x-post: do you twist?

[Phil]

Some of you may remember Vlad - our guest for about 3 days on this forum until things got a little hot.

He and I are having a discussion on another forum that got me thinking about torsional twisting of a snowboard.

For those of you who don't know, torsional twisting of the snowboard, be it ever so slight, causes different amounts of pressure on different parts of the board. For example, pressing on the front of your heelside edge more than on the rear of your heelside edge.

So, the question is, what part does twisting the board play in snowboarding?

What are your thoughts.

[Guest needanswer]

sorry, not an expert, probably jack would have a better answer.

my 2 cents ,is that the twist can be good or bad

e.g. bad when you're in the middle of a carve, which could lead to chatter.

e.g. good when you're exiting and entering the next carve. this is just a speculation , being able to pressure differently the front and the back could enhance exiting the current carve and front loading could enhance entering the next carve.

better answer would be different boards have different amount of torsional flexibility. the technique of the rider can match the board's behaviour to create something good or the mis-match can be something bad.

[Guest azrcd5]

I don't really twist the board on my hard setup, but I do agree it is usefull for when you are finishing a carve and setting up for the next one. Part of the reason I don't twist on hard setup is the stiffness of the board (at least I don't really make the effort, however, I think that if you have proper form then there is some ammount of twist happening.) On a soft setup I have been doing it for a few years and sear by it. Try sort of kicking you back foot into the hill at the end of the carve while initating the next carve with your front. With the softness of a freeride board you can really feel the board twist and hook up into the next carve.

[Guest jschal01]

Twisting the board with your feet is something that I think is a useful teaching metaphor that does not actually happen in real life, except possibly with the tosionally softest of boards and then only as a byproduct. Pressing on the front of your heelside more than the rear I am quite certain causes more weight on the front of the board, driven into your heelside edge, but a board that you could actually visibly twist with your feet through the force of your ankles alone would be so soft torsionally that it would be awful to ride. Maybe a LTR is soft enough to actually do this, though?

At some point or another I've seen photos on the AASI site? (I think there) purporting to show twisting, and I didn't think that twisting from the ankles was what was occuring.

But, as one way of shaping a turn, I frequently feel like I'm twisting the board. So, helpful mental imagery.

Now, in terms of board performance, torsional stiffness is a huge element of desing. But I believe that's becuase of how the board interacts with terrain, not the rider causing the twist.

[NateW]

I've heard people talk about how it's supposed to be useful, but I don't see what torsional flex does that can't be accomplished with less effort by shifting my weight fore/aft and varying the edge angle. I'm not saying there's nothing to it, just saying that I totally don't get it.

If anyone wants to explain, I'm all ears...

[Sean]

OK, I'll give it a shot: There are 4 things you can do to a snowboard: Pivot it, pressure it, edge it and, yes, twist it. Since many of the alpine focused decks are pretty stiff torsionally, the twisting concept is pretty minimal. However, if you ride fairly flat angles and a relatively soft board like a 4X4/AWD/Axis, then you can actually twist the board to initiate a turn. Think about pressing down with your front set of toes first to start a toeside turn, then following up with by pressing the back toes down to finish and you have the concept. This is best accomplished on a long mellow run as you will have to wait a while (read- time it with a calendar) to allow your average alpine board to gradually edge into a turn.

This is a much more applicable discussion in the freestyle, boards that are as flexible as a french fry, knuckle dragger world. Nevertheless, it is a valid topic. I say this because I teach the "twisty" method of turn initiation to the french fry crowd. BTW, I do it on my Axis.

-Sean

[Guest Jan]

I've heard people talk about how it's supposed to be useful, but I don't see what torsional flex does that can't be accomplished with less effort by shifting my weight fore/aft and varying the edge angle. <snip>...

I think doing that does torsionally flex the board (among other things). On a stiff (race) board, the amount of flex may be barely perceptible to the eye, but that doesn't mean it's not a significant change in how the board performs. Let's use edge bevel as an analogy. A 1 or 2 degree difference in edge bevel is not obvious when you just look at it, but you certainly can tell the differece when you ride it. So if your board twists by 1 ro 2 degrees it may not look like much, but I think it still makes a very noticeable difference to the rider.

Seems to me that since you don't need to "twist" the board by much, torsional stiffness is generally a good thing on a board that you want to have good edge hold. Otherwise, you'd have a lower edge angle at the tip and tail than in the middle section, close to the bindings.

[LeeW]

I certainly remember Vlad. Im not too particularly fond of his posts. Just simply not too tactful.

As for torsional twisting, I wouldn't know anything about it. I just ride. I dont bother to pay attention to how I ride, unless I got coach sean/coach garrow to help me out with feedbacks of my riding.

[Istvan]

My 2 cents: if you ride at high angles to the snow and tight turns (e.g. EC) torsional twisting is something you don't want to happen - you'd lose edge grip immediately and slide....

Best,

István

[outsider]

I ride an Oxygen 170 LTD and have no problem utilizing the torsional flex to myt advantage. On a good day i am usually able to overlap my trenches at the tansition points of my turns for at least two to three feet, without running on a flat board. This torsional flex, although subtle, allows for faster transitions but the lighter construction of the board sacrifices dampening significantly.

I also use the torsional felx of a board to teach intermediate riders better edge control. When they are finally able to flex the board and get it to rail a set of perfect carves you can almost see the concept clicking in the head. The gaping grin on the student's face at the bottom of the run usually indicates their mastery of the torsional flex of their board.

[Guest jschal01]

I ride an Oxygen 170 LTD and have no problem utilizing the torsional flex to myt advantage. On a good day i am usually able to overlap my trenches at the tansition points of my turns for at least two to three feet, without running on a flat board. This torsional flex, although subtle, allows for faster transitions but the lighter construction of the board sacrifices dampening significantly.

I also use the torsional felx of a board to teach intermediate riders better edge control. When they are finally able to flex the board and get it to rail a set of perfect carves you can almost see the concept clicking in the head. The gaping grin on the student's face at the bottom of the run usually indicates their mastery of the torsional flex of their board.

I frequently hear overlapping trenches used as proof of torsional flex, and am not sure I follow. I do think it is proof of a quick edge change and of an effective shift in pressure. My point is simply that what may feel like flexing through ankle twist to you while riding may not actually be that.

[ak_rider]

here's my instructor's opinion:

pretty much everyone, usuing somewhat proper technique, use twist. It's used when going from one edge to the other initiating the turn.the alternative is straight dumping onto the new edge, which can lead to tipping over or crashing if you're going fast and is harder to balance. Twisting the board allows you to go seemlessly from one edge to the other. It also all but eliminates the chance of catching an edge, because if you're twisting you're always on an edge, and for a split second in the initiation of the turn you are on both edges. most people dont realize they are twisting the board, it just happens. it's not a great deal of twist, but as most of snowboarding is, slight movement get a large reaction.

twist is definately more evident on softies, but it does exist on hardboots too.

[roman]

yes babe, i'm with AK on this one!

[Guest Jan]

stand in your living room and try to twist. My board which I thought I couldn't possibly do that to I did with a great deal of effort. Chances of doing it on the hill... NILL

Stand in your living room and try to lean over into a fully laid-out carve. I tried and fell down. Chances of doing it on the hill... NILL.

[Phil]

stand in your living room and try to twist. My board which I thought I couldn't possibly do that to I did with a great deal of effort. Chances of doing it on the hill... NILL

I can stand in my LR and do it well on my F2 GS board. Then I can sit down and hold my board up in the air and do it well. Maybe your board is too stiff for you to do it, but I believe that the average rider can do this with their board.

Let me rephrase my question. The board is able to be twisted (maybe I should try to get pictures since some people don't believe that). Are we, as riders, able to use this twist to our advantage? Is it an active twisting on our part, or is it a passive twisting that happens due to our interaction between body, board, and snow?

[Dr D]

look at the tracks from the chair. as they change from edge to edge you can see that the whole board doesn't fall from one edge to the other all at once. I know you can control it on a softer board not so sure on the stiff stuff. on an old PJ on a cattrack you do it to run flat without catching an edge. step immediately onto a race board and try it you get dumped on your head. I would have to agree that it is part of the mix but probably not really something you can conciously control so much on the boards we ride.

[BobD]

I don't know if this would work but, on a soft set up we all twist the board to spin 360s flat on the snow. I havn't thought to notice if I twist the board in the same way in a hard set up. My guess would be, that if you don't do it spinning, then you don't do it carving/transitioning.

BobD

[Phil]

I am bumping this thread because of the discussion in the camber thread.

First of all, there is definitely a use for twist. This is not really up for debate. It is used in snowsports schools all across the US and is one of the four board performances of AASI. A very simple example is a first turn where a beginner goes from a straight glide and moves their front knee over the toes of the front foot. This distributes pressure on the toeside edge at the front of the board while the back of the board stays flat. This is skidded turn initiation in its simplest form. Of course, there are other ways to do it, but twist works in this simple description.

The debate lies in whether or not twist is truly useful in higher level riding and how much of it is active and how much is passive. The late Jeff Patterson (RIP) seemed to think that it was passive and coined the phrase "twist happens" suggesting that it is not something we do, but rather something that happens because of other things that we do. The other discussion often heard is whether or not the twist is an oppositional type (eg. heel down and toe up) or whether it is more of a result of pressure distribution (eg. toes of the front foot down rear foot neutral) and sequential moves.

You can twist your board by using your feet, but here is an example where simple body position will twist your board:

For a recreational hardbooter, when you are in a neutral stance on your snowboard, you should be able to stand on the flat and not have any uneven pressure points. Generally, this will be accomplished by lining up shoulders over hips over knees over feet. We hardbooters have found a lot of other ways to find neutral riding positions with cants/lifts that are especially helpful if you have quirky anatomy. Your neutral position should be comfortable almost to the point where you feel like there is no snowboard on your feet. At this point, your front and rear feet should be pressuring a flat board - no uneven pressure toward the toe or heel edge. Once you achieve this, you can understand twist by rotating your upper body toward your toe or heel edge. Rotate toward the toe edge and stop - say, maybe 30 degrees. When you stop, you should feel pressure on your toe edge on your front foot and your heel edge on your back foot. Repeat the same toward your heel edge and stop (again at around 30 degrees or so). Of course, this is such a small amount of twist, but nonetheless, it is there.

Now take it out on the hill. Here is just one example of how this can play out. Imagine you are in a toeside carve and are lined up well with your board right up until the time before you are going to transition. You are going to transition to your heelside, so you allow your upper body to stay static at the end of the turn while the board continues to turn under it. This will allow you to really nail the initiation of the heelside. This is called anticipation. This anticipation is getting you out of your neutral position, which will cause twist to happen as you enter and exit your transition.

The reason I am using this example is because of Erik J's post:

This makes perfect sense but I'm going to ask a possibly stupid question anyway. When turning "aggressively" on a toeside carve (as an example), in some instances the front of the board leaves the snow while the rear of the board still has the edge set in the snow. During this split second of time, if that edge were still set into the snow and your front knee began to rotate outward into a heelside turn, wouldn't that be torsionally twisting the board into what you guys are talking about - basically wrentching the sh!t out of the board to make it twist in the middle, thereby popping the tail out from under you. Maybe I'm missing the point but you guys have me curious.

Instead of going airborne, though, you can absorb the energy from the turn and keep the board on the ground. That is where you will really see twist happen.

Twist is done by the body, but exaggerated by ground reaction forces.

I only wish I had a pic me carving,let alone showing torsional flex at transition.

In keeping with my above explanation, here is a pic of a super fast cross through transition from toe to heel. The turn was made with almost the exact description of anticipation that I described above.

Whether or not you think that it is a pretty picture, ;) it shows a torsionally stiff board being twisted in transition.

This picture is an example of a turn that incurred twist through passive means. The twist was not intentional, it was a result of the body position and the ground reaction forces (it was a hard, fast transition).

The question that comes for instructors is - if "twist happens" then can we teach twist in order to help students achieve some of these higher levels of technique. I believe that we can. I use twist in mogul instruction more than anywhere else, but I have seen twist used in dynamic carving instruction be very effective (although I don't tend to use it for that).

[philw]

The UK snowboard schools teach beginners the same thing although they call it "foot pedalling". That's an improvement in that at least now they've figured out that the edges are important.

I think that a better question than those posited would be how much of this is cause and how much effect.

From the shot posted and Phil's narrative, here at least is clearly an effect not a cause. The torsional flexibility of the board is changing the angle the edge makes with the snow as a function of the length of the board. I'd say that makes little difference to this rider. I don't teach beginners so perhaps teaching people effect rather than cause is useful, but it sounds rather like teaching people to ski with their feet too close together.

I think that for my riding style (not that of the shot posted), I'm pushing my boards pretty hard. In my arrogance I think I need the board to be laterally stiff, although it's hard to be sure as you can't really do an A:B comparison of similar boards with different lateral flex characteristics. Even doing production board tests doesn't help there... but any board manufacturers here would presumably be clear on the effect of lateral stiffness on ride characteristics, if any...

On the overlapping trenches thing, I think someone explained that you can have some overlap from a quick transition but if it's a full-board-length then you have both edges engaged simultaneously which is a broken board or a pair of skis.

[frunobulax]

I'm quite surprised that board twisting is discussed here only as a technique helping (or not helping) with turn initiation and edge transition. Furthermore, I don't think that you have to twist the board with your toes or heels.

None of you remember the old knees-closed-knees-open-thing? I'm not referring to old style. I do think everyone of us uses at least a bit of "knee-steering" throughout the turn.

When I want to tighten the turn and get more grip on the rear part of the board, I bend my rear knee inwards, i.e. in direction of the snow.

When I want to loosen the rear end of the board from the snow, maybe to do a couple of metres in drift style, I bend my rear knee outwards.

This will cause the board to twist, and I definitely think this twisting is the reason for the steering effects mentioned above.

I know, you can do the same with your front knee, leading to inverse effects, maybe also helping with turn initiation, but I think that this type of knee steering is used much more often.

Maybe you don't realize that you are doing it (like most motorbike riders don't know that they do inverse steering with their handlebars), but nevertheless it's part of your riding.

[Littoral]

...

First of all, there is definitely a use for twist. This is not really up for debate. ...

It is debated even within AASI. For a long time there was no debate over the fact that the sun revolved around the earth. Bitchin.

[Phil]

It is debated even within AASI. For a long time there was no debate over the fact that the sun revolved around the earth. Bitchin.

I guess I could have worded that better. My use of absolutes obviously distracted you from the rest of my post.

The debate in AASI is more about it's usefulness, not it's existence. If you are standing on edge with your board across the fall line, you can twist your board (oppositional twist - front toes down, rear toes up) and it will cause the board to turn down the fall line. This is another example of using twist in its simplest form. Is there anything about this that you can debate (and I mean with a purpose other than just to debate it)?

The fact that the earth revolves around the sun is provable. The fact that you can twist your board and make something happen is also provable.

[BadBrad]

I've never thought about twisting the board -- I always just thought about being balanced on one edge and then transitioning to being balanced on the other edge. But I always struggled a bit with heelside initiation. Last season someone suggested that I put more weight on my front foot at the end of my heelside carve to transition to toeside. This made no sense to me since putting more pressure on my front toes would just lock in the toeside carve more instead of transitioning to the heelside edge. But I tried it and it worked great. It was more of a push down with the front knee toward the toes, then rotate the knee around to the heelside. I imagine that this twisted the board somewhat, although that's not what I was thinking about doing.

As an example of undesirable twisting, when I first tried to widen my stance (on a Prior 4WD) with the bindings set flat, my heelside carves were wavy. I then added some rear canting and fixed the wavy heelsides. This is exactly what Phil was talking about above.

Brad

[Jack M]

I do not try to twist the board deliberately. I think there are more important things to concentrate on while riding. Like balance.

[philw]

The fact that you can twist your board and make something happen is also provable.

Perhaps, but you haven't done it yet.

In the dynamic situation, as in the picture above, the cause and effect are the other way around - so if anything that suggests this is an effect of the turn, not a cause of it.

In the static example you provide here... Well let's assume that:

(1) we have a board flexible enough to twist torsionally; and

(2) there's some forward movement which can be used to turn the board.

The angle of the edge would vary along the length of a twisted board. But unless that variation pushed the edge beyond an angle at which it could hold the slope, I can't see what would cause the board to turn. Surely the edge would just track? Even if you could make it partially wash out, the part of the rail still engaged would continue to track, would it not?

I'm just sitting in the sun trying to understand the mechanics of this.