economy viewpoint - POLITICAL

[trailertrash]

We moved my grandmother back to the states after the canadian healcare system nearly killed her.

She went to the hospital three seperate times complaining of horrible stomach pain. she was given painkillers and sent home with the admonition to get on the six week waiting list for a CT scan.

We brought her across the boarder where she was scanned and rushed into emergency surgery with a burst appendix. She's fine now thank you.

This is basically the same argument Jack tried and failed with. See below. You don't have enough grandmothers nor Jack wives (I hope) to have a statistical relevance.

There is no incentive in a socialist healthcare system to become a healthcare professional. why go to school for 10 years to make the same wage as a truck driver with a tenth grade education. I understand Canada is already experiencing a shortage of nurses etc.

Do Dr's in Canada make what a truck driver makes? Link?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well, that's very unfortunate. Did she get misdiagnosed by 3 different docs, or was it the same incompetent boob each time?

Haven't had the same experience myself. A couple of months after our first kid was born, took my wife to emerg with terrible abdominal pain. She was triaged and admitted immediately ahead of numerous other emerg patients in the waiting room, they don't screw around with abdominal pain here. Turned out to be a kidney stone.

Doctors and nurses here are not compensated as they are in the states but I don't think you can compare their wages to truck drivers. The local nurses recently renegotiated, I think by the time their contract is up in 3 years they will be making on average over 80K/year, not including overtime. Doctors make much more than that, but still not what they're worth IMO.

I have read stories of various Canadian docs coming back due to frustration with dealing with HMOs and a considerably reduced paycheck from insurance costs.

[trailertrash]

There are a bunch of Canuks on this board, maybe they will chime in. I don't want to come off on one side or the other but the arguments should stack up, and they aren't.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Do Dr's in Canada make what a truck driver makes? Link?

Here's one I found quickly: link. According to it, the average ER doc in Toronto was making $170/hour in 2006. Find me a trucker who's making that much.

[Dr D]

This is basically the same argument Jack tried and failed with. See below. You don't have enough grandmothers nor Jack wives (I hope) to have a statistical relevance.

Do Dr's in Canada make what a truck driver makes? Link?

Much like a visit to a bad one here might keep you from going back. I doubt statistics etc will convince me or jack that socialist healthcare is a good idea.

obviously the truck driver comment is tongue in cheek.

The pay is not commeserate with the schooling and the skills in the canadian healthcare system and the incompetent boob makes about the same as the highly skilled and talented one. again no incentive for performance.

[Jack M]

This is basically the same argument Jack tried and failed with.

The only point I was trying to make with my story was that I've experienced socialized healthcare firsthand. That's all. Of course there are good/bad doctors everywhere and no system is perfect, or even good.

[Dr D]

The only point I was trying to make with my story was that I've experienced socialized healthcare firsthand. .

ditto

firsthand hits a little harder than an article on the internet.

[trailertrash]

again no incentive for performance.

Are you really familiar enough with any pay structure at any Canadian hospital to make that statement?

[trailertrash]

The only point I was trying to make with my story was that I've experienced socialized healthcare firsthand. That's all. Of course there are good/bad doctors everywhere and no system is perfect, or even good.

No, you were implying that it is lesser care.

[Jack M]

ditto

firsthand hits a little harder than an article on the internet.

Your experience was basically identical to the ones in the videos I posted. Shocking.

[Dr D]

canada

http://www.payscale.com/research/ca/People_with_Jobs_as_Physicians_%2f_Doctors/Salary

USA

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/People_with_Doctor_of_Medicine_(MD)_Degrees/Salary

Nurse USA

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Registered_Nurse_(RN)/Hourly_Rate

nurse Canada

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Registered_Nurse_(RN)/Hourly_Rate

looks like the nursing shortage has been dealt with. I remember the nursing thing from about 2000 so maybe the improved salary was the answer to that problem.

The amounts are in canadian on the canadian pagesl. Clearly the Doctors are underpaid.

[trailertrash]

canada

http://www.payscale.com/research/ca/People_with_Jobs_as_Physicians_%2f_Doctors/Salary

USA

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/People_with_Doctor_of_Medicine_(MD)_Degrees/Salary

Nurse USA

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Registered_Nurse_(RN)/Hourly_Rate

nurse Canada

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Registered_Nurse_(RN)/Hourly_Rate

looks like the nursing shortage has been dealt with. I remember the nursing thing from about 2000 so maybe the improved salary was the answer to that problem.

The amounts are in canadian on the canadian pagesl. Clearly the Doctors are underpaid.

That says nothing about incentive which was the point you made.

[Jack M]

Sorry for the tangent, but it's related to the bigger argument going on here...

A link to this was sent to me by a fellow BOL'er...

(excerpted)

Line A represents the "standard of living" or "quality of life" of the typical individual in western civilization. This can be measured however you wish to measure it—life span, infant mortality rate, medical care, amount of food, speed of transportation, whatever.

Line A is the line we've all been taught. We leave school thinking civilization advanced slowly but steadily from the stone age, over thousands of years, until we reached our present high level today.

Virtually all political and economic decisions around the world are made on the assumption Line A is correct, and most investment decisions are made on the assumption Line A is correct.

But it's not. Line B is the real line. Nearly all progress happened recently and suddenly. The typical individual in 1500 AD lived little better than in 1500 BC. Things didn't get significantly better until the great takeoff just a short time ago.

I'll give you three examples to make Line B and the great takeoff real for you.

First example. For all of history until just a short time ago, millions of people were killed by their beds. You see, one of the most serious problems humans have always had until the great takeoff is, how do you make a bed that's comfortable but isn't a place to breed disease-carrying mice, rats, fleas, ticks, lice, and bedbugs? People tried everything—straw, cotton, wool—but nothing worked. Beds were filled with disease, and every night when you went to bed you knew you might be committing suicide, because you didn't know what was living in that bed. Until the great takeoff. Someone invented the inner spring mattress, which contains nothing but steel and air. Mice and fleas and so forth cannot live inside an inner spring mattress. A lot of us would be dead were it not for the inner spring mattress, but we are so far removed from the way our ancestors lived that we never think about it.

Second example. Until the great takeoff, millions of people died from tooth decay. You see, cavities kill if they are not treated. During the Middle Ages, a demographer named John Graunt found that 5% of the deaths in London were due to tooth decay. My wife's grandmother died of tooth decay. But to us today, tooth decay is a minor nuisance. We rarely think about it unless we see a TV commercial about toothpaste.

Third example. For thousands of years, a woman had to give birth to nine children, just so that two would live until maturity. Children were killed by smallpox, freezing, typhoid, cholera, starvation, influenza, you name it. Today we all expect to attend the funerals of our parents, but not the funerals of our children. Until the great takeoff, the typical mother and father had to go to their children's funerals seven times. Try to imagine what that was like.

Look back at Line B. For all of human history until recently, everyone lived at or just barely above the base line of human existence.

What happened to cause this sudden, dramatic takeoff? What year did the sharp escalation begin?

You'll notice I've put a question mark at the take off point. Take your pencil, scratch out the question mark and write in 1776.

Almost everything we have was developed after 1776. The growth in our standard of living has been explosive. We have electric lights, television, radio, cars, planes, steamships, telephones, computers, antibiotics, tennis shoes, typewriters, microwave ovens, air conditioning, central heating, heart transplants, digital watches, calculators, railroads, flush toilets, electric drills, showers, fax machines, ballpoint pens, plywood, tin cans, toothpaste, plasterboard, stereo music, refrigerators, and on and on.

All of it developed after 1776.

The typical middle class American today lives vastly better than an Egyptian Pharaoh, better than a Roman emperor, better than a medieval king.

Why Did the American Revolution Have this Effect?

The answer is the explanation of Chaostan, and it begins, as almost everything in today's political world begins, in ancient Rome.

After Roman civilization in Europe fell apart around 500 AD, the Roman legal system died along with the Empire, so Europe had no law. Two people who had a dispute had to work it out on their own. Their feudal lord seldom paid much attention; he didn't care as long as the taxes kept rolling in.

So, when a dispute occurred, often there was bloodshed.

In the effort to avoid this bloodshed, participants in disputes would increasingly call on neutral third parties to hear both sides of their stories and make decisions.

Usually the most trusted person in a community was a clergyman, and some clergymen made careers of hearing disputes and making judgments. They became judges.

Being clergymen, these judges' decisions in each case were based on religious principles such as "Thou shalt not steal," and "Thou shalt not kill."

Decisions were preserved in writing as precedents for later decisions. This collection of precedents became a body of "case law," meaning law derived from actual cases.

But there was one problem. Often people were from different religions. Which principles should a judge apply?

Judges hit on the idea of using the principles all religions hold in common. There are two:

(see Figure).

(1) Do all you have agreed to do. This became the basis of contract law.

(2) Do not encroach on other persons or their property. This became the basis of tort law and some criminal law.

These two laws taught by all religions were held to be common to all persons and they became the foundation of the body of precedents called Common Law.

But there was another problem. Governments hated the two fundamental laws. They wanted the privilege of breaking agreements, stealing, killing and doing whatever else they pleased.

This is the meaning of the so-called "divine right of kings." Governments declared that God had given them the special right to violate the two fundamental laws.

Thanks to the divine right of kings, the heavy taxes, regulations and wars kept the people in crushing poverty.

In England, a huge underground economy sprang up to escape the taxes and regulations.

Finally, after 1492, people began to cross the ocean to America to escape their governments, and England's underground economy was transplanted to America where it flourished. Virtually every adult in colonial America was engaged in smuggling or tax evasion of one sort or another.

By 1765, with very little taxation or regulation, Americans had become the wealthiest people on earth.

Government officials in England decided to steal some of this wealth, and they sent tax collectors.

The tax collectors were tarred and feathered.

So they sent troops to protect the tax collectors, and the American Revolution began.

After the revolution, Americans set up a new government with a Constitution and Bill of Rights based on the two fundamental laws.

The size and power of this new government were severely limited, and its ability to steal, or tax, was reduced almost to zero. Until the 20th century, the US government was so small, it was supported only by import taxes and taxes on liquor and tobacco. There was no income tax.

America became a haven for flight capital as people all over the world began investing their money here. The Americans themselves were able to keep nearly all their income, and save and invest in their own businesses.

Jobs were plentiful, and inventors such as Thomas Edison and Eli Whitney were able to acquire funds to develop a vast array of new machines to make life better. This is where we get the term "American ingenuity."

Question: Why was the Battle of Lexington called the Shot Heard Round The World, not the Shot Heard Round America?

The rest of the world saw America's great wealth and liberty, and they wanted it, too.

The principles of the American Revolution began to spread, and the nations where they were established, came to be known as the "Free World."

These nations are also the richest, because an economic system is the result of its legal system.

excerpted from http://www.richardmaybury.com/chaostanA.html, By Richard Maybury

[trailertrash]

that is too many words, i am out.

[shawndoggy]

Sorry for the tangent, but it's related to the bigger argument going on here...

A link to this was sent to me by a fellow BOL'er...

(excerpted)

The rest of the world saw America's great wealth and liberty, and they wanted it, too.

The principles of the American Revolution began to spread, and the nations where they were established, came to be known as the "Free World."

These nations are also the richest, because an economic system is the result of its legal system.

excerpted from http://www.richardmaybury.com/chaostanA.html, By Richard Maybury

Whew, for a second there I thought you were going to hate on lawyers too!

[Jack M]

that is too many words, i am out.

Here are the cliff notes:

The graph is quality of life vs time. We are taught Line A, when in fact Line B is the real line. Replace the question mark with the year 1776. Humanity began a rapid ascent when the first quasi-Libertarian government (ours) was established.

Now don't get all chicky on me and think I'm suggesting anything like world domination or American superiority. It's just interesting reading, and a fair warning about too-powerful governments.

[Dr D]

looks like a slam dunk to me:biggthump

nice form jack:eplus2:

[Dr D]

Whew, for a second there I thought you were going to hate on lawyers too!

Oh we can go there next if you like:eplus2: Thread drift is already in progress:lol:

I am with shakespeare on that particular subject. "First we kill all the lawyers"

unless we differentiate between bar card holders and non bar card holders;)

[trailertrash]

The graph is quality of life vs time. We are taught Line A, when in fact Line B is the real line.

If you thought "A" was right your parents should get their money back on that private school.

It is a nice article but very lacking in any detailed information.

[bobdea]

Jack, if you're posting that as a argument a capitalist society it's incredibly flawed.

I could make the same argument for pure fascism, slave societies and communist societies very easily.

To stir the pot I will use russia, it experienced modernization in about 30 years with the rise of communism.

There's no valid argument against it, the standard of living in russia was raised dramatically from the time the czar was ousted to wwII

[bobdea]

If you thought "A" was right your parents should get their money back on that private school.

It is a nice article but very lacking in any detailed information.

I have to agree, the glories of the industrial revolution are standard 5th grade science fair stuff.

I went to a public school

[trailertrash]

I have to agree

We should all pause and take note of this special moment.

[Jack M]

well yeah, I was taught B.

To stir the pot I will use russia, it experienced modernization in about 30 years with the rise of communism.

There's no valid argument against it, the standard of living in russia was raised dramatically from the time the czar was ousted to wwII

Yeah, the fact that Russia became a prison known as the USSR and systematically exterminated tens of millions of its own people to make it happen isn't a valid argument.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The pay is not commeserate with the schooling and the skills in the canadian healthcare system and the incompetent boob makes about the same as the highly skilled and talented one.

I also note that in your salary charts, US docs make about 40% more than Canadian docs do, comparing $US to $CDN. It's hard to say just what that means. For example, US docs have much higher insurance bills (one source I read said it can be 100K/year!) and are often left with crippling medical school loans. OTOH, less tax in the US. Etc, etc.

again no incentive for performance.

Here in Canada, doctors get paid by the procedure. Better docs have more patients, do more procedures, and therefore make more money. Also it seems to me if you want to get that well-paying job as an ER doc in Toronto you'd have to prove yourself elsewhere first.

If a doc is in a hospital or educational system they have an opportunity to advance in position within that institution. A pediatrician buddy of mine was instrumental in creating a pediatric ER in a local hospital and based on that got to head a pediatric ER in a sick kids' hospital in another city. That seems to be performance-based incentive to me.

I'm not really sure how it's so much different in the US, competition-wise. We choose our own doctors here, same as you. Doctors compete for prestigious positions in hospitals and schools, same as you.

[bobdea]

well yeah, I was taught B.

Yeah, the fact that Russia became a prison known as the USSR and systematically exterminated tens of millions of its own people to make it happen isn't a valid argument.

missing the point entirely, I was stating that modernization and a upwardly moving standard of living came with the industrial revolution regardless of the political system involved. Countries have and do still experience this at different times. Look at the developing countries in Africa and Asia.

I was making no statement for or against communism. I was pointing out that the apparent indirect argument in the text you posted was that capitalism is what is responsible for modernization.

Regardless of the system innovation happens for a multitude of reasons and economic growth is not limited to pure capitalist societies or free ones for that matter.

I can easily make the same argument for hitler's germany, fascism.