It's funny how you can dish it out but not take it. You can slam not only me and everyone on this forum, but also people who have done and sacrificed even more for alpine including Sean Martin, Mike Banker, Bruce Varsava and others all day long, but when someone holds up a mirror to you suddenly it's a crime? Get bent.

Like I said, I play in the league of people who have to live in reality. You play in the league of professional athletes. In my league, accessible new school racing products is a relatively new thing.

Really Jack I live out side of reality I am pretty sure I am real. Your world is different then mine, my world is snowboarding and other athletic jobs, While yours is different but no more real then mine.

Do you pay income tax? Do you have children or dependents you have to provide for? Do you answer to a manager? Do you have coworkers depending on you to do your part of a project? Do you have a mortgage? College savings? These are the types of things that shackle most of us to a desk for 40, 50 or more hours a week while it would appear you live in a world we can only visit on vacation. I'm not complaining about that, it's my choice, but I think you should have some respect for that before you come here and tell us we're all posers doing it all wrong. We're loving this sport as best we can.

The irony here is you and I have mostly the same goals, and I agree with you 90% of the time. And I defend you too. Frankly I wish you could take over my position here, but you'd rather "keep it real" I guess. Ok, I'm done.

[tex1230]

These are the types of things that shackle most of us to a desk for 40, 50 or more hours a week

Jack, can you find me one of those 40-50 hour a week jobs? I could use a break here...

[David Glynn]

But I would like everyone to have the chance to ride a board that would let them be the best alpine rider they can be with the most rewards for the least amount of work.

Bordy, This quote cuts to the chase it is at the core of this discussion. It is right on. As athletes we should all remember that we need to stack the deck in our favor. Get the best gear we can afford, be in the best shape we can manage and ride as often as possible. Do it all for the love and respect of the sport not to mention yourself.

[Bordy]

we where talking snowboard but your so quick to place blame, You must be having a rough time. Could you answer the questions about your current involment on snow woth alpine.

I really don't care that you think about what I could do in the "real world" I answer yes to all the things on your list of worries, thats what they sound like Jack you being very worried and upset about other things. You really are way of the loop here and if you where up to date on currrent action I would be a lot nicer on our chats on line. It always feels like you find a way to argue. And your points are weak, they do represent the veiws of some one with your back ground.

Oh yea pokkis or some one, posted pitch on the rockered board he gave huge reveiws about.

And Tille never riden a rocker board he has ridden a decambered tip and tail.

Any how .

Thanks for what you have done so far for the sport. i

There are lots of riders that do what you do on the weekends its super cool that you take the time to represent that.

I shared my veiw and am done typing things back and forth with you.

You get my point. I was stoked you got to ride a current shape race board then you argueed that you have never been out of the "big board loop" But then you said there wasn't enough real estate to ride big boards were you live, then you talked about riding boards that are big board like then I said no there not.

You then ranted about me comeing down on board builders and such cuz I said their prodects could have been or be better? Then you told me I could not make it in your real world? I questioned how your current snow board credentails where you, side stepped and still, worried about my finances. I giggled about your internet persona being way more out landinsh then you invision. I wrote back to you and now I am done until you remind me that how besides what you do online you are cheaping current with your remarks and comments. Many of the poster here have the same level of involment currently that you do.

I under stand that you have other things to do and such, But since I don't I just keep my daily snowboard job untill the snow melts then i will go on teaching kitboarding, staying current and involed, you know in "real life".

I Pokka my head out....and back in

b2

[Erik J]

wow.....the only word that comes to my mind is trainwreck

[Jack M]

Bordy... the bottom line here is that you are right. You are. Everyone in this forum who is not some kind of regular advanced level racer is a clueless poser by comparison, myself included. We are doing the best we can. I wish you could just make peace with that fact and educate us without being condescending and belittling about it.

I look forward to our next turns and beers together.

(yeah, I said I was done, but this is how we roll here, right?)

[GeoffV]

Bordy how about you show up at the ECES next season with some of your big boards and new race boards so we can get a taste of some F1 snowboarding technology. I've never been on a Kessler and would love to give it a try some time.

You're do for an ECES event anyways, you haven't been out here in a while and the Rack would love to kick you out of their bar again for misconduct:boxing_sm

[NateW]

So, now that that's over with.... can someone fill me in on what we're talking about?

Pretty much every board has a slightly decambered nose, in that the nose turns up an inch or so before the widest part of the board, and the widest part sits a couple millimeters off the snow. I've noticed this in every board I've looked closely at.*

With the NSR and similar (Kessler? Virus?) boards, have the builder's just taken that idea further? Or is it something totally different? Put another way, if you set the board on the floor, where does the effective edge end? And how far off the floor is the widest parts of the nose and tail?

I'd really like to understand what makes the new boards tick before I buy one, and knowing how they're shaped is kind of a pre-requisite for that. :)

Thanks!

[BlueB]

Sure, I'll try...

Nose rise hase become more gradual to accomodate the larger distance between contact point and the widest point of the sidecut. This provides for very smooth entry and exit of the carve and easier ride over irregular surfaces.

Without really measuring, metal Priors 07/08/09 generation have about 2-3", (there seems to be more on 2010 model), about the same on Tinkler, Virus Vampire has 4-5", while on Kessler KST the rise starts almost half way between front binding and the nose.

I didn't really pay the attention on how high of the snow the wides part was, though.

Vampire and Kessler ride noticably smoother. However the multi-radial scr somtimes messes with my mind, as well as the huge taper on Kessler. But that's another topic...

[BlueB]

Even on the older boards, I've noticed that the ones with smoother nose raise rode way better in irregular snow then the ones with more abrupt curve, irrespective of where the widest point was placed. Example is my old Generics IQ with it's low rise smooth nose (but decent size) that rode easier then same generation boards with more hi-tech construction that sported ubrupt nose rise...

[BlueB]

Ah I see Jack did better explanation. It's here:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25520

[Helmut Karvlow]

Bordy... the bottom line here is that you are right. You are. Everyone in this forum who is not some kind of regular advanced level racer is a clueless poser by comparison, myself included. We are doing the best we can. I wish you could just make peace with that fact and educate us without being condescending and belittling about it.

I look forward to our next turns and beers together.

(yeah, I said I was done, but this is how we roll here, right?)

Jack, I know you spent time with Billy as I have and I don't see him being condescending in his post's. That's just how Bordy is, remember the ECES when he came to help me on the hill turned backwards right in front of me telling me what I was doing wrong all at about 30 mph!! I stopped and told him I couldn't ride with him doing that, so he shot into the park and hit all the jumps.

then we got thrown out of wescotts bar. good times:p

[ARCrider]

I'm on my new stick.

NSR182

does everything the 185 can but in a smaller package.

I might have to get a second one for backup. Wouldn't want to not have a new school board to ride.