Jack M Posted August 30 Report Share Posted August 30 On 8/29/2024 at 3:33 PM, Jack M said: I'm reminded of a meme I saw recently - If you're wondering why Gen-X is crabby, it's because we had to replace our record collection with a tape collection that we had to replace with a CD collection that we had to replace with an MP3 collection, and now we have to pay for a subscription to listen to music. 22 hours ago, SunSurfer said: Only if you were foolish enough to get rid of your CDs. Rip your CDs to FLAC or WAV format files on a laptop or mobile phone, run Foobar 2000 or a some other FLAC player, connect to a DAC ( and there are plenty of inexpensive high performing ones out there), and then to your old stereo amp. Now sit back and enjoy a level of detail you never knew the CDs held, and (almost) no clicks, pops or skips from needles in grooves or scratches on your CDs. I'm using a Topping D10 DAC with a Technics amp I bought in 1982 to do exactly that. The DAC will also make the most of any streamed music files as well. How is ripping a CD going to extract more detail from it? AFAIK the only way to get beyond CD quality is with special discs and players like SACD or Blu Ray, or with a subscription to a high-res service like Qobuz, Tidal, Apple Music, Amazon Prime Music, Deezer, etc if you have a system that can play it in full high-res and not just CD quality. Although last I knew there is some controversy over Tidal's format. Edit - looks like as of just about a month ago they are switching to FLAC and Dolby Atmos. Hmm! I still have my ~100 or so CDs in a case but I haven't opened it in about 20 years since I ripped them all to Apple lossless. But I don't even listen to those files anymore. The convenience and variety of Spotify has spoiled me. It's just so overwhelmingly convenient for playing what you want, creating playlists, and discovering new music. It's a revelation, really. And then my kids are on it too because of the social aspect, so having a family plan is a no-brainer. I also have a 1 year subscription to Qobuz and a decent system for when I want to listen critically but I think I won't renew it. I've realized I only appreciate high-res when I know a song intimately. Like knowing how long the reverb decay should be on Bernard Purdie's rim shots in Babylon Sisters. I should just buy my favorites from hdtracks.com. And as soon as I do anything other than listen with undivided attention, I'm not hearing the high-res anymore. Spotify sure is taking it's sweet-ass time releasing their HiFi service. Although it sounds like it will "only" be CD quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVR Posted August 30 Report Share Posted August 30 3 hours ago, Jack M said: How is ripping a CD going to extract more detail from it? Haven't you ever watched the "cop" or "fed" in the movies take the video of the plate on the car visible from a distance of 600 feet and "clean" it to be perfectly readable like it was videoed with an 8k camera zoomed in on the plate? Surely, you're not saying that isn't real.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted August 30 Author Report Share Posted August 30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortcutToMoncton Posted August 30 Report Share Posted August 30 Let’s be perfectly honest here: if you’re old enough to be an alpine snowboarder, there’s zero chance your ears work well enough to hear the difference anyway. That won’t stop anyone from pouring money into fancy equipment (as I have) and thinking it really makes a difference, though!! 1 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted August 30 Report Share Posted August 30 (edited) @Jack M the difference is in how the data is read and translated into an analogue signal. A CD transport system is subject a range of data read issues that a hard drive with RAM buffering is not. I have back to back played a CD through a CD player then amp & speakers, vs data losslessly ripped to music server to DAC then same amp and speakers and the difference is clearly audible, even to my 65 year old ears, and even to my wife's ears. And we all know how hard to convince wives are about the effect of any sound system component. DACs come at a whole range of prices, including eye watering audiophile levels. But I spent less than NZ$200 on mine to get pretty much perfect data reads, hiss crackle pop free sound, and clearer instrument separation in orchestral music than I had ever heard outside of a concert hall. Currently using an old Mac laptop as my server, but any quiet computer (low/no fan noise) will do. Laptops are best because a battery power supply has no potential for AC hum. I was as cynical as anyone about the potential for improvements in the sound before I tried it. As a doctor I am more aware than many people of the loss of upper frequencies in our hearing as we age. Literally, it was like hearing some familiar pieces as if they were new. The background detail that I became aware of was stunning. Relating my experience as someone who is not trying to sell you something to fill my wallet. The vinyl vs digital, CD player vs server/DAC online debate is a rabbit hole of epic proportions. A link to a review site that has reviewed by a consistent process a wide range of DACs at all price levels for the Topping D10 that I use. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-d10s-usb-dac-and-bridge-review.14859/ Edited August 30 by SunSurfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortcutToMoncton Posted August 31 Report Share Posted August 31 (edited) Being honest — what you’re saying mostly does not quite pass the smell test. Any really nice CD player should have a high-quality DAC that would rival modern equipment…some CD players like mine can be used as modern DAC transports for digital front ends and still sound incredible. There’s no sound degradation caused by CD buffering any more than caused by the mediocre hard drive, USB ports and electrical interference of a laptop. You’d need super high-quality multi-thousand $$ speakers and a perfect listening environment to hear any meaningful difference between a redbook CD and hi res digital files. The more likely scenario is that the music files are mastered slightly differently and that’s what you’re hearing. Audio quality has an insane placebo effect. Read up on MQA files, which was a recent audio compression format that gained an insane amount of hype just before the pandemic and briefly took over the industry. Everyone and their dog was told that MQA sounded so much better and almost everyone bought it. The professional and online reviews extolling the amazing sound difference were everywhere. Eventually people started figuring out it was all an industry moneymaking scam and everything fell apart over the past couple years. The folks at Audioscience do good stuff; they also obsess about meaningless noise thresholds that human ears cannot possibly hear. Don’t expect to hear any actual difference between a great CD player and digital files unless you’ve already spent a few thousand bucks between your amplifier/preamp and speakers. And try taking an online hearing test to find out just how bad your ears are; and another one to determine the differences between hi-res audio quality. But make sure you have fun doing it. it’s such a great hobby! And for the record…..if you want to have fun and enjoy yourself……vinyl still sounds best. Edited August 31 by ShortcutToMoncton 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted August 31 Author Report Share Posted August 31 4 hours ago, SunSurfer said: A CD transport system is subject to a range of data read issues that a hard drive with RAM buffering is not. I have back to back played a CD through a CD player then amp & speakers, vs data losslessly ripped to music server to DAC then same amp and speakers and the difference is clearly audible Interesting! Although not all CD players are created equal. Good thing I ripped everything losslessly. This thread inspired me to finally set up my iMac as a network attached DNLA music server. I found FireStream for that. Simple and works well but it's $30 (one time) after a 7 day trial. I might look for freeware. I have a Marantz receiver which uses the HEOS wireless system. The HEOS app recognized the server right away. I believe the receiver plays directly from the server, not through the phone. Sounds good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted August 31 Author Report Share Posted August 31 50 minutes ago, ShortcutToMoncton said: vinyl still sounds best When I had 26 year old ears and was between jobs I worked for a summer at a HiFi store. We had some serious gear set up for demo. Bryston, Jolida, Magnepan, B&W, Transparent cables (made in Maine!) and more. I forget what we had for turntables because I wasn't interested. But we did some A/B comparisons between vinyl and CD. I and others felt they just sound different, but not better in terms of detail. Vinyl snobs like to say CDs and digital files "click", as if they can hear the sampling rate - BS!! To which I say, vinyl clicks too. Spin a record slowly by hand and that's what you hear. The store owner felt the best sound available at the time was LaserDisc. I think most vinyl snobs prefer it because that's what they grew up on, so it sounds "right". Or they're trying to be pretentious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted August 31 Report Share Posted August 31 When CDs first came out absolutely vinyl sounded better. There were a whole bunch of reasons for that. But now that the medium is mature so long as you have a properly recorded cd and a decent player it’s going to trump vinyl. I will say that most people are very surprised to hear how good vinyl can sound as they haven’t heard it through decent gear. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted August 31 Author Report Share Posted August 31 There's also the quality of the recording and mastering. The store owner kept a copy of Santana Supernatural on hand as an example of terrible engineering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordmetroland Posted August 31 Report Share Posted August 31 The key is listening to music that’s so s****y, the format doesn’t matter. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted August 31 Author Report Share Posted August 31 13 hours ago, Jack M said: This thread inspired me to finally set up my iMac as a network attached DNLA music server. I found FireStream for that. Simple and works well but it's $30 (one time) after a 7 day trial. I might look for freeware. Update - while FireStream is very nice, I'm switching to Plex. It's free, it does the whole DLNA thing and a lot more if you want to dive in. My HEOS app sees it right away, but now I can browse my local music more easily. With FireStream it was just by folder as far as I could tell. With Plex I can browse by artist, album, genre, decade, year, collection, recently added, and folder. Then there is a smartphone app, PlexAmp. It's basically Spotify for your local collection. It's slick but it only plays on your phone or Chromecast devices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortcutToMoncton Posted September 1 Report Share Posted September 1 Yeah, I use Plex/Plexamp. It’s pretty nice. The only downside it that Plexamp plays on your device only; you can cast it to other connected speakers/receivers but you have to do it manually and it depends on your device playing the music and being present on the network. It’s a little annoying that you can’t just continue to play to the entire network directly, like a Sonos. There’s a system called Roon that is pretty nice, has a really cool interface that tells you all about the music you’re playing, and plays everywhere on the network in hi-res. But it’s expensive and can be pretty bandwidth intensive. I do feel the digital realm loses the tactile element. There’s something about taking out a vinyl record or CD that isn’t the same with digital music. But that’s just the old timer in me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st_lupo Posted September 1 Report Share Posted September 1 I would like to take this moment to thank Ministry, Godflesh, The Warlock Pinchers, and every one else who I’ve seen in concert, for making it unappealing to go down that audiophile upgrade rabbit hole. #blessedbythereeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekempmeister Posted September 2 Report Share Posted September 2 I crank it and listen to Enrico Caruso on ceramic, with a cactus needle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted September 2 Author Report Share Posted September 2 On 8/31/2024 at 9:44 PM, ShortcutToMoncton said: Yeah, I use Plex/Plexamp. It’s pretty nice. The only downside it that Plexamp plays on your device only; you can cast it to other connected speakers/receivers but you have to do it manually and it depends on your device playing the music and being present on the network. It’s a little annoying that you can’t just continue to play to the entire network directly, like a Sonos. That’s where HEOS or Sonos comes in. With HEOS, your phone is just the controller, the stereo plays directly from the Plex DLNA server. Sonos is a different ecosystem, and does not integrate with DLNA but can play from NAS another way. Roon, yeah, I’m not there yet. Don’t imagine I ever will be, this setup is probably all I need. Tactile element - yup, but I already lived that life. I can enjoy the convenience of digital/streaming and the memory of reading liner notes. I was impressed and proud when my then 16 year old daughter asked for a record player for Christmas. She knew something was missing from her life. On 9/1/2024 at 2:23 AM, st_lupo said: blessedbythereeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Me too. Thanks motorcycling without earplugs in my 20s. On the bright side I think this is what allows me to enjoy Spotify, lol. I can still appreciate high-res material but like I said, I have to be paying close attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumpyride Posted September 2 Report Share Posted September 2 https://www.stereophile.com/content/chord-electronics-hugo-m-scaler-upsampling-digital-processor Take a look at the above article and then the picture of the waveform and how the signal is closer to an analog signal. Vinyl is still better but comes with some serious caveats ($$$). Can't improve the original, but you can improve how the original is played back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortcutToMoncton Posted September 3 Report Share Posted September 3 7 hours ago, Jack M said: That’s where HEOS or Sonos comes in. With HEOS, your phone is just the controller, the stereo plays directly from the Plex DLNA server. Sonos is a different ecosystem, and does not integrate with DLNA but can play from NAS another way. Roon, yeah, I’m not there yet. Don’t imagine I ever will be, this setup is probably all I need. Tactile element - yup, but I already lived that life. I can enjoy the convenience of digital/streaming and the memory of reading liner notes. I was impressed and proud when my then 16 year old daughter asked for a record player for Christmas. She knew something was missing from her life. Me too. Thanks motorcycling without earplugs in my 20s. On the bright side I think this is what allows me to enjoy Spotify, lol. I can still appreciate high-res material but like I said, I have to be paying close attention. Yeah….I have HEOS through my Marantz HT receiver, and also a few Sonos speakers scattered around as well. I tend not to enjoy either interface as well as PlexAmp (Sonos in particular recently did some app updates that set my DJ experience back IMO). Roon was the best overall interface for me and got closest to the physical experience, and could play through all my speakers/receivers at the same time…I paid for a couple years of subscription but didn’t buy a lifetime version at the time, and they ended up really increasing the price a few years back. Too bad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted September 3 Author Report Share Posted September 3 Yeah the PlexAmp UI is much nicer, but if you play it through your phone to wherever via AirPlay, Airplay is limited to CD quality (16/44) and can have other issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVR Posted September 4 Report Share Posted September 4 So many things to process here... Any modern DAC has sufficient RAM to buffer to the point you don't have the issues CDs used to have. Today, 10s of Megs of buffering is not expensive like it used to be anymore. The reason people like the sound of vinyl records was due to the small, but perceptible reverbs the needle would give, but more over the amplifiers these were pumped into. One would never hear clipping, or the analog signal to the speakers would never go square or flat top due to the tubes pushing so many amps. Those old amps needed their own nuclear power plant to run them, but electricity cost and efficiency who cared about back then anyway. Todays sample rates are much better, but it is still an Digital to Analog conversion to the speakers, which is still limited by electromagnetic field strength, induction, and all the other physical elements there in. Today everyone's systems are all about efficiency, which is great, but the physical air moved by the smaller speakers is less, and therefore you get the effects therein. I remember an 8 track in my old Nova (with the blower sticking out of the hood, of course) and have repaired many an amp since. It might surprise peeps in this channel if they know the size of the system in my Griffith. (My Subs each weigh 57lbs each, as example) Anyway, my $0.02 worth... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted September 5 Author Report Share Posted September 5 On 9/2/2024 at 3:09 PM, bumpyride said: Vinyl is still better why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skhil Posted September 6 Report Share Posted September 6 On 9/4/2024 at 9:49 PM, Jack M said: why? My guess it's because it has been HIFI format longer than a century. It was THE HIFI format for so long that it has blended with the concept. From engineering point of view vinyl as a format has quite a few drawbacks. For example if we assume that the accuracy of the groove is constant, the quality near the end (center) will be worse than at the start (edge). It's due to the different length corresponding to one second of the sound. Dynamic range about 60-70dB (compared to 90-95dB for modern 16bit DAC) and pretty low SNR, which is about 50dB for vinyl record, to name not so obvious ones. I don't deny, some of the tricks they invented are fascinating. For example the use of the equalization to reduce both the groove width and the damage the needle induces during the playback. Needless to say it does come at price. RIAA equalization for the playback amplifies the low frequencies which include bearings rumble. Wikipedia has an article with more detailed comparison. To sum up, digital formats (AudioCD in particular) are more precise then vinyl records nowadays. It doesn't necessarily mean that they will sound better to your ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumpyride Posted September 6 Report Share Posted September 6 On 9/4/2024 at 6:49 PM, Jack M said: why? I use the Chord Hugo TT2 and the M-scaler sometimes with the Hugo as a Preamp. The sound is very precise and well-defined. Sometimes too precise. You lose some of the soul of the music. Other times I use a Tube Preamp with the Hugo as the Dac, and (depending on the music) has a bit more naturalness to it. That's what tubes introduce. If you wanted to describe it in another way, it would be like pronouncing a word using a hard language accent like German compared to a romance language accent like French; same word, but a subtly different tonal inflection. Now that's with a tube Preamp. Once you introduce vinyl with a good cartridge and turntable it follows the same path. The sounds tend to be more natural, maybe not as precise (or hard) but more like you hear in everyday speech. Some harmonics seem to resonate better with vinyl because it's an analog wave that flows instead of a square wave that is chopped (as seen with that diagram from the previous post). The more taps in a square wave, the less square (chopped) it sounds. Copied: The Chord Electronics Hugo M Scaler is a standalone digital audio upscaler that has over 1 million taps. The taps refer to the filter coefficients that the signal is run through. A higher number of taps means the signal is processed by more coefficients in the filter. The more taps, the closer it is to an analog wave, but it is not an analog wave. For me it was a game changer (that is the M-Scaler). YMMV. So far it's as close as I can get to Analog, but without all the drawbacks of Analog (cost/convenience/time). Audio is a rabbit hole that is in practice just a never-ending warren. Vinyl is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortcutToMoncton Posted September 6 Report Share Posted September 6 I mean, it’s objectively worse in almost every way you can think of. But subjectively, it’s a tactile machine. You can feel how it works and you need a level of intention to do it. It just feels better. I use the analogy of a manual car. Does it engage you and feel amazing? Yes. Does it force you to avoid multitasking and focus on what you’re doing? Yes. Does it make you immediately jump on AutoTrader to confirm that for some reason that S2000 you could never afford is somehow even more expensive now? Every time. Are the few versions that still exist better than the modern crap sold to most consumers today that are easier to use and don’t need any attention paid to them while you check your dms? For sure. Does it objectively provide worse performance than any fancy new high performance automatic? Unfortunately yes. Does everyone talk about their love of the old format, but when it comes time to put their money down just buy the new stuff? Also yes. Vinyl is still better though. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted September 7 Report Share Posted September 7 7 hours ago, ShortcutToMoncton said: Does everyone talk about their love of the old format, but when it comes time to put their money down just buy the new stuff? Also yes. Shrugs. I drive a Miata. My Linn Sondek still sounds great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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