coiler all-mtn metal ?

[MR. JOHN DEERE !]

just looking for some input on the coiler 172 metal all-mtn. have any of you guys taken one of these for a spin or do we have any owners out there. when i spoke to bruce last spring he made it sound like it was one of the first ones that he had made, and said it was awesome. i was going to origionaly order the stock 172 all-mtn, but then he got my wheels turning towards the metal. well its about that time to sh!t or get of the pot, to get my order in.

im torn, im hoping that it will perform like the origional all-mtn obviously being more damp. but will it be dead in the softer snow? i always loved my 4wd priors for the days after a snowfall and a grooming. ive never ridden a metal board, i think my protons had some metal but i never used them in the soft stuff. thanks jd

[Mike T]

I believe I am in possession of the first Coiler AM Titanal ever made. It's currently my favorite deck of all time.

It's a 172, 21.5 waist, 12m sidecut. I have the exact same deck in standard construction. Bruce built the Titanal version, same specs, in late March last year, took it out for a weekend, and then sent it to me for an A/B comparison against my own deck. I did just that, doing back-to-back runs on the same trails on 4 different days in all sorts of conditions.

The pluses of the Titanal were immediately obvious: grippier on harder snow, grippier on uneven grooming. Easier to get higher on edge. Easy to throw around on steeps. Even more obvious is how much better it behaved on "fresh over s**t" off piste. Think chunky, icy, tracked-out crap with 5 inches of snow over it. Just more predictable and if I needed to hit the brakes it didn't throw me around like a rag doll the way pretty much anything else has.

It does give up a little bit of ollie-ability, and takes a teeny bit more effort to pump through the flats. I might have never noticed this if I wasn't doing back to back runs.

The tradeoffs are well worth it though because it's a night and day difference on harder snow, and especially chunky snow off piste.

Like I said, JUST DO IT.

I highly recommend the 172 / 12m, I feel like the 172/10.5 would be really tight turning in a Titanal version.

[MR. JOHN DEERE !]

thanks miguel,

100% sounds like the board bruce was talking about in march. same specs and everything. bruce did say to stay out of the woods with this board, because of the rocks. thats not a big deal, im not exactly having fun in the deep snow and my hardboots anymore, anyways! theres no room between the trees in the east.

cant wait to visit the rockies and sierras with this in my board bag.

thanks jose

[RDY_2_Carve]

I believe I am in possession of the first Coiler AM Titanal ever made. It's currently my favorite deck of all time.

It's a 172, 21.5 waist, 12m sidecut. I have the exact same deck in standard construction. Bruce built the Titanal version, same specs, in late March last year, took it out for a weekend, and then sent it to me for an A/B comparison against my own deck. I did just that, doing back-to-back runs on the same trails on 4 different days in all sorts of conditions.

The pluses of the Titanal were immediately obvious: grippier on harder snow, grippier on uneven grooming. Easier to get higher on edge. Easy to throw around on steeps. Even more obvious is how much better it behaved on "fresh over s**t" off piste. Think chunky, icy, tracked-out crap with 5 inches of snow over it. Just more predictable and if I needed to hit the brakes it didn't throw me around like a rag doll the way pretty much anything else has.

It does give up a little bit of ollie-ability, and takes a teeny bit more effort to pump through the flats. I might have never noticed this if I wasn't doing back to back runs.

The tradeoffs are well worth it though because it's a night and day difference on harder snow, and especially chunky snow off piste.

Like I said, JUST DO IT.

I highly recommend the 172 / 12m, I feel like the 172/10.5 would be really tight turning in a Titanal version.

Hey Mike. Sounds like an awesome board! So how much are we talking here because there's no titanal pricing on the Coiler site. Just standard construction costs.

Also any chance we can see a picture of this beauty?

Lastly does anybody know what Bruce's turn around is right now? I heard of an increased shop size to accomidate the high demand (and to reduce the long wait times for boards)?

I was thinking about ordering a Coiler EX but maybe a metal AM sounds better...or maybe a metal EX?

[Bruce Varsava]

Go for the metal AM as you can carve it quite hard and pretend you are on an EX board but still have more versatility. Has to be the 12m radius though

Delivery times are approx Jan 1 as I did get more orders than expected , also put in a few too many days on the kites and with the golf clubs.

The board in question was the very first and we both rode it with the exactly same impressions. My biggest surprise was that it felt at least 1cm narrower than the 21.5 it is. I softened up the very front to give it better initiation than a standard AM and that worked well as it didn't seem to affect the crud blasting

You do give up a bit but gain more than you lose so personally I'll be sticking to the metal for a board like that especially if it is not going to see real abuse. The mid section remains a bit soft and the combination of that with the metal does remove a bit of liveliness.Crap, even if I was going to beat it up, I'd still go with the metal :D

Cheers, BV

[RCrobar]

Hey Bruce

My impression of metal boards, only from READING what guys have to say on this forum, is that metal boards RULE in the crud, crust, crap and ice. The idea of an allmountain metal board sounds like an awesome combination.

But, the other impression I have taken away is that metal boards are fragile, have a short life span, dimple and bend in half, de-laminate easy, are super expensive and are best left to pros who pay rent with their wins.

The concern I have is when I hear comments like 'don't take the board into the trees!' How can a guy have an expensive Allmountain board that he is afraid to take into the trees?

Question - Are my impressions of a metal board correct or is this an out dated stereo-type of past metal boards?

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

Rob

[Mike T]

Hey Mike. Sounds like an awesome board! So how much are we talking here because there's no titanal pricing on the Coiler site. Just standard construction costs.

Also any chance we can see a picture of this beauty?

Lastly does anybody know what Bruce's turn around is right now? I heard of an increased shop size to accomidate the high demand (and to reduce the long wait times for boards)?

I was thinking about ordering a Coiler EX but maybe a metal AM sounds better...or maybe a metal EX?

I'll post a pic tonite. Mine has a regular topsheet over the metal, which seems to be the way Bruce does 'em for a guy my size (185 - 190). While I love the look of the "just titanal" top, this is telling: Prior told me to get a suspension kit to ride TD2's on my Prior Metal and Bruce didn't seem concerned at all about running TD2's on his metal + topsheet.

[pokkis]

I would also recommend suspension kit for extra protection combined extra luxuary ride

But if not using it then i would propose extra thin plastic sheet, similar to topsheet to cover top surfase from sharpish corners of black cemter disk. Otherwise you can get marks on your top, specially if you ride aggresively.

Any thickness 0.5-1mm should do, similar disk as Donek had for TD1's should do the trick :D

[MR. JOHN DEERE !]

brucey,

ill be calling you tommorow. i hope you dont think i was second guessing you when you said that this 172 was sweet! hope all is well, ill call you at 5:45am est. cheers for beers! joec

Go for the metal AM as you can carve it quite hard and pretend you are on an EX board but still have more versatility. Has to be the 12m radius though

Delivery times are approx Jan 1 as I did get more orders than expected , also put in a few too many days on the kites and with the golf clubs.

The board in question was the very first and we both rode it with the exactly same impressions. My biggest surprise was that it felt at least 1cm narrower than the 21.5 it is. I softened up the very front to give it better initiation than a standard AM and that worked well as it didn't seem to affect the crud blasting

You do give up a bit but gain more than you lose so personally I'll be sticking to the metal for a board like that especially if it is not going to see real abuse. The mid section remains a bit soft and the combination of that with the metal does remove a bit of liveliness.Crap, even if I was going to beat it up, I'd still go with the metal :D

Cheers, BV

[Mike T]

I'll post a pic tonite. Mine has a regular topsheet over the metal, which seems to be the way Bruce does 'em for a guy my size (185 - 190). While I love the look of the "just titanal" top, this is telling: Prior told me to get a suspension kit to ride TD2's on my Prior Metal and Bruce didn't seem concerned at all about running TD2's on his metal + topsheet.

I lied. Enjoying watching the WS Game 2 too much. I'll post a pic this weekend.

[Bruce Varsava]

Hey Bruce

My impression of metal boards, only from READING what guys have to say on this forum, is that metal boards RULE in the crud, crust, crap and ice. The idea of an allmountain metal board sounds like an awesome combination.

But, the other impression I have taken away is that metal boards are fragile, have a short life span, dimple and bend in half, de-laminate easy, are super expensive and are best left to pros who pay rent with their wins.

The concern I have is when I hear comments like 'don't take the board into the trees!' How can a guy have an expensive Allmountain board that he is afraid to take into the trees?

Question - Are my impressions of a metal board correct or is this an out dated stereo-type of past metal boards?

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

Rob

I can understand the predicament of the AM not being good for the entire mountain but its a chance that some are surely going to be willing to take to get the extra performance. Out east we have little and mostly no off trail riding but do get the crappy stuff like anywhere else so it'll be great for that. With the metal accounting for most of the structure you just can't add a whole lot more to juice up the strength. There are several areas when you talk durability and by varying the amount of glass vs carbon you can come up with what will be a pretty reliable board. I am also going with topsheets on most boards as it allows for a more consistent build and does help protect the metal from dings as there is some glass and carbon on top of the metal along with the topsheet to help out. Delams should mostly become a thing of the past as material selection and prep will make for some real good bonding if assembled properly. I can already see the increased bond in my own boards as if done right, the aluminum is literally fused to the rubber under layer and its the rubber which tears apart rather that peeling off the aluminum! This is of course of ultimate importance on the top where compression load tends to pop the aluminum off the board.

The thing that is exposed most is the edges as there is no easy way to beef up the support as the metal in the base actually stops just short of the edge and even if it did come over the edge, it really isn't too strong against those kinds of hits. Don't get me wrong as the edges won't just fall out and the only ones I have seen come out have been on 3 race boards, 2 hit stubbies dead on at the surface while the rider was sliding on his/her ass and the 3rd was a bad rock hit on an edge that was 75% filed off anyways. The AM boards are just too new to have any long term data but I'm not too worried about it. I use hardwood for support as on all my boards so it would have to be a real good hit to bash it up.

So for someone who is going to do serious off trail riding with a good chance of edge damage, these things are not for you unless budgetary concerns are not an issue.

Of course we are all in this as a new venture together and what I speculate in the shop isn't always the way it happens in real life. I have been working with the metal for almost 4 years now and am just now becoming confident with it being put out to the masses. Design issues are also a bit tricky as tolerances are tighter on these boards. I am now building probably 40% ish of my boards in metal so there is definitely a good following already and I speculate that will continue to grow. My website as usual is way outdated and I don't even have the pricing finalized for the metal boards. I am waiting till I get more proficient at it before I come up with pricing. Currently they go for approx the same as a high end glass board with all the goodies but that will most likely go up a bit in time.

Cheers, BV

[Neil Gendzwill]

Crap, even if I was going to beat it up, I'd still go with the metal

What about those of us who love the bumps? Historically metal anything hasn't been a good choice for bumps, too easy to take a permanent set.

[D-Sub]

God I LOVE this site...Donek, Coiler, Virus, Broz...these dudes come in and talk BOARD BUILDING with us! That's just awesome.

Thanks Bruce!

[Mike T]

What about those of us who love the bumps? Historically metal anything hasn't been a good choice for bumps, too easy to take a permanent set.

I have no qualms about taking my AM Metal into the bumps. Nothing's gonna happen in the bumps that wouldn't happen carving. And much like the fresh-over-crap, it behaves so well in bumps.

[bobdea]

yeah, my metal prior is the best GS stick I've brought in the bumps, the wall at kirkwood on any race deck is a bitch when glazed over all east coast like conditions but the metal is just so supple and predictable.

bottom line here is that metal is the ****, I've got two metal decks and a third one coming this winter. Binding are probably the issue with most the skis that break or tear out in the bumps because with skis there is a hard spot infront and behind the binding, these areas are where the major failures I would see happened.

I personally feel that with snowboards that this type of failure is less likely to happen in the bumps but more likely from either stuffing the nose or landing on the tail. some protection is a good measure so ride lexan sheets or a riser of some soft to protect your board.

[Mike T]

The deck:

Titanal layer:

[Guest naj]

do metal boards only have 1 metal layer?...at least i could only see one on the picture...i find this a bit weird since meatla skis have 2

[Chris Houghton]

Kessler metal and Prior metal have two layers, over and under the core, I'm not sure about others. That's why they are so much lighter than other boards, and perhaps also why they need a bit of protection between the bindings and the core. The single layer of metal on top of the more traditional construction is far more durable, in fact Prior has been doing this for more than 10 years.

[smaynard]

God I LOVE this site...Donek, Coiler, Virus, Broz...these dudes come in and talk BOARD BUILDING with us! That's just awesome.

Thanks Bruce!

[Guest naj]

Kessler metal and Prior metal have two layers, over and under the core

The single layer of metal on top of the more traditional construction is far more durable, in fact Prior has been doing this for more than 10 years.

doesn't these two statements contradict each other?

[Chris Houghton]

When Prior introduced "Metal" boards a couple of years ago it was with two peices of metal and all new internal construction (a la Kessler) as a result. Much lighter, but a bit more prone to damage. The traditional construction that he has used for over ten years is a single layer of metal with an otherwise more or less traditional core (rubber, wood, glass, epoxy, etc). So he has been making "metal" boards for a long time, just not the new style construction. Contradictory, no. Confusing, perhaps. Different? For sure.

[csquared]

...there are two layers of Titanal on Coiler boards. The bottom layer is not visible from the side of the board because it is captured inside the steel edge (it sits entirely within the boundary created by the steel edge and its bonding flange. That is, the Titanal on the bottom is bonded directly to the top of the p-tex (to which the edges are also initially adhered) and is overlaid with glass. This why Bruce notes that a good shot to the edge or the bottom of the board is a threat to the Titanal and the reason one should really stay out of conditions where buried rocks might be encountered (eg. the woods or at least woods in the east).

The lay-up of the board is difficult to picture but I am hoping to rectify this soon with the publication of an article on building a board with Bruce (complete with lots of pix). Stay tuned as I am in the last stages of editing and additing captions.

[RCrobar]

Is it possible to repair core shots and de-laminations on a metal board?

My question is directed towards the Coiler Allmountain two layers of metal and wood type construction.

(I’m guessing the Kessler new style core is a bitch to fix.)

I realize that this type of question is a tough one to answer as it would depend on the type and severity of the damage.

Hypothetically and for the sake of conversation, can you work to repair a metal board as effectively as a traditional wood core board?

[csquared]

I'm not an expert but I do know that the issue is really about tears in the Titanal. The metal is no thicker than the aluminum on a typical soda can. We've all mutilated a Coke can and know that it is easy to start a tear in the metal. Theoretically if you could make a true circular hole shot, stresses in the metal could be persuaded to resolve themselves around the discontinuity but most hole shots are jagged and tears propagate easily from them. So, I would have to say hole shots are not really truly and permanently repairable and may eventually lead to a tear under stress.

Delaminations are problematic because Titanal doesn't even like to be adhered in the first instance and has to be etched or anodized to hold a bond with epoxy. Even the anodizing is only effective for about 3 months from the date of treatment if left exposed and permitted to oxidize. With a delamination, it would be nearly impossible to get at the surface of the metal to clean and treat it for epoxy work. In addition, the delamination would likely involve some distortion of the metal and it would be like trying to flatten a piece of aluminum foil after using it. So, again I would say delaminations are likely irrepairable in most cases.

That's my amateur opinion.

[Mike T]

CSquared, thanks - I was not aware of the second layer. I might be a teeny bit more careful with mine knowing that, I will still be taking it into the trees though. I'll just wait till I've done a few days on its standard-construction brother without incident before I do.

(Edit: Reread Bruce's post above, should have been aware of the 2nd layer!)

Crap, even if I was going to beat it up, I'd still go with the metal

When it comes down to it, I'll take mine into trees that I know well, off-piste steeps that don't involve known rocks just below the surface, etc. For freeding at unfamiliar resorts it'll be the standard construction one, and for occasional trips into the terrain park as well.