Cap vs sandwich construction

[Phil]

It could turn out to be one of the most in-depth discussion on this forum in years.

Here is the same thread from last year.

[bobdea]

All the cap crap sayers should then relegate F2 and Oxygens to the crap heap. I hope not given these decks are not mass produced. I hope you are following the gist of this argument. So, can I say most manufacturers, including Donek make sandwich decks because it is cost effective (bluntly, it means cheaper).

What should be said of the advanced cap/sidewall construction decks from Palmer and Nidecker? I hope the hardcore sandwich posters will acknowledge the advantages of cap and the cost of producing them.

Bola

http://www.allboardssports.com

1-303-415-1600

F2 and O2, Those boards are made in ski factories, they have the equipment to make cheap caps. I think F2 has moved on to sidewalls as well have not seen one first hand yet though

Palmer and Nidecker cap sidewall hybrids are like Rossi "Dualtec" style skis and boards that many companies produce is a gimmic if I've ever seen one. look at the major ski vendors on their consumer "race" skis they have dualtec or some other trade name for that but on the real race models that actual racers get the skis have the same topsheet but no dualtec, shiny doodads, textured topsheets and all sorts of other bogus gimmics, just a sandwich construction ski.

I know there are some perceived advantages to caps but I've felt that they were outweighed by their disadvantages.

[photodad2001]

I've owned 3 cap boards, none of them would qualify in my top 10 favorite boards. As a bigger guy (not sure if that has anything to do with it) I found them snappy but lacking in edge hold and durability. One was a Ride that I snapped the tail second season. I've only broken one other board. A Burton Air 1989 after nearly 5 seasons on it. Give me old school Sims and Barfoot construction that's built to last and designed to never go out of style!

[tufty]

consumer "race" skis they have dualtec or some other trade name for that but on the real race models that actual racers get the skis have the same topsheet but ..., just a sandwich construction ski.

The racers get their skis made sandwich for exactly the same reason quoted by Sean, viz "repeatability on a short run". It would be stupidly, prohibitively, expensive to tool up for a run of cap-produced skis and then only make a single pair of skis. All you're seeing there is the big lie - that super-expensive consumer "race" skis have any relationship at all to "race" race skis beyond "they come in pairs". Race skis are made for the racer, and are made to be thrown away - make a pair, racer doesn't like them for X reason, throw them away, tweak design, make a new pair, lather rinse repeat. The racers get what they want, not what they are given.

[D.T.]

Use of dislocation theory and advanced fracture mechanics has shown that properly constructed caps can rival sandwich.

you're a geek, quit getting all techy on us

we all know that science is just a joke anyways :D

[Dr D]

Thanx for the input Bola I hear the same stuff from john. He's definitely a physics geek and a composites specialist. He switched from sandwhich to cap long ago for specific reasons that I don't remember all of. Bottom line was cap made a better board and the downside was tooling expense not durability.

an interesting note to the durability issue.

Blacktail mtn, a smaller local hill, purchased all new identity snowboards for their rental fleet when they opened 10 years ago. Most of those boards are still in service and doing fine. they have a dedicated terrain park which no doubt is responsible for any that have died. Its a small hill but just the time factor alone is impressive. It also speaks to the design and tech features of those boards being well ahead of their time.

PS I made it a poll in an effort to draw interest to the topic. people seem more inclined to check back on the poll topics.

[bobdea]

The racers get their skis made sandwich for exactly the same reason quoted by Sean, viz "repeatability on a short run". It would be stupidly, prohibitively, expensive to tool up for a run of cap-produced skis and then only make a single pair of skis. All you're seeing there is the big lie - that super-expensive consumer "race" skis have any relationship at all to "race" race skis beyond "they come in pairs". Race skis are made for the racer, and are made to be thrown away - make a pair, racer doesn't like them for X reason, throw them away, tweak design, make a new pair, lather rinse repeat. The racers get what they want, not what they are given.

WRONG, local race teams buy the skis not just world cuppers. People ski on them all year, sometimes for a couple. If the consumer "dualtec" skis were better coaches would be pushing those but this is not the case. Look at the fishcer line, for years you could get the RC4 cap and the RC4 WC which was a sidewalled thing. Just about no one prefers the regular RC4 but it is what most shops carry for Joe Yahoo but the WC was never hard to get at all. the shape of these models are the same in most cases the only difference is construction.

I was not talking about custom jobs for world cup athletes, I was talking about real world race clubs.

IF CAPS WERE SUPERIOR IN THIS APPLICATION THEY"D DOMINATE! People want what wins, if caps performed even arguably better all the racers would ski on the stock consumer version of the ski. The ski companies would love it too.

[nils]

basically cap saves at least one big step of tooling in the process since it does the finish of the sides at the same time the board outline is cut with the bandsaw, hence saving two things for a manufacturer: sidewall profiling ( + material and labour cost) and sidewall bevelling after the press. This can save up to 25-30 euros ( 250-300 USD ( kidding ;) ) on one board produced in europe. The downside, as Sean said, is the need for mass production aka above 200-300 series to be able to get mold cost backs ( molds are much more expensive than semi-pro molds most smaller manufacturers make... a cap industrial aluminium mold is in the 4000-5000 euros range per size!, almost 10x the cost of a mold for a small serie of sandwich boards. If you know you are going to press 5000, then an industrial mold is required, and the scale benefit of cap vs sandwich is obvious... 30 x 5000 = 15.000 euros saved in prod cost.

Small series and prod reliability makes sandwich mandatory almost when it comes to production..

Bola: the examples you give are basically people that would rip on any kind of boards: those disciplines dont really require incredibly complex boards to ride, and the rider makes the difference in 99% of the cases ( Put Kelly Slater or Terje of the good times on an average board and he will rip it to victory. If cap was so good, you'd see them in WC skiis, even if the cost ratio was bad since they would use the best...

As for WC skiiers throwing away skiis like kleenex...untrue! They get pairs to develop and when the quiver for the whole season is set and tuned, they basically keep each pair tuned and untouched, just slight tunes here and there so the feeling on each particular pair is the same throughout the season. Countless hours are spent micro polishing edges, but you'll never see someone with a big file on an edge in the WC on a pair that is tuned already...This way the riders dont have to relearn the board/ski feeling each time and can concentrate on riding..

I like sandwich because it shows more man tooling than machine make, and because it is also easier to repair. I'll try to get Jacques write a few words of his thought on this subject too.. :)

N.

[carverboy]

Im a big fan of sandwich const. myself working in the ski industry for 20 plus years you realize how much more durable sandwitch is.

Having said this, understand that from a wear and tear view point most skis and boards are "worn out" internally before the outer damage mounts. Sure if you're a jibber you need sandwitch, period. but as a carver one of my all time favorite boards is the first run Nidecker Proto (latter models were not nearly as stiff) I thought of caps as unworthy untill I rode the Nidecker. I think you can build great boards either way but I give the nod in terms of durability to the sandwitch(unless it does'nt have a full wrap edge)

[bobdea]

It sounds like the perception that cap is crap you are perpetrating is at work with the local race coaches because WC racers are on sandwich. Tell us, how many WC racers are on production issue skis? You disputed Tufty's argument as regards top WC racers and then switch to local racers. You want to have it both ways.

You have failed to provide any technical or scientific basis for your position but just continue to shout down others that disagree with you. Look back at what Frank of Virus Snowboards wrote on this topic last year. He builds boards and he would not take the strong position you are taking. Sean of Donek is not in agreement with you either.

Please don't take this personal. It is clear that your experience with cap is not positive so keep it at that but do not generalize and be overbearing when you do not have the data to hold your position. It is clear now that cap construction is not cheap, contrary to your pronouncement; it is an economy of scale issue.

Bringing up the fact that F2 is switching to sandwich does not help your argument at all. At this juncture, F2 has no choice but to go to sandwich as their non-alpine market is defunct and F2 is struggling to survive. Remember when a lot of WC racers were on cap constructed F2. Also note that sandwich boards were around then until my friend Kessler came along, and another friend Grabner threw his hat into the ring.

Now on to the cap/sandwich hybrid, please provide data that shows that they were gimmicks. I know that Tommy Cszeshin ripped up the Olympic half pipe for the US team on such gimmick. The Carve Father rips on the Nidecker Proto and out carves many on such gimmicky technology. Sean Palmer dominated the boardercross on cap Palmer boards like the carbon circle and the Titanium channel. The Ti channel is a robust bombproof deck that totally rocks.

I am outta here.

Bola

http://www.allboardssports.com

1-303-415-1600

bola, either I'm not typing right or you're not reading it clearly.

Most racers on teams from world cup to local race leagues go for the actual race stock skis(excluding NASTAR beer leagues). Racers want what wins. Tufty came out to say only high calibur racers get the super rare one off sandwich type skis and the reason they are sandwich is they are cheaper to make in small numbers. What I am saying is those "throw away" skis are produced in pretty large numbers and also that if the consumer version of the same skis where better racers would know and would use them more often. Unless the whole racing world has tuned upside down in the last three years what I'm saying is true...

I like a bunch of capped board, just saying the construction is generally inferior. Actually, most of the companies that used caps a lot that I like their boards have switched to sandwich on their high end boards.

There a reason why park rats have been demanding sidewalled boards for awhile now, rails and caps do not mix well.

Bola, please show me the data where cap and sidewalled ("dualtec" "HybriWall" "CapWall") boards and skis are not gimmics and how they actually benefit the performance of the deck.

Also, show me where Sean said that caps out perform sandwiches in fact he said only one company even fixed the main issue with that type of construction and is now out of business.

Lots of guys used to do what you're doing over rear entry ski boots.

I like you and I realize you always say what you're thinking just like me but don't assume I'm un-educated in this respect.

[bobdea]

What ski company do you work at?

Or do you run a race team for the vanderbuilts?

[bobdea]

A buddy of mine is a tech rep for Rossi. What Tufty says is right. The only time us mere mortals get to see these skis are when Alberto Tomba comes for a publicity race or something (your buddy is a tech rep).

I have seen plugs, painted to look like production boots (no multi color molding)and stiff as hell. Graphics on skis that are just that, graphics, they even went to the trouble to try to make it look 3D. Two skis that "look" identical but have different cambers and one set weighed more than the other......Usually the skiers we see in the WC are already on what would be next years skis for the "race stock".

It is a different world than we see in the shops.

full of it, the sandwiched skis are not terribly hard to get ahold of, some shops carry full lines of them.

where do the skis under all these high school and college skiers come from? they are clearly different than the consumer models.

Do these kids just dumpster dive at the Rossi factory when a rossi sponsored athlete does not like their skis? There are other brands too.......

Only the most elite skiers can afford to throw away skis they don't like, ****, even many of the elite who are not house hold names still can't afford to do that and sell what does not work for them.

[KingCrimson]

After about 5 minutes of searching for longer skis, my dad found race stock Rossi GS skis. They are sammiches. Some kind of weird sidewalls that remind me of high temp ceramic electrical insulators, but sammiches none the less. "Hand made By Bob & Larry in the US", and brand new.

86 dollars with shipping. Brand new, hand made skis. If 5 minutes and 80 dollars isn't easy, I'd say getting an alpine board is like winning the lottery, banging Carmen Electra, and getting struck by lightening all at once. What a sensation that would be.

[bobdea]

I wasn't saying race stock sandwich skis are hard to get. They are everywhere.

I just know what I know......... You don't have to believe me. These skis never make it into consumers hands. It is not the skier paying for them, it is Rossi, to win.

YOU CAN BUY THEM!!!!!!!

From more than one company, the only ones given away are to the elite. The rest of the world can buy brand spanking new race stock you just have to know where to look.

Some companies you have to go through a rep others you find a distributor (sometimes a bigger area shop) some you have to call and place a order. I've seen Volkl race stock a couple places. all of the above had a price attached.

they don't give all of it away, most racers buy their gear....

Rossi, may not sell race stock, this would be surprising but it could happen. That also does not mean other companies don't.

What some of you guys don't know but are willing to say blows the mind.

[MUD]

YOU CAN BUY THEM!!!!!!!

From more than one company, the only ones given away are to the elite. The rest of the world can buy brand spanking new race stock you just have to know where to look.

Some companies you have to go through a rep others you find a distributor (sometimes a bigger area shop) some you have to call and place a order. I've seen Volkl race stock a couple places. all of the above had a price attached.

they don't give all of it away, most racers buy their gear....

Rossi, may not sell race stock, this would be surprising but it could happen. That also does not mean other companies don't.

What some of you guys don't know but are willing to say blows the mind.

And I'm done.

[tufty]

What ski company do you work at?

Or do you run a race team for the vanderbuilts?

I don't. A friend of mine does, as a designer working almost exclusively on race skis. I asked him how it works. He works in Sallanches, if that's any help...

Yes, there is a difference between "consumer" skis, "race stock" skis and "team" skis.

Renault make engines. The one that goes into a Clio isn't the same as the ones sold to F1 teams, is not the same as the ones used by the Renault team. Within the Renault team, the tune is different between drivers. I am led to believe that the same applies, at least for one Franco-Spanish ski manufacturer's products.

[nils]

three lines usually:

- consumer ( cap / dualtec etc..)

- race stock ( always sandwich )

- team ( sandwich prototypes made into custom boards for top end riders)

:)

basically what bobdea and tufty is the same no...? team skiis are next or in two years race stock models, but since they are team they are really custom to the rider.. i think its about 10 team skiis for a WC rider, each set differently for the different snows and disciplines. They indeed got fake graphics that make it look like stock race but they are not ( remember Isabelle Blanc at SLC olympics on that green Hot that was in fact a tropical tube prototype made for her...).

Stock race skiis are available in selected shops for the happy fews, or teams that can find them easily through importers etc...usually at fair prices.

Consumer skiis indeed have the "bling bling cosmetic marketing s**t that is just here to make it sell...If a gimmick on those stays more than 3 years its a miracle!

N

[bobdea]

OMFG about time

Team skis, very few people get these their designs tend to end up being the template for

race stock, very common and also fairly similar to the above

consumer, different gimmicked construction, has bells and whistles that don't ususally do anything and also usually has a mount plate built into the ski forcing you to use the ski builders or their partners binding.....

Thank you for acknowledging this.

Jesus ****ing christ it's about time.

[canuckcarver]

this thread is a good read but, how can you tell the difference between them?? (cap vs. sandwich) are there any visual clues? id like to have something to consider with my quiver.

[Gecko]

Most F2 snowboards are Cap.....

[Allee]

this thread is a good read but, how can you tell the difference between them?? (cap vs. sandwich) are there any visual clues? id like to have something to consider with my quiver.

I'm not a techie, but I always thought a cap meant the topsheet will wrap over the sides and finish neatly at the edge. A sandwich looks just like - well - a sandwich. When you look at it side on, you can see the top, then the sidewall, and then the edges on the bottom as three separate bits. Someone please enlighten me if I'm just smoking stuff.

Most stuff you see mass produced now is cap. My Donek and Coiler are both sandwich, but my Madd is cap. (Maddcap??)

[Dr D]

Cap boards have no sidewall. the core is radiused down to the edge and the topsheet and fabric wrap down to the metal edge,

sandwhich boards have a rubbery or plasticy sidewall between the topsheet and the edge. they have a square edge between topsheet and sidewall instead of a rounded topsheet to the edge.

here's a cap board pic

[canuckcarver]

ahh ok, thanks for the insight. +1 for cap