Swallowtail Opinions

[Bullwings]

I've been eyeing that board (rossi undertaker) since last year, but it was a hardboot only board and i was riding softboots at the time (although with a waist width of 23.5cm, i could probably get soft boots on it since i did that with an ATV and that's 23cm i think).

i'm probably not gonna get one though since i can't really justify getting a pow-board out in southern california. i figure an ATV is at least decent to ride in powder, although it'll never be as good as a swallow tail. i'll try to get my hands on a straight up carving board like a prior wcr or a donek fc instead (once i get the hang of hard boots) since i realistically have only one board in my quiver right now (my other two are some really old freeride no-name boards that i don't ever plan on using again).

[big mario]

board slut!!

[D.T.]

board slut!!

Jealous?!?

I just need something bigger. Last year I almost wiped out multiple times in the deep pow when I was following you and you did one of your ostrich immitations.

[RJ-PS]

Someone on BOL either has or knows someow who has experience on the Nitros. Please chime in. I have heard that the Powder Gun is relatively soft, while the Undertaker is relatively stiff. Any input?

You are correct, the Powder Gun is soft the Undertaker is stiff when comparing relative to each other.

[big mario]

I prefer the term " Head Auger" thank you very much, and no, I am not jealous

mario

[D.T.]

I prefer the term " Head Auger" thank you very much

Head Auger/ostrich immitation - either way a larger board should help me float better when I see you and bust into uncontrolable laughter! :D

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

General comments.

Keep in mind allot of the boards mentioned differ a great deal from year to year. Must talk "Apples and Oranges" to get good info.

Example: The Nitro "Pow-Pow", Powder Gun, Powder etc has allot of versions. Just as the Tanker 200cm. Each year is different , shape, flex etc.

Winterstick is indeed an awesome pow board, SUPER wide just in front of the front foot. Way cool until you hit the crud and hardpack.

The first "POW-POWS" were beefier (stiffer, thinker) that the next series that had inserts. The "Drew Higgins" with the orange stringers is really soft, big guys in super dry pow fine, otherwise get something stiffer. Perfect for the lighter guys that want to rule the big dumps.

Deep swallowtails do break (several hanging in the rafters I am afraid)

Tanker 200cm boards will only go up in price. The well is about to run dry!!

The Rossi 198cm is quite narrow, it is not a plate only board. It does have a soft shovel, it is a frickin POW ROCKET!!! , yet it can still CRANK on the hardpack. You need to simply switch gears and pretend you are on a 150cm race board!

There is NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT!!!

Swallowtails are the sweetest when conditions are ideal. Tankers serve far more conditions and frankly are a better bet on most days. Once it gets tracked you are not Hating it.

One of my favorites is the original (non -inserted) Pow-Pow 196cm

Enjoy!!

[Jim]

Someone on BOL either has or knows someow who has experience on the Nitros. Please chime in. I have heard that the Powder Gun is relatively soft, while the Undertaker is relatively stiff. Any input??

I've had two seasons on my 178 Nitro PG. Trees are killer and deep pow is no problem either, but I do lose speed on the runouts like I'm a little to heavy at 170#. I'd say that the Nitro has a med/soft flex with long swallowtails. It makes my 178 O'Sin 4807 feel like a plank through the trees. I was using the 178 Nitro and 156 HD Fish for the trees but the Nitro won out.

[Neil Gendzwill]

There is NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT!!!

Hey, I just noticed the pic of the DKM Tanker you've got there is mine. Couldn't find any other examples? Are they that rare?

[Guest thomas_m]

Also consider the Dupraz D1 - it's a 178cm pintail with big board float but rides smaller than that on piste.

I have a D1 and a 2006 Tanker 200, have ridden them both the same day, etc. If I had lots of room, and good snow, I'd pick the Tanker. It's one fantastic ride, float is unreal...

Unfortunately, I never have lots of room and good snow so I almost always ride the Dupraz. It rides very surfy, has great float, carves the groomers and just does everything well. Helluva board, my favorite except for the fact that everyone wants to stop me and talk about it...

T.

[D.T.]

The Rossi 198cm is quite narrow, it is not a plate only board. It does have a soft shovel, it is a frickin POW ROCKET!!! , yet it can still CRANK on the hardpack. You need to simply switch gears and pretend you are on a 150cm race board!

There is NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT!!!

Thanks for the input Brian. Nice gallery (I dislike you :) ).

I agree with the displacement comment. My only concern is that some of the terrain I ride can be tight for my 182 Tanker, I am concerned that a board at or near 200cm would be too much. I question if the 185cm Undertaker may be the best option. Right now I cannot afford to do what I want to do (185cm Undertaker, 198cm Undertaker, 200cm Tanker, along with assorted Coilers, Pogos...). Someday I will win the lottery and be able to buy all the toys I desire, I just have to start buying tickets first. :D

[D.T.]

Also consider the Dupraz D1 - it's a 178cm pintail with big board float but rides smaller than that on piste.

T.

Thomas - I have seen Bola riding his many times. I tlooks like a fun board, I would just like to go with something longer.

[philw]

I haven't ridden any of these. I have ridden with people who had the Nitros, and also Undertakers. All of those guys didn't take the STs out a second day: they hired standard powder boards instead. These were all in the Monashees, which have the odd tree here are there.

Otherwise, they had some STs in the Future Snowboard powder board test last season at Powder Mountain. I haven't read the report (we don't get the mag here), but some of the riders didn't mind some of the STs on open slopes. No one used them when the test was done and it was "play time".

One of the home page pictures at http://www.powdermountaincatskiing.com is a dupraz (you may have to refresh a few times to get the image). Powder mountain is relatively open in general.

If you want to go very fast on open slopes then don't turn. Or get a very big board: the tail isn't what makes it fast, so any old tail design will work. But why get a board which is optimized for the easy stuff?

Google about and you'll find Nils' site which is dedicated to STs.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

I can not comment on the shorter swallowtails , I did ride the early Nitro "Retro" back when it first came out. Very cool board, just way too narrow and short even then (I was lighter :rolleyes: then)

The conversations about swallowtails or big guns almost always focusses on the tail. The very high radius nose shape is also key in how they perform and feel in the pow. Rising to the surface easily and offering little resistance is part of the chemistry of a deep pow boards magic. Some long boards are basically very large free-boards. The nose radius is much shorter or "Tighter" and tends to what I refer to as "Barge" though the snow rather than to slice or glide. Similar to how a large river or ocean barge pushes up snow in front of it as it moves through the water. When a rider versed at free style boards first experiences this near frictionless speed or glide though the fresh, it can really be unsettling or it can be "release". Unfortunately it sometimes results in the rider putting on the brakes or throwing it sideways much too abruptly.

This in my humble opinion is why, to this day, few ever genuinely have experienced a good longboard/swallowtail in ideal conditions with proper form. It is not easy to get all the components together at one time and one place.

Are they the best for all around? Not in my opinion, Are they a unique tool that offers a very special ride? Most definitely.!

[skategoat]

I haven't ridden any of these. I have ridden with people who had the Nitros, and also Undertakers. All of those guys didn't take the STs out a second day: they hired standard powder boards instead. These were all in the Monashees, which have the odd tree here are there.

Otherwise, they had some STs in the Future Snowboard powder board test last season at Powder Mountain. I haven't read the report (we don't get the mag here), but some of the riders didn't mind some of the STs on open slopes. No one used them when the test was done and it was "play time".

One of the home page pictures at http://www.powdermountaincatskiing.com is a dupraz (you may have to refresh a few times to get the image). Powder mountain is relatively open in general.

If you want to go very fast on open slopes then don't turn. Or get a very big board: the tail isn't what makes it fast, so any old tail design will work. But why get a board which is optimized for the easy stuff?

Google about and you'll find Nils' site which is dedicated to STs.

Phil:

Can you elaborate? What didn't they like about the STs? I thought they were born for untracked, deep powder.

HK

[philw]

Yes, that's what people say. Seriously in several million vertical feet of heli time over many years I've never ridden with anyone who managed more than one day on an ST in BC. As far as I can tell it's because mostly where I ride there are trees, and I think that STs are hard to turn around trees or something.

In teh monashees a typical run may well be trees top-to-bottom; most runs start with glacier and progress through trees through to a clear cut. So you need to be able to ride those different conditions.

In practice what happens is most people end up on either large traditional boards, or Fish/Malolo boards. The theory is that open glaciers are easy to ride as fast as you like; bigger boards go faster, but that's not really an issue as you can go quite fast enough anyway. But if you want to ride all day then you need to be able to ride trees: tight, steep, all that stuff.

The cat stuff is a bit different in terrain and guests. The pace is a lot slower and [where I ride] there are fewer trees, so you could probably get away with big board. But not many people try.

To be clear, I think it's great that these things exist and that people ride them, and I would like if it they worked where I ride. However the "accepted wisdom", that Swallowtails are good for powder, is incorrect in my experience for heli and cat in BC. There are other types of powder and different terrain. To spell it out, if you turn up at Wiegele's with an ST then you'll be in a crowd of one (no bad thing), but experience suggests that you may need to hire something more suitable for the conditions.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

And it is probably their first day on a swallow!

They decide to go "Heli", then figure they need the ultimate powder gun.

And their first day on it is a Heli day. Generally speaking , that would be a mistake. This I know , due to the large number of people who write and want to buy a large swallow just for this purpose. They have never ridden one and the answer is "Not for Sale". You need to take what you have been riding or just a longer version of the free-ride boards. Best choice for most lighter riders is the fish. Silly easy and rides well in the trees. Whats wrong with that? Nothing.

We can agree to dissagree, few ever get to the point where they can experience a good swallowtail. It is indeed just hard to get the time, conditions and understanding to fully enjoy what these awesome board can do. They are indeed unique , different and often miss used or miss understood. Ride what works for you. Enjoy.

[Jon Dahl]

On my first day on a swallowtail, it took me 6 plus runs to just get the bindings where I wanted them, and this was a 4 ft of fresh day. After I got them where I wanted them, the riding didn't stop until I was worn out! The ride is way different from a freeride board, and you need time to sort things out. I'm just hardheaded enough to stick with it. 2nd day was in Utah on a borrowed Voile split swallowtail, I mounted the bindings in the lodge, skinned a couple thou vert, and had one of the best rides of my life in Monitor Bowl, and a lot of fun out through the trees in Big cottonwood. Hey Brian, I've got the 188 nitro (Blue one in left pic) for this upcoming season! Good match for the 178 I hope!

[utahcarver]

Someone suggested to go to eBay and type in 'wasatch'. I diligently did that and bought a Mojo swallowtail. As soon as I get it I'll take pics and perform a bench test. At $250 for a new swally how could I go wrong? If it is too soft I will modify it and use it as a very interesting coffee table. Pics coming soon.

Hey Dave, will hardbooter.com carry these boards soon? They're made in SLC. I hope they meet the stringent standards of the hardbooter.com crew.

Mark

[D.T.]

DT:

you should seriously consider the powstick.

Bola

Bola - I do not doubt that the Pow-Stick is a great board, the problem is I would only consider the new model with the revised nose, which means that there are not many on the used market. I cannot justify $816 for new or $650+ for a demo when I will only ride the board three, maybe four, times in a season.

[utahcarver]

Here's some pics of the Wasatch Mojo swallowtail that I bought last week off of Ebay. The tip has a soft flex. The tails are stiffer but still have a moderate flex. The board is stiffer than I expected it to be.

Can't wait to ride it.

Mark

[D-Sub]

that was me that made the suggestion about the Wasatch. Ive looked at them too, but its been so long that Ive been in a wide open untracked pow field

Ill just come ride yours, ok?

[utahcarver]

Thanks for the heads up on the Mojo. Duane shipped it last week and I finally got time to snap some pics of it.

I'm sure this board is capable of slaying many helpless powder fields. I'm tempted to ride it with softies first just to break it in. But, hardboots should more clearly reveal most of its strengths and weaknesses.

I should be able to put it on snow in about 8 weeks.

Mark

[D-Sub]

I should be able to put it on snow in about 8 weeks.

Mark

see below

[Mr.E]

Just saw the Wasatch at a ski swap the other day. Seemed fairly stiff for a swallow. I'd buy one if I wanted another (My 185 Undertaker does me just fine). Great contender for a split conversion, but I have no $$ for that at the moment.

If anyone can't push the 185 Undertaker through trees, they shouldn't be in trees. I put one of my soft boot students, who is a 150 lb high school kid (with ok skills at best) on that board and he ripped without a problem. My concern is that it almost turns to much with lots of pressure from me. I think anyone on this board could ride one in most conditions, though I have other boards i would rather ride in mank.