nils Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 "OK, I've ridden a sword. It's a mediocore board at best. It works well for what it is designed to do, but out side that relm it sucks. There are plenty of boards out there that will ride great in a varity of conditioins and turn shapes, and lay out carves. $900 bucks can get you a totally custom ride that will be exactly what you want, not just a EC machine with a worthless nose profile." (philfell, topic about wide boards) I still wonder why things get so aggressive when it comes about swoard...use of words like mediocre, worthless etc have so much resent behind.. we are kinda astounished of the overeaction the EC movement created... Strangely enough: it only comes from the US, and from certain riders, and we still have to understand why. We've tried and continue to explain what we do, and why we do it, and our goal is mainly to convince people that carving is nice, and that you can have fun out of slalom gates and narrow boards. Needless to say when we see reactions like this, we are kinda sad that despite all our goodwill, a few US riders feel attacked and offended that we do so. Behind the swoard board attack, is the whole EC concept ( which is not just about laying down turns) attacked and pointed as bad...We can understand that some dont feel its nice or usefull, and don't wish to ride into that direction.. but is is worth so much anger...? Shouldn't we all look at the same direction in order to help alpine riding develop? What images are we, as a community, willing to give to the outside? If you look carefully at any euro forum dedicated to carving, there is not a single agressive words toward a type of riding... motto is ride the way you wish and have fun, carving. What are your motivations...? Cant we walk along? Nils Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Nothing against EC as a style...but I think the point about board cost and versatility is pretty valid... for $900 you can have anything you want made custom and probably have enough left over for new bindings... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zone Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Nothing against EC as a style...but I think the point about board cost and versatility is pretty valid... for $900 you can have anything you want made custom and probably have enough left over for new bindings... I am not sure cost and versatility point is valid. A Prior board is 530 to 699 Euros (vs 650 for the Swoard) and not much more customisation. A Coiler would be cheaper but I would have to wait til at least next year. In any case, too much money for this snowboarder. However the point of US vs. Europe, I truly believe there are people with a chip on their shoulder with this one. Having lived on both continents (not bragging or anything, just an observation), I think there is something there. Now of the internet age, I am not sure why such a big deal about countries and continents, especially since we are such a small community that generally transcend borders. Peace!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinecure Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Seems to me we're talking about a review of a snowboard here, not a personal attack on the makers/riders of that board. I know we all take this stuff very personally, and get pretty attached to the stuff we choose to buy/ride, but it seems to me that you are taking this a bit too personally. If it were someone other than Phil, I might feel differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fleaman Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Seems to me we're talking about a review of a snowboard here, not a personal attack on the makers/riders of that board. I know we all take this stuff very personally, and get pretty attached to the stuff we choose to buy/ride, but it seems to me that you are taking this a bit too personally. If it were someone other than Phil, I might feel differently. FYI, Nils is highly involved in promoting Swoard snowboards. I love watching the EC style and enjoy trying to emulate EC turns. I also enjoy Hip to Hip riding. You have to change it up while riding different terrain. You cant sustain EC on flatter sufaces, but Hip to Hip works fine. When it gets steep, throw in a few EC's because you aren't happy unless your helmet is filled with snow! I think it is one thing that the general public associates with hardbooting. "IF you ride hard plates, you can lay out turns." If you look at most of the hardbooting websites you will probably see a picture of a rider doing a EC turn. If it is so wrong, why does anybody do it at all, or even promote it by making it a harbooting Icon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Although I was not the culprit in question, I can't help feeling like I was being addressed indirectly here. Speaking for myself, the way the Philosophy and Technique sections of extremecarving.com speak in rigid, absolute terms and take a fundamentalist tone turns me off. It says things like this is correct, and that is incorrect. This is fun, that is unfun. You must set up your bindings like this and not like that. One irony is that the Rotation page is in direct contradiction to the Gesture Purity page - rotation is not necessary, and imo, wasted motion. Notice I said "not necessary", not "incorrect". You can rotate to your heart's content if you like it. Also, as someone who was promoting the advancement of alpine technique in the mid and late nineties, I take offense to the "alpine killed alpine" manifesto, and I sincerely believe it is wholly false. I have never met any of you, but I hope to someday. You seem like good guys overall, and I admire your carving style for what it is. I'd love to see it up close, and especially here on the ice-coast. Your efforts to get more people into alpine are to be congratulated. But when you present yourselves like this, and you tell other expert carvers that what they're doing is incorrect, you open yourself up to this kind of response. I'll admit there was a time when I took a more black and white approach to technique, but I have moved on from there. I wish you guys would too. After all, we're all on the same team. Cheers, -Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djlepper Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 I don't understand people that bash some product because it is expensive? I don't see people complaining about how expensive ie. mercedes or bmw get. Are there better cars for less money??.... I'm pretty sure, but if someone feels that they can afford it and it fits their needs, why brag about it? Nobody complains how expensive Virus boards are - and Swoards are made in the very same factory. All of us own different boards that have different application, some are more expensive than others, so I dont see why some ppl feel so strong about this particular board. Sinecure, why shouldn't Nils take it personally - he "makes" and sells the boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Ong Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 "OK, I've ridden a sword. It's a mediocore board at best. It works well for what it is designed to do, but out side that relm it sucks. There are plenty of boards out there that will ride great in a varity of conditioins and turn shapes, and lay out carves. $900 bucks can get you a totally custom ride that will be exactly what you want, not just a EC machine with a worthless nose profile." (philfell, topic about wide boards)I think it's the tone that is the problem, you can feel the hatred it's so thick. Here's how a respectful review with a differing opinion might read. I've ridden a swoard, to be fair only for a limited amount of time so take this for what it's worth. This thing turns pretty good and seems to hold the edge very well when extremely inclinated . The width is probably useful if you like to venture out of the groomed . Definitely not the tool for running gates though. The price is kinda high, the exchange rate likely has a lot to do with that. You can get a custom deck that will do pretty much what this board does for a lot less money and btw the nose is a bit too pointy for me. It's easy to be rude to somebody you won't have to deal with in the little racing world you inhabit. You think if the board in question was anything else (i.e. Donek, Coiler,F2)the tone would be the same ? At least he admitted that the board does what it's claimed to do (EC) . Not to say that this is the only board that will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tufty Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 for $900 you can have anything you want made custom and probably have enough left over for new bindings... I think you're losing out on the € -> $ conversion there, over here the Swoards are only marginally more expensive than a 'stock' major manufacturer's alpine board - hell, it's only the price of an upper-range burton freeride board, for gh0d's sake. As for the style - I love looking at it, it looks like a load of fun. Sadly, when I ride, if I get that close to the snow I'm in the process of crashing :) Nils, if you're heading up the Val d'Arly any time, drop me a line. Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamran Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 I think it's the tone that is the problem, Couldn't agree with you more. Although one should be aware of the fact that people come and write here with different backgrounds, education level and writing skills. So not every text is deliberately written as negative or even as rude as it may appear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdboytyler Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Yeah, the Utah crew seems a little bit anti-EC. When I first read Bordy’s review of the Swoard and he said it felt comparable to some freestyle/freeride boards, I thought he was just biased against the Swoard. But then, I got to ride a Swoard and in bumpy snow, it did feel more like a freestyle board. Maybe because of the soft flex. The Swoard did feel slower for edge to edge transitions, because of the wider waist. And at higher speeds, the Swoard didn’t feel as stable as my Donek FC2 or Oxygen Proton GS. Just as Bordy stated in his review. For all around riding, I prefer the Donek. But for laid out carves, the Swoard is far and away the best board I’ve ridden. For fully laid out carves, you don’t need to be going at mach speed. If the dollar was stronger vs the Euro, I would add a Swoard to my quiver. All in all, I wouldn’t call Bordy’s and Phil Fell’s comments as flaming, but honest criticism. In the end Patrice and Jacques look a hell of lot better in their videos vs the Utah crew’s attempt at EC. P&J put out a strong message. If you want to ride like them, then you should ride the SAME board, use the same stance settings, and use similar bindings/boots. It’s a hell of a marketing tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Ong Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 O.K how about this: Perhaps the perceived attitude, intended or not stems from the fact that the swoard is not part of the racing clique Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 "OK, I've ridden a sword. It's a mediocore board at best. It works well for what it is designed to do, but out side that relm it sucks. There are plenty of boards out there that will ride great in a varity of conditioins and turn shapes, and lay out carves. $900 bucks can get you a totally custom ride that will be exactly what you want, not just a EC machine with a worthless nose profile." (philfell, topic about wide boards)Behind the swoard board attack, is the whole EC concept ( which is not just about laying down turns) attacked and pointed as bad...We can understand that some dont feel its nice or usefull, and don't wish to ride into that direction.. but is is worth so much anger...? Nils What I see here is simply a review,albeit a very blunt one, of a particular product...ONE riders opinion. I personally have seen similar comments from riders posting on gear reviews here in Bomber. Some of the comments directed at product beloved by many. Simply THAT user's experience. Take it for what it's worth! I have yet to ride a Swoard - would love to try one! Would definitely demo before plunking down serious $ for a stick too! Also, I don't see an attack on EC in this particular instance. I, like many others, admire the abilities of the EC crew and their fun approach to hardbooting. Many on this forum swear by the product and strive to emulate that particular type of turn - with some great success from what I've seen. For some it is an end goal in itself. If that's your motivation - go for it! Nothing wrong with it. Some have different goals in their quest for what they feel is optimum riding for them, be it race course, bumps, off-piste, steeps, you name it. More often I have seen comments ON THIS FORUM about the positive aspects of the EC and how they would like to be able to "do that!" Stokes a lot of folks about hardboot snowbaording - which can only be GOOD. For me it's really strange that some feel that there is an actual "hatred" of the Swoard or the EC concept - I just don't see it. Whatever your tool(s) of choice is/are and your approach to riding those tools - do it! OK, the guitar is coming out and I feel kumbayah coming on here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 nils...just curiuos but what prompted you to bring this up? that review is months old...and I havent seen any flamewars about EC for a while. so...in essence, isn't it you who is causing trouble now? :) also, in all honesty...I gotta admit that I cringe when "EC" guys talk about their style or others...especially a few of the west coast US guys. They truly do think "their turns are the best" and so far every single vid and pic Ive seen has been rudimentary at best and ugly at worst. The _only_ person Ive seen pics and footage of that really really rocks the style correctly besides P&J is RCrobar. so...anyway...from my perpective it's arrogance and snobbery on both sides. me? couldnt care less, think EC looks bitchin on heelside turns, ugly on toeside, and that Ive seen quite a few "bomber" style riders look ****in awesome all around. Jack. Bryan, Timinor, Fin, Kirk^^^^ (RIPS the turns!)...the list goes on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 What you need is a person..say like this Shred Gruumer fella,, you give him a board..A new one..bout 175 lets say. And he will ride it ..and truely give you a real review ..probably a real good one! Thats what I would do! He's a real stand out guy ,,email I think he is headed on some trips where he could really use a good board to ride..since he doesn't have any anymore. What are you waiting for ..one post from Shred could clean up a years worth of bad press Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 LOL! shred, do you need to borrow a board? hit up the gear vacuum! Im sure he has somethin you could cruise around on :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 So here I sit in Zurich after spending ten days in the home of the swoard and acroos this thread I stumble. I have asked all the euros I have met what they think of the Swoard and I wish I could say it was good but it was not. Also We at hardbooter had a swoard for the beginng of the year and we all put a bunch of time in on one to "give it another try" The story remains the same. Ride what you would like to ride. Heck there are some great board by Swiss guys like the Oxess and Kessler there national teams are crushing it on. Also the new seceret kesslers noses look like tails much like the Swoard only the camber profile is correct and the nose still works well. I too wonder why Nils posted this thread. I thought we covered this.His product has good and bad points. If he thinks it is better then it is great, Why cant other riders find it less apealing (sorry there are no question marks on this european key board just stuff like this öàä€..) Perhaps the product still needs more work. I hope the swoard guys make the best product they can and that lots of people are stoked about riding it. But come on do not knock a guy who is sharing a profesonal opinion about stuff. James Ong, I really hope your much nicer then you come across online. right now Phil is driving back to Nendaz to coach atheletes in the world cup after traveling with 10 athletes over a 5 race tour here in Europe. While you bad mouth him and his job he is helping people ride better around the world How is it that you feel belittling him and his opinion is cool, I thought you loved to ride... We at hardbooter have said over and over that we dont hate the swoard we just wished it worked better. We have ridden 23+cm boards and know what they can do. If the board said Donek Coilier or Proior on it we whould still give it a fair shake down and rate it on performance. The only beef we have ever had with the Swoard guys is when the claimed they invented the linked layed out turn and that you have to ride the gear and technique the do to get the smae result... That is just not true Everyrider has their own style and any one can link layed out turns on any gear with practice. Some gear will work better then others for some people it is just that simple. And if they think Alpine racing and race board killed carving like the list in their manifesto then great. Why is it so evil to feel different. I think Racing fuels the sport doesn,t mean I am right and they are wrong just mean we have diferent opions. No big deal.. Our newest video has swoard footage in it... I still think the board could ride better. I hope the swoard guys product sells and they help the sport grow. I know guys who ride Kesslers that are around 21 wide and EC the heck out of them. But their boards ride great at speed and dont bounce like the swoard stuff, to me that says wide board could be better. Go check out what Matt Horne rides for a width, Or what Bruce Vassera likes to free ride on Vs what Fin does. You guys all respect them and they like different gear why cant we.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tahoetrencher Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Thanks Bordy, How can any disagree with that? Either you're comfortable at speed...or you're not. Either you like to drag your d*ck in the dust...or you don't. Today was thigh deep in the trees at the Heave and I broke my original Madd in a chute. Either I'll have a wake...or I won't. Still looking for the smiley with the big tears... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fred Goober Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 I agree this Shred Charecter seem to be of reputabutile charecterature! That feller is got a good I deer! I would sent him that Shred feller a NEW Swoard bout mmm from der sounds of it he need a 180 now.. He could give er a run and seems to me he would prunuciate a good review, seems to be chicken feed! to undone whats done.. Id do it,,what you waitin fur!! Fred said Shed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jschal01 Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Nils, Your passion and enthusiasm for the sport as a whole are always clear. However, the simple timing of this post is puzzling and seems like astroturfing to me -- it certainly has us talking about the Swoard and EC again. I'm not sure if there's been a single direct post on here from, say, Kessler or Prior in the last year? My advice would be to let the gear and technique speak for themselves and,to the extent that people write reviews suggesting that the gear or technique may have some limitations, either take it to heart or be happy staying focused on your own thing. FWIW, the reviews that I've seen have made it sound, to me, like Swoards are fun boards that would be really nice to ride if I lived in a better snow area and were into laid-out carving. So, what is the problem, isn't that what you're into? If you want the board to be more versatile than that, then even Bordy's response just now gives you a lot of valuable feedback. If you really do want constructive input from the forum, perhaps you could be humble rather than defensive and state concisely what you want the board to be good at other than laid-out carving on good snow, and then ask for rider input on ways you can improve the product starting with what you have now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Dold Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 James Ong: You are 100% correct. Nailed it right on the head. Sometimes people say things on the internet that they (usually) know better than to say in person and wonder why negative reactions result. Usually these are people who are actually very nice in person, but something happens when there is the internet buffer there. If people thought for just a minute or two about what they are saying and how they are saying it before firing off a message, the overall mood here would improve dramatically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Ong Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 .The only beef we have ever had with the Swoard guys is when the claimed they invented the linked layed out turn and that you have to ride the gear and technique the do to get the smae result... That is just not true Everyrider has their own style and any one can link layed out turns on any gear with practice. Some gear will work better then others for some people it is just that simple. I'll have to concede that one to you Bordy, the EC boys did come off too strong and maybe a little bit arrogant on that point. But come on do not knock a guy who is sharing a profesonal opinion about stuff. Professional opinions are always appreciated,but when a person uses works like mediocre , sucks and worthless to review a board it sounds well... unprofessional . I realise that this is how a person might truly feel about a product and is entitled to his/ her opinion. In return you will have to accept that people who do not agree with you night not be polite either and use the same words to describe the review ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Vu Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Having lived on both side of the ponds, may I say that the EC message was lost in translation? In Europe, people are a lot more direct (especially in the latin world) and to be politically correct is simply not mandatory. For example, James pointed out the "EC boys did come off too strong and maybe a little bit arrogant on that point". James may be right but only from the U.S perspective. I don't know too many Euro carving web sites that were "shocked" by the EC statements. Patrice and Nils were at SES 2004. Has anyone who talked to them felt that the were one bit "arrogant"? One may find instead that they were quite humble folks who shared their passion about carving without any restrictions. One irony is that the Rotation page is in direct contradiction to the Gesture Purity page - rotation is not necessary, and imo, wasted motion. Notice I said "not necessary", not "incorrect". You can rotate to your heart's content if you like it. Jack, when you say "wasted motion" don't think it strongly implies that it is "wrong" which would put you on the same rigid stand points as the EC guys,no ? :rolleyes: How about "unecessary motion"? Also, as someone who was promoting the advancement of alpine technique in the mid and late nineties, I take offense to the "alpine killed alpine" manifesto, and I sincerely believe it is wholly false. I think it was Kipstar who pointed out that in the windsurfing industry, the boards went so narrow (to conform with racing in high winds) that it almost killed the industry. Maybe the J&P had a point here. The only beef we have ever had with the Swoard guys is when the claimed they invented the linked layed out turn and that you have to ride the gear and technique the do to get the smae result... That is just not true Everyrider has their own style and any one can link layed out turns on any gear with practice. Some gear will work better then others for some people it is just that simple. Bordy, I can't agree with you more. You can do linked layed turns with any boards, from freestyle to skwal. But on the same token, one can join a tennis tournament with a wood racket or doing forward loops with a windsurfing speed board (Laird Hamilton) on flat water and so on....Oh wait, I have my own story too. When I was a teenager (a very VERY loooong time ago :o ), I used to mountain bike in the woods with my racing bike. Not ideal... If J&P did not "invent" it(another statement lost in translation), then they have mastered this technique with great fluidity. I'm afraid to say that your video proved just that: they are the best in linking laydown turns(oh, and Rob Crobar too <-- who's that guy anyway!?!? :rolleyes: ). Cheers, Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baka Dasai Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 James Ong: You are 100% correct. Nailed it right on the head. Sometimes people say things on the internet that they (usually) know better than to say in person and wonder why negative reactions result. There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying things on the internet that you wouldn't say in person. They're different mediums, and so you should expect the communication styles and the etiquette to differ. My analysis of this ridiculous argument is that: 1. The EC guys put up a website with a bunch of claims that implicitly criticised the racing fraternity. 2. The racing fraternity respond with occasional potshots at the EC guys. 3. Everybody stirs the pot a bit. 4. The EC guys (or at least Nils) complain about the venom directed at them. Where's the problem? This is what the internet is for - people arguing about esoteric 5hit like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipstar Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Oh yes! The sweet sound of my own name, heard all the way here in Korea :-) Indeed, narrow windsurfers basically reduced the range of winds for racing (slalom and course) from non planing, to about 15-20 knots minimum with boards that had to be water started (a fairly advanced technique) which went like the clappers but were not versatile; from the 80s when the boards were selling about 1m+ units a year, the worldwide volume had dropped to somewhere under 100k by late 90s. A genius called Svein Rasmussen with the co-inventor of windsurfing Jim Drake and his young designer Tiesda Yu from Cambodia have revolutionised the sport by making popular the wide board which is a full 1m wide. Suddenly you can plane (and speed past any of the old boards in less than about 20 knots) without being an expert. Suddenly, you can plane in less than 1/2 the wind you needed before. As someone that gave up on snowboarding for about 8 years since I moved to Asia, I was shocked at how much it had died when I went back to Tahoe last year for the first time..... common to ride and see only 1 or 2 hardbooters on Squaw?! What?! I remember seeing lots more than that 10 years ago. Over here in Korea it is more like how it was; I'd say mid week it is about 20% hardbooters on the trails, and of course none in the pipe. Why don't we see many beginners getting into alpine? Why is that? I would guess: - the focus is on perfect turns, no wasted motion, the right way to race; what happened to just cruising around? In fact the benefit of all of us getting so much better is what we do now is so alien to the rest of the jibbers that it isn't even looking like the same sport - the super narrow boards; IMHO the technique used to ride them looks ugly, and the boards themselves are in the same sort of narrow slot as windsurfers were 6 years ago; the narrowness means they don't ride powder, bumps, slush etc anymore. My nitro scorpion rides everything, I don't want to travel with 3 boards; but with alpine how it has become at least in some parts it seems like you need tons of gear. I live in a 3rd world country where NONE of this is available; have you any idea how much money I give up to ride? I can handle buying a board and a set of bindings, but not multiple ones. Yet ask across the forum and I'd guess most of the riders here have multiple sets - the lack of availablilibity; forums like this one (and star-board.com for windsurfing) are helping; but I see a pretty clear set of instructions on the EC site (the technique is not really my thing to be honest)and pretty decent tecnhnique stuff here on this site (if a bit techical for say, my girlfriend).... but what about the gear; slowly getting back in there but all the 2nd hand trade and direct internet trade is knifing dealers in the back unless it is a bricks and motar model, how can a store like Reno Mtn Sport compete against some one man guy importing and selling cheaply on order? That is problematic to fix; if you choose distribution prices go up, and otherwise we are where we are.... I don't think the racing is a bad thing; far from it I think all efforts need to be made to remain olympic and racing is what kids get into when at school. Racing didn't cause the super narrow boards and it isn't killing the sport...\ But the video you hardbooter guys came out with...'it can't be done it can't be done' - if you acted like that in Thailand you would get yourselves into trouble; the itnernet is kind of unforgiving, and while the EC preaching is kind of arrogant, your response to it was just as bad! For anyone keen to see EC done well, I can attest James Ong and Rob on Mt Rose are laying it done on par with the swiss guys, or close to it. Not my thing, but I can see how you need a wide board for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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