New boots, 225 or 325?

[twelsch42]

This will be my first year on hardboots. I'm skinny and tall - 6'2" 160lbs. I'm starting with a 169 Prior 4x4. I like to ride all over the mountain, and am usually trying to keeping up with skiers. I prefer to ride the powder, but want to be able to get some G's on the groomers at the end of a tree run. I'm planning to use these boots next year on a split-board in the back country.

After reading AllMountain's thread, I'm a little scared about trying to ride everything in anything but the most flexable hardboot. I'm planning to ride TD2's (yellow) on a yellow suspention kit, and a soft or medium BTS kit.

If I wanted to spend all day learning to EC, this would be a no-brainer and I'd get the 325's...

Thanks for your input.

twelsch

[Neil Gendzwill]

225, no doubt at all in my mind with your weight and application.

[Gecko]

definitely the 225's

[D-Sub]

not that Im an expert, but...soft EVERYTHING for freeride, and you CAN learn to carve with a less stiff setup. More surfy style but nothing wrong with that.

[Gecko]

More surfy style but nothing wrong with that.

[D-Sub]

I posted that because when I posted some vid of me a while back a few people said "your style is more surfy, but..." as if that was a bad thing?

I admittedly lose it on ice/steeps but I stopped caring as much. I have fun.

[vapor]

Ive run 325s in the past on the split and they were alright.Definitely felt better than an at boots. There is a weight issue when using carving boots, though its nice that you can buckle up tight after skinnig up. Tele nazis dont wait for you to tighten up your soft boots.

[bobdea]

This will be my first year on hardboots. I'm skinny and tall - 6'2" 160lbs. I'm starting with a 169 Prior 4x4. I like to ride all over the mountain, and am usually trying to keeping up with skiers. I prefer to ride the powder, but want to be able to get some G's on the groomers at the end of a tree run. I'm planning to use these boots next year on a split-board in the back country.

After reading AllMountain's thread, I'm a little scared about trying to ride everything in anything but the most flexable hardboot. I'm planning to ride TD2's (yellow) on a yellow suspention kit, and a soft or medium BTS kit.

If I wanted to spend all day learning to EC, this would be a no-brainer and I'd get the 325's...

Thanks for your input.

twelsch

if you want a softer boot I have to say go for the softest heads because the old school deeluxe boots have a issue with the cuff alignment mechanism that can lead to ****ing explosions with your ankle sucking it all up. bad design that should of been dealt with in the 90s when the boots were new. Hell, even Burton fixed theirs that had a similar issue that was not nearly as bad and they fixed the issue in '99

if you were dead set on the deeluxe stuff I'd say get the suzuka and put the RAB on it with softish springs

the Suzuka is pretty soft when locked where as the indy is nearly unridable if you install the locking mechanism from the lower end deeluxe boots

if you put springs in the Suzukas I think you'd have the most adjustable boot without the possible blow outs that the 225 and 325 offer

[twelsch42]

if you want a softer boot I have to say go for the softest heads because the old school deeluxe boots have a issue with the cuff alignment mechanism that can lead to ****ing explosions with your ankle sucking it all up. bad design that should of been dealt with in the 90s when the boots were new. Hell, even Burton fixed theirs that had a similar issue that was not nearly as bad and they fixed the issue in '99

if you were dead set on the deeluxe stuff I'd say get the suzuka and put the RAB on it with softish springs

the Suzuka is pretty soft when locked where as the indy is nearly unridable if you install the locking mechanism from the lower end deeluxe boots

if you put springs in the Suzukas I think you'd have the most adjustable boot without the possible blow outs that the 225 and 325 offer

Maybe I should have specified - I'm only talking about the new 07/08 Deelux models. BTS and RAB are the same idea right? The suzuka no longer exists in name, 700 is it's current equilivant.

Can you direct me towards more info on deelux's current 225 and 325's blowing up? Maybe i've missed something. You're pretty much saying that the current 225's and 325's are not a safe boot. And I should look at something even more stiff than I was thinking before.

Can you please explain a little more? The consesus so far is that the 225's would do me fine.

I have a really narrow foot which turns me off from the Head boots.

thanks for your help

twelsch

[bobdea]

the 225 and the 325 are the same thing as the old SB(224 225 324 325 423) series, no difference unless you think buckles are a huge difference.

there are a bunch of threads that deal with this issue but as of right now here is a better description http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=16343&highlight=cuff+explode

there are allot of fixes for the situation and even if they do not break they still tend to slip at the wrong time and the damn hex head is 3 mm so it strips REALLY easily

poor design

[Sinecure]

Speaking of splits and going BC...

Has anyone undertaken the project of putting some sort of sole material onto the arch area of a SB boot? Anyone care to experiment, take pictures and post a how-to?

When you walk around on rocks and climb, the hard soles of our boots can make travel pretty trecherous. Adding some Vibram sole material, or something like that, to the arch area could alleviate some of this trouble.

Anyone?

[Neil Gendzwill]

there are a bunch of threads that deal with this issue but as of right now here is a better description http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=16343&highlight=cuff+explode

That's another thread that has you explaining the problem but nobody else complaining. I've never had an issue. Are there really lots of people that experience this?

[twelsch42]

That's another thread that has you explaining the problem but nobody else complaining. I've never had an issue. Are there really lots of people that experience this?

I can find threads that say "don't ride in walk/powder mode on hardpack" - but the BTS system solves this particular issue if you need more flex.

With all the people on 2nd hand rachles, I would expect to see threads titled "my old 224's blowed up on me" if there was this huge issue. I having a hard time with this.

thanks

twelsch

EDIT: thinking a little more about the physics involved... I can see where when locked in a forward lean position, energy is going to be transfered right through the cuff bolts. This is the weakest link, if you are locked in on your forward lean. The stress on your boot is going to manifest it self as a loosening around the two side bolts/connection. With a softer BTS, you greatly reduce the stress you're asking the cuff bolts to manage. The energy is absourbed in the spring, not the plastic around the cuff bolt.

I'm confident that at my weight (160) and with the BTS that I won't have any issues, atleast untill I can get more than 120 days on them.

What do you think

twelsch

[yyzcanuck]

If I thought you weren't going to progress further in carving, I'd point you toward the 225 but... given that many people find themselves really enjoying the feel of a crisp clean carve, I suggest that you purchase the Track 325T.

Here's a comparison of last season's boots to help you decide. This season's comparison will be available in a few weeks... maybe.

With the slightly stiffer shell (due to material) of the 325 it can provide you with a good foundation for later. Given its somewhat soft tongue it will still provide ankle flex even in lock mode.

Here's a short description on flex.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Interesting article on flex, Dave. You wrote in that article with regard to the SB series of boots (now 225/325):

Ankle flex can be nearly eliminated by locking the boot in a given position with the 5 position lean mechanism. There will be a small amount of ankle flex even with the boot locked due to shell flex/distortion.

I find with my 224s that I have plenty of ankle flex with the boot locked, and due to the softness of the shell I also get lateral flex which I like. With the boot unlocked, it becomes too floppy for my tastes.

Is the Track 700 the Suzuka replacement? Does it have any lateral flex?

[yyzcanuck]

Agreed, some boot models were made of much softer material than others. Maybe a poor choice of words on my part but I was trying to illustrate the difference between shell stiffness and ankle flex. What you're feeling is a lack of shell stiffness that manifests itself as ankle flex.... there, how's that for double speak!!?

The Track 700 is replacing both the INDY and the SUZUKA for this (and upcoming) seasons. The lower shell and cuff material is the same as the INDY and 325 of last season. Tongue material is unknown at this point but I suspect it will be slightly softer than the shell/cuff with the possibility of upgrading the tongue to stiffer material.

The AF boot shell (Track 700, INDY, SUZUKA) in my opinion, has substantially less lateral flex than the SB boot shell (Track 325, 225, LeMans) due to skeletonization (thicker, reinforced areas) of the lower shell. The cuff/tongue interface is stiffer than the SB too so... these two things add up to a stiffer shell feel.

AND... I don't recall whether you have INTEC™ or standard bindings. If you're using standard bail style bindings, the lateral flex you're feeling may in fact be the heel and toe pads yielding. Under the heavy stresses of carving, the heel pads compress and distort (like they should). Some heel/toe pads are much softer than others so this might also be contributing to what you feel as lateral flex but might be better described as lateral roll.

To get rid of some of that sloppy feel in walk mode, I'll quote from another post I made...

"By adjusting how tight the lower cuff buckle/band is, you can increase or decrease the amount of forward lean. Tighter = less forward lean. Looser = more forward lean.

In fact, I'd go as far as to call this a Progressive Resistance device because as the fixed diameter of the boot cuff is flexed forward it meets more resistance due to the ever increasing girth of the lower shell."

[bobdea]

those threads on the old message board where people had put nuts, epoxy and other various things in them?

it's not just me, I'll paste in a blurb from the carvers almanac: http://www.alpinecarving.com/boot_models.html The cuff cant adjusters on the Raichle SB-series boots are notorious for breaking. Be sure the cant screws are kept tight, because loose cant adjusters are more prone to breakage. The cant adjusters are more likely to break from added stress if you lock the lean adjusters and use lower binding angles. When they break, you must drill them out and replace them with rivets or bolts. People often fix them by permanently gluing them in the middle cant position. Happily, if you buy the boots from Bomber, they will send you free cant adjusters if your existing ones break. Step-by-step instructions for fixing broken Raichle cant adjusters can be found here.

The cuff cant adjusters on the AF-series boots (Indy/Suzuka) are less prone to breakage, and have only two positions.

now here is a link on how to deal with the issue http://www.alpinecarving.com/hiroshi_cant/

[Neil Gendzwill]

AND... I don't recall whether you have INTEC or standard bindings. If you're using standard bail style bindings, the lateral flex you're feeling may in fact be the heel and toe pads yielding.

I use Intec heels. I can just stand on the carpet and drive my back knee towards my front knee fairly easily, and I like that. I've got the old black and gray 224s. I know when I first got them I was surprised at how soft they were, I went from Koflach Snowboarders which flexed a bit and stopped to these which have quite a progressive ankle flex IMO.

Bob, maybe I just got lucky. My cant adjusters have never loosened, although I have to keep checking the bolts where the buckles attach.

[Mark.Andersen]

Those SB series cuff cants definitely break, occasionally with disasterous results. I've got 2 screws in my ankle as a testament.

However, my bad experience was with SB225LTD, Race Tongues, fixed forward lean, and TD1SIs which was about the stiffest setup one could put together.

Now I ride a much more forgiving interface (SB423, soft tongues, BTS, and TD2SI w/suspension kit). I've gone about 4-5 seasons without any cuff cant problems.

[Bobby Buggs]

Me and a bunch of the Carve Fathers have been riding fro years on 224-324s in walk mode on the hardest surfaces the north east can produce with no ill effects.

[Buell]

Hey, I recognize that tassel! Welcome Don.

Buell