Bending the board into smaller turns

[Loc]

I've been reading that you can force a board with a large sidecut radius into a smaller turn by bending/decambering it. I had no idea what to do so I tried stomping on my board mid-carve and that resulted in the most bone rattling chatter ever

Can you guys explain to this padawan learner how to bend the board?

[carvedog]

I've been reading that you can force a board with a large sidecut radius into a smaller turn by bending/decambering it. I had no idea what to do so I tried stomping on my board mid-carve and that resulted in the most bone rattling chatter ever

Can you guys explain to this padawan learner how to bend the board?

If you got the chatter you were at the end of the carve. Usually to tighten the carve I do right after initiation and feed the board through really hard so I end up on the tail sooner and bend the tail more instead of the whole board.

Not a beginner move at all. And can have dire consequences if you aren't on top of your game, but useful at times.

YMMV

[mr_roboteye]

In order to pull this off right, you've got to have aboard that will bend enough. I'm sure you will find this video quite educational. The renntiger he's riding is so soft you can easily see him twisting the board between turns. I imagine he's running OS1's or TD1's to get that much action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWUtrfpbcKE

later,

Dave R.

[Vahur]

Use the force, erm, angulation:

Physics of a Snowboard Carved Turn

[Erik J]

In my opinion, it's not a different technique, it's just the idea of turning your board with more intensity. As your skills progress, you'll simply be able to ride harder and more aggressively, at a more comfortable level.

Look into your turns, your body will follow your eyes and head.

Practice fore and aft pressuring - using your front foot to pressure the nose at the beginning of the turn, then evenly progressing to pressuring the rear foot towards the end of the turn. Get both legs to act independently.

Keep your hands forward and low, reaching for your boot cuff mid turn.

Practice trusting the sidecut/turn radius of your board. Your board will make a very round, defined arc when you set your edge. Try to get used to that feeling of the board coming around under you. The more in tune you are with that, the more you can push the boundaries of the turn. Push yourself to trust your edges and your practice. You'll be bending boards in half before you know it.

FYI, I am not the one to explain this best, other's will be able to put this into writing better than I can. This is a rough interpretation of what it feels like to me.

[Hans]

When I carve my long sidecut boards into short turns, I mostly keep the board carving flat and make it fast edge to edge by using the crossunder technique. Board needs speed though to do this effortlessly. So as the speed is high enough, not much strength is needed then but you have to put a lot of energy in concentration, dynamics and control the fast movement. I use this technique when I want to go fast at crowded slopes at the side of the piste where it's easy to go over the loosened up snow.

[JJFluff]

All boards can be ridden at different turn radius's.

All that needs to be done is to get the board up on a higher edge angle. The amount of edge angle will dictate the amount of force needed to complete the turn. This will allow the board to bend more creating a tighter radius. At lower edge angles, the snowboard when pressured reaches the snow sooner which lessens the radius of the turn.

The force that is generated is done by pressuring the edge differently with compression, body positioning throughout the duration of the turn, and using the slope itself. You can even create larger turn radius's at higher edge angles by allowing the edge to disengage mid turn, then resetting the edge, changing its direction of travel.

You can get the board on a higher angle using angulation like most would agree on here, or inclinate your entire body mass as one. By keeping your body more inline, it allows the "weighting and unweighting" to occur in your turns much more efficiently. You can lower your center of gravity by compressing down, not by bending at the waist. It keeps your body in a much more athletic position, and thus you have much more control over the board and each individual turn.

[Jack M]

You can get the board on a higher angle using angulation like most would agree on here, or inclinate your entire body mass as one.

For a given sidecut radius and speed, there is exactly one turn radius the board will truly carve with no angulation.

"inclination" - the angle at which your center of gravity is leaned into the turn.

"angulation" - using your body joints to create an edge angle that is different from your inclination angle.

So by angulating, we can carve different radii at a given speed.

Also note that the sidecut radius of your board is actually slightly larger than the largest turn your board will <i>carve</i>. The mere act of tilting the board up on edge bends the board into a tighter arc.

[Jon Dahl]

Just as you can use your knees for turn initiation by "opening" them up ( I believe I stated that right) you can tighten up a turn with your knees. As you begin the turn, after it is initiated, start to GENTLY bring your knees closer together front to rear. You should be able to feel what the board is doing underneath you as you do this. I've used this agressively to avoid someone on the slope. Go slowly at first...don't break anything.

[Bruce Varsava]

Just buy another board:)

Having tested all kinds of different stiffness boards really gives me a feel for what you can get away with. The metal boards have a greater ability to decrease the radius especially compared to my glass models. Chatter is often a sign of too stiff. I was riding an 85 a few days ago built for a lighter rider, just couldn't make it chatter no matter what . Same day tested a stiffer 79, small amount of chatter especially on real hard snow.

BV

[Jack M]

Just as you can use your knees for turn initiation by "opening" them up ( I believe I stated that right) you can tighten up a turn with your knees. As you begin the turn, after it is initiated, start to GENTLY bring your knees closer together front to rear. You should be able to feel what the board is doing underneath you as you do this. I've used this agressively to avoid someone on the slope. Go slowly at first...don't break anything.

forcing your knees together does not bend the board into a smaller continuous arc. all it might do to the board is put a kink in it between your feet. this is not what you want.

people perceive this "technique" as forcing their board into a tighter turn, but what really probably happens is it causes you to angulate more and tilt the board up higher. that results in a tighter turn. you can and should angulate without jamming your knees together. riding with knees together is less balanced.

[BadBrad]

You guys all make it sound so easy, but I've been struggling with tightening up my turns for a long time. Especially heelside turns. The faster I go, the bigger my turns get, which seems to be the opposite of what should be happening. I go faster and faster and the turns get bigger an bigger and I continue to accelerate until I have to skid to control my speed. I've worked on completing my turns (making full C-shaped turns) and trying to put the board higher on its egde, but I still can't seem to tighten up my heelsides, especially on steeper terrain. The one thing that I found that helps a little is to put more pressure on the nose of the board, but that still only seems to work on a more moderate pitch.

[Hans]

Just keep your weight downhill, upperbody upright, your hips pushing forward,

board keeping in a flat carve, knees a little bend, fast crossunder and you need just one meter tops to make short turns. That's how I do it. A french snowboardinstructor said once to me that I go too fast with this technique at the side of the pists but I don't care, it helped me, just my two cents. You don't need to cranck down a board to the utmost to get short carves out of it.

[Jack M]

You guys all make it sound so easy, but I've been struggling with tightening up my turns for a long time. Especially heelside turns. The faster I go, the bigger my turns get, which seems to be the opposite of what should be happening. I go faster and faster and the turns get bigger an bigger and I continue to accelerate until I have to skid to control my speed. I've worked on completing my turns (making full C-shaped turns) and trying to put the board higher on its egde, but I still can't seem to tighten up my heelsides, especially on steeper terrain. The one thing that I found that helps a little is to put more pressure on the nose of the board, but that still only seems to work on a more moderate pitch.

Try this simple practice drill: put your rear hand on your front boot cuff and hold it there throughout your heelside turn. Try again with the front boot toe. Keep your shoulders level while doing this. The point is to get you angulating at the hip. I'm practically doing this in my avatar.

[Hans]

This is a very good drill to keep your shoulders perp. to your board. It helped me a lot too to correct my over rotating body (where it shouldn't be).

[Mike T]

If you're going faster and your turns are lengthening, it's quite possible that you're standing up on your board and not angulating at higher speeds, thus reducing your edge angle. I still fall into this trap when I get going faster than I want to. Sinking back into an angulated position from standing tall while going fast is scary, but very rewarding when you pull it off as you generally get a hard and fast turn from it. (And equally painful when you mess it up, so be careful!)

[KingCrimson]

Getting the correct radii of a turn just kind of comes. I used to way overthink carving asking all these questions...Spending more time riding and watching other carvers results in sudden revelations. I had a few heelsides where I ended up spinning on my ass because of heelside angulation. I had no clue I was even doing so, let alone to such an extent. The big radius really gives you a lot of time in a turn to drop into a deep carve.

[Jon Dahl]

you can and should angulate without jamming your knees together

I never said anything about jamming, or about putting your knees together. Properly set up, you shouldn't be able to do that, yet you can force a tighter turn. I have experienced it, just do not know how to explain it, and it wasn't about angulation, it was physically tightening the turn by board pressure lenght-wise...and I agree with you, Jack, on the various techniques you are talking about.

[Cuban Carving Gooding]

A photo would help us give better advice .But here it goes. Chatter is most often from improper body position. You CANT leave your hand back if your board is at moderate angle.If your hand is front of you your shoulder will follow and that puts weight on the edge. Jacks drill will help you if that's what you are doing. I think you should work on the board angle. Even if you do one turn and stop. A slower speed and higher angle will use all your momentum and you stop. JJFluff also has good advice. Well everyone has good points but not knowing your riding level you might not be able to implement any of it. Look at Jacks avatar see the board angle. Work on the board angle and body angulation. I looked at your avaitar looks like your right hand is back behind your body.You need to drive the hand forward. Let me know if I'm off track or post A pick. That's my 0.02 cents.

[kjl]

forcing your knees together does not bend the board into a smaller continuous arc. all it might do to the board is put a kink in it between your feet. this is not what you want.

people perceive this "technique" as forcing their board into a tighter turn, but what really probably happens is it causes you to angulate more and tilt the board up higher. that results in a tighter turn. you can and should angulate without jamming your knees together. riding with knees together is less balanced.

I know the math says this is true, but in practice I believe you can change the arc of your turn by jamming your knees together, especially if you are on a board that is too stiff. This isn't a theoretical physics problem with a perfectly flat plane of infinitely hard snow in a vacuum: if the center of the board doesn't carve exactly as deep a trench as the tip and tail, the effective sidecut radius can be significantly changed.

e.g. on my stiff F2, if I am making a turn and my weight is not heavily on the nose, sometimes the board just will not decamber as much as all the trigonometry says it should given the edge angle of the board, and by jamming the back knee towards the front or pulling the front towards the back (effectively decambering the board by force) I can significantly alter my turn.

I also do not believe that pushing your knees together dynamically in the middle of a carve or just while adjusting to conditions is "less balanced". You could make the case that riding with your back knee permanently stapled to your front ala Craig Kelly will leave you less maneuverable, but adjusting where your knees is fine, even if sometimes that means your knees get closer together. Your balance points are your feet; a narrow stance is less balanced than a wide stance (I know - I ride a 16.5" stance), but the position of the knees doesn't affect my ability to balance as long as they are bent enough to allow for freedom of movement.

To answer the OP's question (sorry for the hijack):

I believe there are a number of ways to bend the board more, especially if you have a stiff board (not in any particular order)

1) put more weight on the front foot and less on the back.

2) push harder, especially on the front foot, when first entering the turn.

3) more angulation (lift the inside shoulder even more)

4) more edge angle (lean over more)

5) push your knees together ;)

etc.

btw, I would not recommend pushing your knees together as a normal way to change your turn radius. I think any of the first 4 are fair game though.

[Jack M]

I never said anything about jamming, or about putting your knees together.

you can tighten up a turn with your knees. As you begin the turn, after it is initiated, start to GENTLY bring your knees closer together front to rear.

I guess I'm confused.

[Jack M]

if the center of the board doesn't carve exactly as deep a trench as the tip and tail, the effective sidecut radius can be significantly changed.

I'll go along with this. But that would be one poorly designed board. On a modern metal with more forgiving flex, or anything with a well designed flex, you're definitely not going to be doing anything good by torquing the middle of the board with your knees.

I also do not believe that pushing your knees together dynamically in the middle of a carve or just while adjusting to conditions is "less balanced".

Not what I was trying to say. I meant riding around with knees purposely stuck together all the time is less balanced. As long as your knees can operate independently is the biggest thing.

[Mike T]

For me, the most important step in tightening turns is to get the board as high on edge as possible as early as possible in the turn. Start the turn aggressively and it starts tight... add in other techniques as the turn progresses and you can make it really tight.

Various coaches have taught me that riding "from the board up", using ankle flexion to start a heelside, ankle extension to start a toeside, is a key to making this happen. I'm sure there are other ways but this has worked for me. When I pay attention to this detail I can start turns aggressively without having to throw my body across the board. The rest just becomes easier.

Surely not the only way to do it, but *a* way to do it.

Getting a modern metal board don't hurt either, as they go high on edge early in turns with relatively little effort

[Jon Dahl]

I guess I'm confused.

Sorry to do that...On my old Renntiger, I was setup @58f/53r and 3/3 cants. If you were to visualize the two planes my legs traveled in, you would see that the knees would never be touching, unless, of course, I were to "jam" them together. Not the point. Working the center of the board with gentle leg forces can bring about what the original poster was asking about. Not huge changes, but definatly felt change. All the importent technique suggestions NEED to be done first, this is just a little tool to get a bit of something extra when needed. I wish every turn was a nice clean perfect carve, and when they are its a beautiful thing, but when you are riding hard and varied turns, the board isn't static in the turn, and they do a lot of flexing around, in all planes. Look at any video of racing, especially seeing what a kessler looks like under a good racer. I'd never seen anything like that, looks like a snake underfoot!

[Loc]

Wow thanks for everyone's input, I learn something new everyday

I posed the original question because eventually I want to get a board with a larger SCR and in carving photos I am really amazed to see how much riders can decamber their board. I was confused and thought I was forgetting to do something if mine isn't bending like that.

So tell me if I understand this correctly: the board doesn't bend because of something you do directly (like muscling it), but it bends as a byproduct of angulation, inclination, and the force going into the turn.

When I'm on the mountain I do all the drills mentioned and they definitely work. I had to stop and take a picture of this heelside from last weekend in June Mtn :D Admittedly, I have a similar problem as BradBrad. My first few turns are good but I gradually pick up so much speed that things get sloppy and I skid to reset the exercise.