queequeg Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 I have been teaching a friend of mine to snowboard, with the ultimate goal of teaching her to carve, (she is already on hardboots and a very soft alpine board). She has been making some good progress but I think she is beginning to hit a wall in some respects, and that she has some hurdles to make in terms of being willing to go a little faster and getting comfortable with the speed necessary to get the board a little higher up on edge. So far, we have not concentrated on carving technique too much, although I have made sure to get her aligning her body in a more alpine stance, (knees driving forward, hips facing forward etc ... ). She has made terrific progress so far, but a lot of her riding is dominated (limited) somewhat by (what seems like) her inability overcome some apprehensions - she is very hard to get out of the back seat, and seems afraid of letting the board run downhill long enough to gather enough speed to turn gracefully (I'm not talking about much speed here, but she tends to go very slowly and bleed off nearly all her speed in her turns) - so it has been very hard to teach her to push the board dynamically, and get it up on edge. Again, we're not talking about carving here - I just want to get her to get to the point where she can carry enough speed to make some more gentle prolonged drift-turns as opposed to what she does now: short drifted turns that go all the way across the fall line and back again. At this point she has enough control with the short drifted turns that she could benefit from adding a bit of speed to the mix, to make balancing in her turns and transitions a bit easier. Right now, most of the time when I see her falling it is because she is going so slow, that there just isn't enough inertial force in her momentum to balance out the inclination in her turns - she is having to rely on very fine balance/motor skills to keep upright. But she seems very afraid to point it downhill and catch a bit of speed. Whenever she does, she shines, but it is very hard to get her to point it. She is very, very motivated to learn and has a good attitude, I just want to make sure I am helping her out as best I can. Any drills/advice that can help her add a bit of confidence and speed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 At about same situation with my wife still married 30 yrs. You are treading dangerous waters here my boy. Either she will love you for your help or ??Better get engaged then continue with lessons. Does she use protection ? Nothing personal but this past weekend saw my wife coveting my wrist guards they are hers now .tailbone protection next. That extra protection really helped with the confidence to push a little harder.A little more confidence a little more speed better linked turns:biggthump, your a hero. Good Luck to you both! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Can she do a hard stop on either heel or toe edge? Forgoing turns entirely for a bit might help - just let it run downhill for a bit, then slam on the brakes. Try again with a bit more speed, until she gets confidence that she has emergency control over her speed. Once she knows she can bail, then maybe she will dial it up a little for turns. Interested to hear what the real instructors have to say about this problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted March 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 At about same situation with my wife still married 30 yrs. You are treading dangerous waters here my boy. Either she will love you for your help or ??Better get engaged then continue with lessons. Does she use protection ? Nothing personal but this past weekend saw my wife coveting my wrist guards they are hers now .tailbone protection next. That extra protection really helped with the confidence to push a little harder.A little more confidence a little more speed better linked turns:biggthump, your a hero. Good Luck to you both! Heh - I've heard a lot of people say that you shouldn't be teaching a S.O. to snowboard, but since we're not dating that shouldn't be a problem. :-p She's got wrist pads and knee pads - she bruises pretty easily. I think a butt pad might be a good idea too. Can she do a hard stop on either heel or toe edge? Forgoing turns entirely for a bit might help - just let it run downhill for a bit, then slam on the brakes. Try again with a bit more speed, until she gets confidence that she has emergency control over her speed. Once she knows she can bail, then maybe she will dial it up a little for turns. Interested to hear what the real instructors have to say about this problem. I was thinking something like that might help. She also gets nervous on narrow trails, probably for a lot of the same reason - not confident that she can turn when she wants to. I've seen her do well on the few occasions where she has managed to build up a bit of speed, but it is difficult to get her to point it at all. Overall I think her actions are governed a bit too much by negative thoughts (scared of going too fast or losing control) than by positive influences, (I want to turn here, I want to turn there). I'm trying to get her focusing on the positive ("lets go here, lets go there") over the negative ("oh god I better not go off the trail"). As I know that can really influence your ability to perform well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 The only thing that worked for my wife was riding. The more she rode, the more comfortable she got, the faster she went. After a hard or scary fall, it was back to square one..... Maybe not one, but we took quite a step back. I think the Gals are going to have to chime in on this one and tell us what works for them. We all know how good guys are at figuring out women.... :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted March 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 The really frustrating thing for me is I am not an instructor, so I am probably not the best teacher. I would love it if we could find a proper alpine instructor for her, but the last thing we want is for her to take a softboot lesson where they teach skidded turns counter-rotation and the like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoom Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Hi there! Good on ya for helping a girl out. While I'm not as good or strong a rider as many BOLers, I happen to be a chick and may be able to offer some insight.... Most (not all) women are less aggressive riders than most (not all) men. It sounds like your friend may fit nicely into this pattern. I know I do. More aggressive riders, by and large, are able to overcome flaws in their technique by simply going faster, taking more chances and learning by trial and the occasionally scary or painful error. Less aggressive riders like yours truly and a few other women and men I've watched are *not* comfortable learning this way. We learn by building a skill slowly, in pieces, and then, as we feel the skill start to work, very gradually increasing our speed/edge angle/whatever. Very different processes, but similar goals. It is possible that your friend is more intuitive than I am, but for me, the worst possible advice is along the lines of "trust the edge," "just put the board higher on edge," "go faster," that sort of thing. It is non-specific and makes me feel inadequate that I can't "just do it." Clear, technical advice, accompanied by static demonstrations or breaking toeside and heelside down turn by turn or just slow, balanced, carved traverses were much more helpful in moving me along. I happen to have a great instructor to help me (hard to find, but so worth it), so I don't have to rely on my more intuitive, aggressive (well-meaning) boyfriend. One great thing about my instructor is that he teaches "good" or "pretty" skidded turns with carved turns. Since I have a bit of a fear factor, I am able to increase my speed and aggression only if I'm confident that at any point I can slow down or stop. In my opinion, skidding is as or more important than carving for learning (flame away). I've probably gone on too long already, but one more thought.... I'm sure there are exceptions, but the less aggressive riders I know (men and women) are/were MUCH more comfortable starting out on softies. When I started out, I felt like the hardboots locked me in concrete and took me for a ride, where I felt like I had more power to influence a softboot setup. I simply felt more comfortable and confident on softies, which is why I made my first carved turns on softboots, many days before my first carved turns on hardboots. Now, while I love my hardboots and can feel some limitations of softboots, I am still more aggressive and confident on softies. Just what worked for me.... Everyone is different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvedog Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 If you are having her turn her hips forward ( at least at this level ) that is contributing to the back seat problem. Hips should be right over feet. Any other place will introduce turning into the mix which as to be countered somehow. If she is tentative, slower and using the whole run to finish a turn, also sounds like there is not much flexion, extension movement going on or the turn would happen much faster. No flex/ext means she has to rely on rotation. Easiest rotation being to open the front shoulder and get in the back seat. Does this sound familiar? Front ankle flexion is a huge part of what I have been working on the last couple of years. That could be by getting the front knee to move across the board ( to initiate toeside - which if she is in the back seat will be really hard ), this movement almost has to have some ankle flexion or you can't do it. So little things to get her aware of aligned stance ( hips over feet ), and using the front ankle will help her get some control. To go with ankle flexion, if she is not standing up really nice and tall in between turns it becomes much harder - does she stay slightly hunkered? Just some thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted March 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 If you are having her turn her hips forward ( at least at this level ) that is contributing to the back seat problem.Hips should be right over feet. Any other place will introduce turning into the mix which as to be countered somehow. If she is tentative, slower and using the whole run to finish a turn, also sounds like there is not much flexion, extension movement going on or the turn would happen much faster. No flex/ext means she has to rely on rotation. Easiest rotation being to open the front shoulder and get in the back seat. Does this sound familiar? Front ankle flexion is a huge part of what I have been working on the last couple of years. That could be by getting the front knee to move across the board ( to initiate toeside - which if she is in the back seat will be really hard ), this movement almost has to have some ankle flexion or you can't do it. So little things to get her aware of aligned stance ( hips over feet ), and using the front ankle will help her get some control. To go with ankle flexion, if she is not standing up really nice and tall in between turns it becomes much harder - does she stay slightly hunkered? Just some thoughts. This sounds a lot like her. Yes: difficult to get her to do much flexion extension - but honestly, she is going so slowly I can't really see her being able to do much extension flexion without falling over ... or just sort of bouncing up and down. She does it when she gets moving though, and when she does she is better on the toeside than the heel (where she tends to rotate, as you correctly predicted). She does stand up in her turns (though every so slightly bent at the waist). but she doesn't flex much in between them during her transitions. Ok - so it sounds like maybe I should have her ride a more traditional stance until she is a bit more advanced - it sounds like you are saying that this should help stabilize her at her current stage of learning, yes? Thanks!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 rinse....repeat.... find a trail and a line that she can do over and over....more than anything else if she can hit the same line and find what works and what doesn't she can get faster. This actualy works better on a smaller trail than it does on a big one because it's easier to remember your line. This is the same kind of technique that I use for Slalom skateboarding and for that matter freeride downhill skateboarding (because I will never race DH Skateboards)...yes it can get monotonous but the payoff is worth it IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Hi Jose, I figured I'd chime in w/another girl's perspective. I can totally relate to your friend's experience, as I've been there. I've been riding now for 15+ years (all of them w/my husband...and we are still together;). While providing feedback to her is very important, you also need to just let her ride, and feel everything for herself. Give her a chance to absorb any info you've previously provided and finding a comfort level for herself. But, let her ride, and feel it. Offer to take out the video camera. With video you can show her what she "is" doing, and then explain what she "should" be doing. This is a very good tool for anyone that learns better with a visual. Going faster=FEAR for some (not everyone is an adrenaline junky!). Each person is different for how they will handle this equation. The more comfortable she gets w/just riding, the easier it will be for her to start riding faster. Hope this makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allee Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Going faster=FEAR for some (not everyone is an adrenaline junky!). Each person is different for how they will handle this equation. The more comfortable she gets w/just riding, the easier it will be for her to start riding faster. Hope this makes sense. Right on. The best thing you can do for her is tell her the basics, get off her case, and let her do her thing. Everyone learns differently - for me, I can't deal with theory at all, I have to be on the board and feeling it under my feet. The more she rides, the faster she'll go. But while she's learning, find nice, easy, wide runs for her to play on and let her build her confidence. We're not naturally as aggressive or as brave as boys, so confidence in what you're doing is key. People just learn at different rates. Because she can't scream around the hill after three days doesn't mean she won't get there eventually. I was the world's worst learner (in fact, I was absolutely shocking), but when it clicked it was all good - it just took a while. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted March 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Wow - Thanks for all the helpful info - Particularly from the ladies - Steph, Alee & Zoom. I'd also like to say that she is making terrific progress despite not having a very good instructor :-D Gecko - yeah - I've found that she picks things up pretty well if I just show her something over the course of a run and then go away so that she can practice on her own. I know I can only handle instruction in very small tidbits, otherwise I get freaked out and overwhelmed - that is definitely a quality I appreciate. I did get a little video of her at one point and it was a big motivator for her - she REALLY wants to get good! Zoom - I've just been working on her drifted turns (not sure that is the correct term, but I would consider it a more directional, less sloppy skidded turn). And she's really getting the hang of that. Definitely not near ready to carve, or anything like that ... right now it feels like the next step is just for her to finish her turns a little earlier and bleed a little less speed going across the fall line, but I am certain that it will come in time and with practice. I definitely believe in letting people learn at the pace they are more comfortable at ... after all, it's supposed to be fun not terrifying. Sometimes she does really well and is very happy, but when she has a rough day, she gets very frustrated. Like the CarveFather says ... she sometimes wants to be a Just-Add-Water snowboarder :-). Who doesn't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjl Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 I got comfortable with speed and steepness roughly the same way: Find a run with a flat (or uphill) runout that she is comfortable with but would not feel comfortable straightlining. Ride it, find a spot on the run where she is comfortable straightlining with the knowledge that the flat runout will slow her down. Maybe it is only 15 or 20 feet from the end of the downhill. Repeat, moving the spot where she straightlines up each time. The flat runout is the key; with it, you can accidentally get going too fast to try to slow down, but be OK with the knowledge that if you can hold it together till the flats, everything will be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarvingScooby Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Give her a chance to absorb any info you've previously provided and finding a comfort level for herself. But, let her ride, and feel it. Offer to take out the video camera. With video you can show her what she "is" doing, and then explain what she "should" be doing. This is a very good tool for anyone that learns better with a visual.Going faster=FEAR for some (not everyone is an adrenaline junky!). Each person is different for how they will handle this equation. The more comfortable she gets w/just riding, the easier it will be for her to start riding faster.. Agree, with Steph:biggthump....or take her back to the "easiest run" or Bunny Hill where she started to learn and let her be the expert on that slope before move to next level, so her brain can concentrate/focus on how to.. and her confidence raised at the same time. Short run mean less tired and relax longer on the chair (chair slooooowww:freak3: to us but not for the beginner) and most of the time they have quiet wide slope too... Hey, I always going back to Bunny Hill specially @ nite where almost no one on that run to practice...:rolleyes: She's got wrist pads and knee pads - she bruises pretty easily. I think a butt pad might be a good idea too ITS VERY GOOD IDEA -> Even ask her to get double "Butt Pad"=> a soft layer as 1st layer and Hard foam (Croc skin) as a 2nd layer, these pads will help a lot to practice lot longer. When your butt is soar to the bone from hitting the ice so often your brain can't concentrate and will tell you to give up sooner. Wrist pad with a "slash guard" will help alot/prevent Hand twist up injury. Get from the Hockey Gear/Roller blade, away cheaper then special made for snowboard/ski. My 2 cents (my own experience) Good luck bud... Cheers Roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoom Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 The best thing you can do for her is tell her the basics, get off her case, and let her do her thing. Great advice in this thread! Allee's point about letting your friend rack up some miles is especially good. It's easy to get information overload when you're learning. For me, 1-3 exercises or things to focus on are about all I can handle in a day, and then I have to get out and "feel" it over and over again. Aside from that, sometimes it's fun to just ride with your friends, even the ones who could offer loads of advice, without worrying about what they think. Actually, just seeing that Steph has been riding for 15 years is terrific for me. It lets me pretend that I might look like her avatar in 12 years. Sounds like you're on a good track. More girl carvers = awesome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newcarver Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 I have been riding with my wife for 10 yrs. Our home mountain has a lot of cat walks and some areas that actually go uphill. You have to go fast or your skating a long ways. When we first started riding her she would be afraid to go fast, especially on the narrow cat walks. After she skated several times she started going faster and faster. She never has to skate now. Might work if you have similar areas where you have to go fast or get stuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted March 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 I'm sure there are exceptions, but the less aggressive riders I know (men and women) are/were MUCH more comfortable starting out on softies. When I started out, I felt like the hardboots locked me in concrete and took me for a ride, where I felt like I had more power to influence a softboot setup. I simply felt more comfortable and confident on softies, which is why I made my first carved turns on softboots, many days before my first carved turns on hardboots. Now, while I love my hardboots and can feel some limitations of softboots, I am still more aggressive and confident on softies. Hadn't noticed this part of your post - one of the cool and interesting things about My friend lisa, is that she really did not like softboots. She probably had (7?) days on softboots before she switched to her hardboots one day because the softies were uncomfortable - I thought it was too early but she was really disliking her softies. Funny thing is she immediately loved riding the hardboots. She was like "wow - so much more control and comfort" - She much prefers the hardboots over the softies - something I thought was really interesting, because she really was very much a beginner when she made the switch. I don't think she's put a single run in on softies since she went hard. (I'm so proud!) Hey you're from Eugene? I went to college there (UO), and used to ride at Willamette Pass all the time. Good times! Have you ever heard of Steve Black or Gabe Cabatic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 See my thread here. :) Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 This season is a write off for me with my ankle I did 4 hours on the local hill and a day with xxguitarist at sunapee....the 4 hours were a body killer and my legs aren't even close to recovered enough for the cost of a lift ticket to be worth spending again so I've skated a lot this season, mostly park, some cones and last saturday some DH freeriding. The guys I skated with really noticed how much I've lost but also how much repeating the same run again and again gave back to me over the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted March 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 This season is a write off for me with my ankle I did 4 hours on the local hill and a day with xxguitarist at sunapee....the 4 hours were a body killer and my legs aren't even close to recovered enough for the cost of a lift ticket to be worth spending again so I've skated a lot this season, mostly park, some cones and last saturday some DH freeriding. The guys I skated with really noticed how much I've lost but also how much repeating the same run again and again gave back to me over the day. That's a real bummer about your Ankle Gecko. I really want to make it out to sunapee for these carving get togethers that I've heard so much about there. I love that place (I used to ride there all the time in High School). I saw a guy with a sunapee hat at Hunter last week and I nearly bowled him over with enthusiasm about the place .... Anywho ... I'm a big fan of lapping, myself. Perhaps too much - I tend to stick to my "comfort zone" runs a bit too much I think. But I agree that there is no better way to perfect your technique and work things out by taking everything but your technique out of the picture ... just lapping the same run over and over again, the same way, without stopping. That really does it for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanZ Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 whenever I need to learn something dangerous, like when I would try extremely dangerous tricks on a skateboard, I would pad myself to death...protection = confidence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Brian I'm always padded up....at age 42 regardless of my ankle to do anything less would be stupid.... That said perfecting my line has been my goal for my recovery and finding my old lines in places I knew from before my accident has helped....new places has been harder, I resort to carving more and searching for the right line Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
two_ravens Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Lots of good advice here. I'm in my second season and just this weekend starting to put together a few nice carved turns..... Was going to write a whole bunch of things, but just reread your first post - and I think I'll just keep it to this: one drill that really seemed to help me was hopping. Someone posted that up here last year (might have been williamblake before he got himself banned) and I tried it out. Start on the flat not moving, or on a jacket on the flat, or even on the living room rug, and just do one hop. Then maybe two. Then a few more! :) Then have her try hopping a few times while barely moving, and slowly work on up. (A soft landing and proper padding helps, in case she does tip over at first.) After a few days of doing this hopping drill, I found that everything else seemed a bit easier and other skills started to come together. I hop a few times now at the start of almost every run as I'm pulling away from the chairlift - it really seems to help with balance and getting my weight where it needs to be on the board. I'm the kind of person who needs to feel things, and this just seems like a positive way to help me feel like I'm on the board and really connected to it. Hopping has also become a useful recovery technique - sometimes as I am catching an edge I can hop my board to where it needs to be so I don't have to wipe out. Good luck to you and your friend - always good to hear about more girls taking up hardbooting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kex Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 It was already mentioned, but I definitely think the best way to make someone more comfortable with speed is to make them comfortable in their ability to stop. I've been snowboarding for 15 or so years now and have no problem with speed, but two years ago, my parents thought it would be fun to get me back on skis(which I havent been on since before I started snowboarding, meaning at the time, 13 years. That means the last time I skied was when i was 5 or 6, hah!) I actually picked it back up very quickly, and was past the bunny slopes after one run and past the greens after another run. But once I got to the blues when you start to accelerate rather fast, i would lose my nerve. It was because I was not confident in my ability to control myself and stop. I would say that is the number one thing to work on with her. Also as was mentioned, a little padding wont hurt as well, girls are delicate!(sorry if this offends anyone) Good luck in teaching her, I've traveled the path of teaching women to snowboard a few times, you're a brave man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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