Flaming EC> will it ever end?

[nils]

timing of my post: I accept the critic, but is it ever a good time for posting? I just ran across the Mike5000 question, and saw the answer and i had to say the answer made me feel sad, thus my need for raising my thoughts out.

Fact that i'm also involved in swoard: its in my signature indeed: i work for swoard and am 33% involved in the company, just like J and P. I'm talking not on behalf of the company, but with the backup of the two others... (read: they approved but resisted the urge to answer to that "review").

Answer to jack: Jack, i understand your critic against the way things are presented on the EC page, the philosophy and the manifesto. I also agree when you say it can sound outrageous and excessive ( alpine killed alpine etc..). We already explained why it was written in that way ( translated from french, without subtilities etc..): its a manifesto, and as such ( see for example the interesting "futurist manifesto " written around 1909 by the italian futuristic movement ( marinetti), pretends that the past has to be erased somehow, and new foundations have to be set. ( tabula rasa syndrome, which is always paper stuff, reality is never black or white).

Back when it was written now 4 years ago: the idea behind was to shake the tree, and show strongly what had to be done to stop the dying of alpine as we saw it back then. It HAD to be written the way it was, and since it was aimed at narrow race boards that took down the carving world, might have lead to hurt feelings of racers, and people that were in the core of riding narrow boards for racing, or that were using race board for freecarving. It was not the goal of the manifesto to hurt the racing world ( that was actually all there was left of alpine almost), nor pretend racing was wrong, evil or anything like it.

Take it as a manifesto intended to make people outside of the racing world think that they can go out, freecarve on easier boards, and still rip and have fun ( but not win races ). The reaction, and the fact that we see so many people trying to learn something different, showed there was a need for something like it. I'm sure you can also bring people to carving from the race point of view, and most teens i see on carving decks are using race gear, and train hard in gates, which is great. We might have presented the technique a bit like something good against something bad, which I recon was a mistake, because a quiver of technique, like settings, is something personnal, and also there is not a single truth in riding ( truth lies in gliding on snow). Mea culpa.

One day we will rewrite the manifesto thing into a less polemical way, its a matter of time, and we are out of it at the time...It will wait!

Phil and bordy:

I will not rewrite the history, but what is the point of making a video trying to prove you can EC on any board , even a PJ? result is not clear since the video showed no real EC, but the written statements was directly aimed at us. Remember we never pretended that only our board could do EC: we just said it is easier with it, and that it is the most efficient tool for it. I did EC turns on a hot blast 18.5cm ( avatar pic shows it) and its possible, but way trickier, this is all we say.

Mediocre board? worthless nose profile? Have we ever written kind words like this to describe a board? I'm sure phil is a great board designer too, but please choose words differently and more professionnaly since you claim the professionnal tag. James rewrote a much nicer (thus a bit sarcastic) way of saying the same thing you did.

We produce and sell ( yes for money) a board that claims of beeing a EC tool, and we prove that it works for the task. Many many riders ( owners of the board or people that tried it with the proper size/flew) says it is also versatile, which is also something we claim. Yes it is a bad board for winning races, and we have feedback from pro racers and boardercrossers that is very good ( they will not use it for racing of course). We had a few riders of the Dutch race team try it, and they said they would like the same shape with a few cm less waist. They did like the nose worthless profile! We are not pretending the product is perfect, but that it is the best we could make for the job.

I agree, there is also a thin line between writing in a forum with a board manufacturer hat, and a snowboard enthousiast / EC promoter hat on the other side, and that the line shall be always clear when writing in a forum. This is why I usually never critize products of other brands or compare things (that usually cannot be compared because too different)...Swoard and EC sites and history have been created by the same time almost, and that also explains why the line is so thin between wearing those two hats... I'll try to remember that and not write anymore when it comes to EC/Swoard related questions on here... even if its hard to read free attacks that have no real objective backup...

See ya in other topics!

Nils

futurist manifesto

[Guest jschal01]

Nils,

That's a very long reply but does not seem to really focus on the board. To focus one the actual board, let me ask, are they all still squaretails? Why not at least a squash tail if you want a versatile board?

[Jack M]

Having lived on both side of the ponds, may I say that the EC message was lost in translation? In Europe, people are a lot more direct (especially in the latin world) and to be politically correct is simply not mandatory.

I certainly believe this. Our elderly neighbor across the street is Austrian. She is very direct and abrasive with her opinions. In general she means well, I guess, but the fact that she is European does not excuse her and does not change the fact that the whole neighborhood can't wait for her to have to vacate her home.

The point is, such a direct, hard-line approach is not well received here. It puts people off and I think it invites a negative reaction, such as Phil's. Personally I would like to think if I were reviewing the Swoard I would be more diplomatic than that, but I can understand how those words came out.

Jack, when you say "wasted motion" don't think it strongly implies that it is "wrong" which would put you on the same rigid stand points as the EC guys,no ? :rolleyes: How about "unecessary motion"?

Perhaps. But I made two comments about rotation - 1, it is unnecessary. Fact. 2 - imo, it is wasted motion. Opinion. Note the "imo".

<b>Nils,</b> I appreciate your letter above very much. Thank you. Hope to ride with you guys someday. That opening shot of Zinal in Stoked is burnt into my brain. I <i>will</i> have my way with that trail someday.

[Steve Dold]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying things on the internet that you wouldn't say in person.

Since words typed on the internet are permanent and public, I would think the opposite.

[Daneille]

It seems odd to me that people can be so disagreeable and vehemenant about style. The opinion of the person riding the board and making the turns is the one that matters. If you are having a blast does it matter what type turns they are or what they are being done on? There are a lot of things that I think are ugly, that just means I don't want to do it, not that someone else shouldn't and if they're having fun, cool. Let's ride!

Daneille

[Jon Dahl]

I love watching the EC style, and no I can't lay 'em down like that every time. It's inspiring to see it done. Ridden the Swoard at SES '04, I didn't like the way it felt, too damp, maybe even dead underfoot. That is probably needed for the lay out turns though, so that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I do like narrow race boards, and like some snap in my boards, so it may be MY preference doesn't swing that way. Keep up the good work, Nils, the community needs it.

[Skully]

Since we're talking about EC and Swoards, I'll chime in, but change the topic a little.

Who's seen / ridden the new Swoards being made in the Virus factory?

Any difference in ride characteristics, etc?

Nils, Please chime in if you would like, even though you said you wouldn't.

Anyone else?

[Guest Mikef5000]

Nils, is correct, This topic was brought up very recently in my thread.

I mentioned wanting a wider board... Something to maybe lay some EC's on.... And I also mentioned that I was looking at the Swoard.

I have been in forums long enough to know to take reviews with a large grain of salt.

There are alot of "not-so-great" reviews floating around about the swoard, but there are also alot of pictures and video's floating around... and they certainly show that this board can do what it's made for... and it does it very well!

I think it is perfectly acceptable the way they have instructions on the EC website, since the website is mainly for teaching how to EC. Sure you can do it other ways, but your on their website, were they are teaching you Their way of doing it.

I'd own a Swoard right now if I had the money... Although it would not be my only board... It would be my board for EC... which is what it's made for and does best.

[kamran]

Kipstar: But the video you hardbooter guys came out with...'it can't be done it can't be done' - if you acted like that in Thailand you would get yourselves into trouble; the itnernet is kind of unforgiving, and while the EC preaching is kind of arrogant, your response to it was just as bad!

That video showed at least hardbooter's perception of a 'good and linked EC turn'.

[Sean]

I think I have the solution to all this consternation:

Step one: turn right

Step two: turn left

Step three: repeat :p

[Gleb]

Its great to see that Nils has faith in the product and it defintly seems like something Id love to do. It seems like we can EC at some of the bigger resorts like Sunday river, which is only 3 hours away. I totally understand why Nils could get upset because if someone is attacking the product he pours his heart into, its also a person attack.

I think the EC website is defintly helping plate riding altogether. It was one of the things that pushed me over the edge to go out and buy my board on ebay. Its just mesmerizing to watch and I hope to be able to do that in the near future.

Lastly, it seems like people have a problem that the board is only really good for EC which is fine. They have stunt airplanes for the purpose of stunts and a 747 to carry people. You don't criticize the 747 for not being able to do barrel rolls quickly enough and the stunt plane for its small load capacity:smashfrea

[bobdea]

horse that you guys beat the hell out of a long time ago

as for the swoard, I would fear that shallow nose in the wrong conditions and for allot of people since its so radically different than your average alpine ride many of them are just plain not going to like it

for what I want to do one of those boards is just plain not suitable

[James Ong]

horse that you guys beat the hell out of a long time ago

It wouldn't be the same without the yearly EC fracas

[Gleb]

bob is right

[JohnO'Brien]

Alpine snowboarding is a small enough community as it is. If anything, we should be lending off of the whole alpine community and build strength and comraderie. This forum should not promote an us agianst them relationship. I have been hardbooting for over 15 years and can not believe the improvement in my snowboarding since I discovered Bomber and Extreme Carving site. I have nothing but thank you's to say to the many people that have assisted me either by ansering my questions or by reading thier thoughts.

I for one am an import from europe and the massive generalizations I have read about europeans on this thread is quite disturbing, just think about where most of your families came from!

We all share one thing in common and that is the rush of carving turns down frozen slopes and however we choose to explain our technique will always provide good discussion and further our sport.

By no means should we not be critical of a product or technique as that is the way the sport progresses, but in doing so we need to communicate our thoughts with the same respect as if you were facing the other person and having a conversation. These forums irk the hell out of me when someone uses the annonimity of the internet to be brash and inconsiderate.

[Gleb]

john is also right

I'm not in particularly a bush hater but i think I'll through this one in here for a kick:

It came up under "get along" on google images:eek:

[Zone]

Removed. Flame flame and more flame. No useful function.

[Chris Houghton]

Unfortunately, for some, time not on the hill riding is time at the keyboard, and it's soooooooo tempting to start a flame war when you're bored. In general, people post much differently than they talk - after all, they don't even use their real name, so they are free to be jerks whenever they please.

Phils' review was blunt, but so what? Nils did not feel the need to respond, and after all they are selling a LOT of swoards, so why even stoop to the bomberonline level, and start slinging mud? The EC guys deserve a lot of credit.

[Bobby Buggs]

All I can say, That Sword seems to work on their feet when the camera is rolling.

To me the best riders have a Blend of many styles.

[tahoetrencher]

Amen Chris,

Weekend warriors in cubicle cages...

PS, thanks for the tip on the Wild Duck- it arrived yesterday. Alas, a day too late.

[Rob Stevens]

My current favourite ride is an L.G. 65 cm keyboard, with carpal-tunnel cant.

It kills on the boilerplate of my desktop.

As for EC vs Alpine, I've NEVER gone out on hardboots without doing both. Usually only a few turns apart from each other. The best riders can do it all.

E.C. and racers: Join together in flaming my thread on noboarding.

I'm sure you can all agree on how it's nothing new (except for the no rope part)

To EC's credit, Nils and Patrice did get it. I'm bummed I didn't get to take Patrice snowmobiling last year to turn him on properly and Nils, you seem like one of the most open-minded people I've ever met in one of these forums.

Rob / Keyboarder

[kipstar]

But Rob, your LG is only 65cm. That means it is junk.

You need to get a custom Samsung 66cm.

The 65cm is the reason people are not using keyboards anymore.

Look when you watch TV. How many people are using a keyboard? Or driving? Or eating cakes? Or even when sleeping?

If we brought back the excitement of a 66cm centermeter keyboard, this will save alpine keyboarding.

That's what I am promoting. For the first time. Ever. Completely linked keyboarding.

You can find more at my website www.extremekeyboarder.com.sluts

[B18C1]

Lol.. I actually clicked on that link thinking it would work...

[philfell]

Well it's taken some time for me to see this and since it was started by a quote from me I feel I should respond. This quote was taken from another thread on Bomber. I'm very surprised that Nils didn't put a link to the thread where it was taken from. If someone with some free time could post the link, it would be cool. I'm stupid with computers and it would probably take me a while to figure it out.

Anyway the thread the quote was taken from was started by a guy asking questions about a future board purchase. I can't remember specifics, but he was concerned about price and mentioned that he wanted to learn how to lay out carves, but also wanted a board he could enjoy everyday. He was considering a Sword and a few other boards. Someone replied that they have NOT ridden a Sword but have heard they aren't all they are cracked up to be. Another person responed by basically saying don't beleive everything you hear. So I responded by saying that I have ridden a Sword.......... You read the quote. I don't find it negative. The word medicore is an adjative decribing the board, saying that it is OK, not top shelf, but not bottom of the barrel. For exact definition look it up if you don't already know. I said it has a worthless nose profile, in my opinion it does. If you go back to the original thread, someone ask me directly about why I feel this way, and I responded that I would go in to detail, but I'm not getting paid for my design ideas so I wish to keep them to myself. If you don't like this answer that's cool use your own judgment.

I suggest re-reading the whole thread again. This wasn't an "attack" on EC it was honest feedback to someone who requested it. I wasn't starting an EC bashing, I was answering a question to the best of my ability. Nils you are really overly sensitive. Please quite being silly and overly sensitive your attempt at trying to make me into an EC villian by taking things completely out of context is lame. If I had the chance to ride with you and the rest of the EC crew I would certainly do so. I would also tell you to your face the limitations of your product, it's feedback take it or leave it. Honestly I thought what I said in the quote was on the positive side, in the overall content of the thread. I called your board an EC machine. To me this says it does what it's designed to do well, but the OP wanted a board with some versitility. The 900 price quote I got from someone earlier in the same thread, I honestly don't know how much they cost.

[philfell]

Here is a link to the original thread: http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=8890 read the entire thread and I think you will see that my post is far from abusive to the EC guys.