Question about effective edge...

[Guest NEngineer]

Hi Guys,

In the diagram below, I’ve divided the effective edge into 4 sections (a,b,c & d).

I wanted to take a poll to see what you guys think is the most important section of the effective edge while carving on ice.

Or, another way to phrase that question.

If you were allowed to tune just 2 sections, which ones would you choose to tune?

The section divisions are very random. Feel free to choose a cusp between 2 sections.

For example: I feel that the section C and cusp of A & B are the most important.

Now I know some might say that the entire effective edge is crucial. I know. But that’s not an option.

<O:p</O:p

Thanks guys.

Once I have the results, I'll let you guys know what all this was for.

[nils]

Depends on your technique of riding... example: EC: you ride on both feet and use the whole edge and balance the g force around a 180°arc. means you need all edge from tip to tail. Racing on SL board is different than on GS board too and would need critical edge in different areas during the turn: you still need the whole edge.

I think the way to know what is important is to imagine your edge missing at spots and try to figure what would happen> it will show how important it is all the way, and show there is no such thing ( to my opinion ) as 4 parts in the edge! :)

Nils

[Chris Houghton]

The part that's important is the part that's in contact with the ice. Riding style as Nils said.

[Skwalleur]

Still, the edge wears out differently on the sections of the boards so that would be a good way to tell what part to improve.

[mackDan]

Sorry, But I'm thinking about this not riding on ice.

OK if you have really good technique and can really ride the edge, Id say A and D. They get you started and they create the groove for the rest of the board to slide in, which means B and C (and D) need less sharpness to hold the edge. They will force the board to curve which will make it turn good.

But most people don't have really good technique when riding plate or Ice, I would say B and C, since people are going to tend to drop the tail or nose to get the turn started and then depend on the center edge to hold. But since the A and D sections are less sharp, they will tend to skid and the board wont curve as much and will be harder to ride.

That's what I'm thinking.

[BlueB]

I never had a nose slip, so A is not so important.

Most people ride with more weight on front foot, therefore B is important and C less.

Then, the tail is most notorius for skids, so sharper D is better.

Boris

[Guest NEngineer]

Thanks guys.

But I need a better showing from the East Coast riders. Come on guys. There is no wrong answer.

thanks again.

[ARCrider]

I like my boards sharp from tip to tail. no detuning. usually works for me

sorry I know its not an option but that would that be A thru D. entire effective edge

/different thread

and if you really want edge grip tracking

Ride a metal board. Outstanding performance on ice.

[jdgang]

I would go with B and C....since when I am riding on ice. I bend the board more and apply more pressure with my toes/heels. I would want the best edge where that pressure was being applied

[Istvan]

I think the question itself is not really good as you won't get a good performance having only 2 sections sharp. You can get bad performance and even worse....

Still I feel important to add that section A is really important to achive good edge grip as section A is the first to catch the ice. This is why you should never detune the tip of the board for carving. The rest basically follows the cut made by the tip.

Besides section A I do not know if any of B, C, D is more important than the other.

Best,

István

[ncermak]

just to be controversial...I'll throw out A and C... A to initiate, and C where the weight transitions to the back foot...or something...

[paappraiser]

greatings from the east coast and from Penna the king of all Ice .

We even name our mountains and trails after ice.

Whiteface = Iceface. (well NY has that one)

Camelback = Iceback

Bluemountain - Icemountain (We even have a trail called paradICE)

Elk mountain - Ice mountain

I could go on but you get the idea.

I would say b-c-d, I mostly loose in/on late b- to c- to early d

never lost it on my nose (a) mostly lose it on ice about b-c area, just as Jdgagn said "im bending the board more".

Now Im talking about real ice.. rock hard .. where the temp went up to the mid 40s to low 50's for a several days and then dropped back down to 20's

then the day you get there it was 50 and dropped to 28 in the afternoon/evening.. the mountian is 100% sheet of crunchy bone breaking ice.

Now thats ICE

[Guest NEngineer]

I think the question itself is not really good as you won't get a good performance having only 2 sections sharp. You can get bad performance and even worse....

Still I feel important to add that section A is really important to achive good edge grip as section A is the first to catch the ice. This is why you should never detune the tip of the board for carving. The rest basically follows the cut made by the tip.

Besides section A I do not know if any of B, C, D is more important than the other.

Best,

István

How about this: If there was some way to make 2 sections sharper than the others, which section would you choose? Basically, the other sections aren't downright blunt but just bite into the snow a little less than the other "sharper" sections.

[Istvan]

Now you really made me courious - where do u want to get with all the responses....

[Guest NEngineer]

Now you really made me courious - where do u want to get with all the responses....

All will be revealed....soon.....

[Bordy]

No matter what the snow surface a skilled rider will work the board from tip to tail using all the effective edge.. to keep parts sharper then other parts would decrease the board ride and response. People have tried to make short section with the ICE groove cut into the edge the create a "rail" affect Problem is board flex and rider style change everything so one board may need to be tuned different then the other. Why you have received some good answer from posters. Their is no correct answer because there are thousands of possibilitys.

Go ask world cup riders what they think the best bevel is then get ready to be baffled! :rolleyes:

[Phil]

If you are playing tennis against a player who uses a lot of spin and power from both sides, which quadrant of the racquet is the most important to have strung?

[bobdea]

I like the whole board grippy but when it comes down to it

B and C has to be sharp the rest I like sharp but I will live if its not

[NateW]

Seems to me that B and C (the center section, basically) have the most force on them, and are therefore the most important. Everything else is just a bonus.

That said, I have been wondering lately what the distribution of force is like on my boards, and what the distribution should be for best results. Been toying with the idea of writing a simple program to visualize the curves for different core thickess profiles, but I'm not sure I understand the math well enough.

[Kimo]

Seems to me that B and C (the center section, basically) have the most force on them, and are therefore the most important. Everything else is just a bonus.

That said, I have been wondering lately what the distribution of force is like on my boards, and what the distribution should be for best results. Been toying with the idea of writing a simple program to visualize the curves for different core thickess profiles, but I'm not sure I understand the math well enough.

Funny, my gut tells me that the most pressure would be at the tips due to the deflection/decambering. However, the analytical side of me says that (assuming a constant radius/curvature of decambering along the long axis of the board), the greatest force would be at B and C. Reason 1, the thickness of the board being greater at B and C would mandate greater force to maintain

constant curvature with the thinner sections, A and D. Reason 2, A and D are essentially the tips of a lever so the force transmitted thru your feet to the edge of the board will decrease in proportion to the distance from your feet.

I would think one of the board builders would be able to shed some light on this one.

All that being said, I'm guessing A and C would be most important because A initiates the carve and C handles the weight shift when I change edges, but that's just a guess because I'm bad when it comes to keeping my board tuned. In fact, I doubt I could cut a piece of perforated toilet paper with my edges.

What I really like is the tennis raquet analogy. I think quadrant B is without a doubt the most important one to have strung... well, C if you're left handed or French. Duh!

[NateW]

I'm figure I must be pushing on the B/C section with a force equal to my body weight, plus centripetal force, minus whatever force it takes to decamber the board (the tip/tail are transferring some of the force from the middle to the ends). I'm guessing those forces are about 175 pounds (body weight) + 175 pouds (1g @ 45 degree angulation) - 40 pounds (have to decamber about 3cm). The 40 pound figure I just pulled outta my ass.

In other words, I think there's only about 20 pounds of force each on the tip and tail, and ~300 pounds on the middle. Thus I figure that a snowboard could probably be a lot stiffer than average and still have most of the force still on the center (B/C) section. Not sure what the subjective effects would be, but I might have to find out.

But I figure the middle of the board does all the work, and the rest is just there to add some stability.

On a related note, if any carvers in the Pacific NW are interested in demoing some alpine prototypes this summer, and discussing the test program in the meantime (shapes, goals, etc), please send me a PM.

[Guest NEngineer]

Alright. Thanks everyone for all the input.

Alpine Base & Edge (Boulder - 15th between Arapahoe & Canyon) just acquired this machine that carves out sections of the ski edge. Hard to describe but the picture below will explain it. BTW, its called "Ultimate Grip".

Peter, the owner of Alpine Base & Edge, has tried it on his skis and loves it.

I'll most likely try it on one of my older decks to see how it feels on a snowboard. Right now I'm leaning towards cusp of A & B. and I was also thinking of offsetting it like a asymetric board. So this texture would be closer to the nose on toeside than on the heel side.

Unfortunately, my season has ended prematurely due to injuries. I'll just have to wait...... :(

If any of you are interested, go talk to Peter. Also, this guys probably does the best race tune in the front range. I'll put money on it.

[Kimo]

Unfortunately, my season has ended prematurely due to injuries. I'll just have to wait...... :(

Bummer, I was going to ask if you wanted to go riding in the next couple weeks. So, you say this place does really good tunes, huh?

[Guest NEngineer]

Bummer, I was going to ask if you wanted to go riding in the next couple weeks. So, you say this place does really good tunes, huh?

Yeah, it sucks but it's been a great season so I'm not too sad.

This is where Bola gets his race tunes too. It's a little pricey but well worth it.

-Neeraj

[Jack M]

So it's basically serrating the edge? Interesting. I guess I would do it on B&C. If I could only pick one, I guess C.