Ankle fusion & (hopeful) hard boot advice

[sorefoot]

Hi.   Noob here.

I have a problem ..... I have a dilemma.

Five months ago I had to have my right ankle (I ride goofy) fused due to severe arthritis after an old snowboarding accident.   The result is a slowly recovering, relatively pain free ankle joint that I am hopeful will allow me to get back onto the slopes.  All good so-far.   Unfortunately, my existing soft boot setup (Van Cirrus boots and Nidecker cloverleaf bindings) don't even come close to offering enough support on my shin as my  foot/ankle has been fused at approx +5 degrees extension.   The soft boots simply have too much forward lean and flex.   To correct this I have an 8mm heel orthotic to enable me to correctly stand upright.   Consequently, I will have to switch to hardboots and adjust the cuff to the most upright setting, then include additional shims between the shell and liner to get my knee over the top of my foot.

Living in the UK I have no access to anyone who sells or knows anything about alpine boots 'so I am going to have to spend a lot of money on buying boots, getting them to the UK, and then trusting a nice new shiny pair of boots to a boot fitter who I don't know and hope he can modify the shell to fit my wide forefeet (118mm) the inevitable raised heel and arch, and increased ankle volume.

I 'was' a good intermediate rider who wasn't fussed on fakey or park life.   I am looking for an all mountain solution but with a stiff boot for support, and appreciate that this may give a bit of a conflict in boot/binding/board design intents, along with some fun times trying to re-learn to board again.

The advice / thoughts, I am hopeful of getting here is, considering my ankle fusion, which is better, and why - Deeluxe 425Pro, Deeluxe 700 T Del, or UPZ RC11?   I am leaning towards the UPZ but not too sure why.....

I know the question has been asked before but I cant see anything linking decisions to ankle injurys.
I have asked similar questions of both UPZ and Deeluxe directly and have received nothing back from them - poor (potential) customer service so far..........
Sorry for the lengthy first post -- I will try to keep the rest shorter ;-)

Thank you in advance for any advice you may have.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I am not sure you will need a boot as stiff as the 425 Pro. I am thinking in your case Deeluxe will work better as the locking forward lean mechanism will let you lock the boot in a fairly upright position. They will likely need to be punched out for width. 

[lonbordin]

You're probably best off with the UPZ as the 425 pro and the 700 are stiffer and less wide in the forefoot (In my experience).  The UPZ does have the ability to lock in lean angles.  That said the UPZ stock liners are no bueno.  With your issues you probably want a moldable intuition liner no matter what shell you end up purchasing.

Good Luck!

[Neil Gendzwill]

2 hours ago, lonbordin said:

The UPZ does have the ability to lock in lean angles.

They have the spring, too though.  Doesn't it add more forward flex, that being the whole purpose?

[lonbordin]

Neil... I'm not 100% what the whole purpose of the UPZ spring/lock is... It's a hybrid of a spring system and a lock system with the springs not having all that much travel which can be reduced even more by tightening the nuts. It has more travel and locking options than the Deeluxe RAB or the standard lock/walk system of DeeLuxe but far less travel (and no lock) of the BTS or that system from Italy that I can't remember the acronym of...  DGSS???

Back to OP.  I'm just really worried that you are coming from a soft/medium stiffness softboot to a hardboot.  AND we have no idea your stature!  Neil and I are on the opposite ends of the human spectrum so our perception of boot flex/stiffness is going to be coming from opposite ends of the earth.

OP, you are wrong about UK and hardboots... you just need to talk to @philw 

Maybe catch up to Phil at Ski Rossendale.  :-D  or when he's going steep and deep.

[philw]

;-) yeah, a bit busy in the powder here, but if I can help of course I will. I'm now based in Cambridge but travel here and there. 

--
The UPZ people attend the Carving Masters thing in Sölden and drink beer, so if all else fails you can have a chat with them then. I don't think they post etc. I may have their business card (with personal email address) somewhere, or some of the German guys here or on "frozen backside" may be able to help. Actually Frozen Backside is where you probably want to ask this question as those boots are Austrian and that's where those guys are...

I don't really understand precisely what you're trying to do, but I have some old Rachlie (whatever the top model was, now Deluxe) boots and also some old Indy (ow 700?) boots which you could have a hack at as test material, although size is presumably critical. I would say generally you can do anything you want with a hard shell boot, given enough ingenuity and time, but of course starting from the right place would help.

I note that some modern soft boots are getting stiffer, plus the Burton Step On thing takes you in that direction too, or so I'm told. Which foot are we talking about and what angles of lean are you thinking?

Note that you have toe and heel lift to play with as well as the forward lean thing. I'm not sure precisely what "fused" does - I'm assuming it means that the angle of your ankle is fixed? What's the mechanical issue you're trying to fix?

[sorefoot]

Hi.
Thank you all for your comments.   A great demonstration of how little 'detail' can be got from sales information only.

I will try to answer some of your questions;
Lonbordin -- I think Intuition liner was always going to be on my 'must have' list,
Lonbordin -- 96Kg, 6 Ft tall,
Lonbordin -- The transition from soft boots to hard boots will likely take a bit of re-learning but where there is a will........ ?
Neil -- Since my original post I have spoken to a local reputable ski-boot fitter regarding some of my perceived shell stretch options/theories and in principle they should be possible so I am at the very least a bit more comfortable about a speculative £££ spend.
Philw -- Fused ankle is my front (right) foot,
Philw -- The ankle is set at roughly +5 degree plantar flexion, the only flex-extend motion I now have is with the forefoot bones/joints with free-movement range now roughly +25 to +5 degrees degrees plantar.    I can get to neutral position (0 degrees) with a bit of stretching but its neither easy nor particularly comfortable, hence the requirement for internal heel raising shims and footbeds to get my knee over my toes & a stiff boot shell to prevent my foot going into dorsiflexion under stress (toe-side).   Unfortunately, its the lack of adjustable forward lean that soft boots, even stiff ones, can't deliver for me.    By design, they assume a natural range of dorsiflexion in the ankle joint and restrict movement accordingly.   Sorry if I haven't explained this too well - its good in my head

I have considered bindings with adjustable lean including Catek a few years ago, and tried a few modifications to my existing gear.   While they may help fine-tune my riding I can't get over the fact that the boot has to provide me with the initial  and primary mechanical assistance.

So, I am going to have to set the shell in its most upright position (whatever that may be), and then introduce shims/heel raisers to bridge the gap between the physical restrictions of my ankle and the allowable lean characteristics of the boot.    Also, an adjustable pate binding with forward lean ability will also be on my purchase list.
Oh the joys of sporting injuries.

[AcousticBoarder]

One important thing to note about the UPZ vs Deeluxe is that the foot ramp is much more prevalent in the UPZs (the heel is lifted higher up). Be sure to take this into consideration, it may help or hinder to go with one vs the other. UPZs atleast are fairly easy to stiffen or turn into jello depending on the tongue and liner you use, I think the Deeluxe boots are more dependant on the shell, but I have not worked with them too much. @Beckmann AG can probably offer better advice.

A potential option for soft boots too may be power plates with a 6 degree cant/lift, but I suspect you will still need changes in boots to make them more upright which I do not know if such a boot exists.

[BlueB]

I don't think that any existing snowboard specific hard boots can overextend past 90 deg, or get locked like that... You might have better luck with some ski or AT boots that have walk mode. You'd still probably have to modify them, though. It's really the type of question for Beckmann... 

[b0ardski]

On 12/30/2017 at 10:26 PM, BlueB said:

I don't think that any existing snowboard specific hard boots can overextend past 90 deg, or get locked like that... You might have better luck with some ski or AT boots that have walk mode. You'd still probably have to modify them, though. It's really the type of question for Beckmann... 

I think B  is right, available sb hardboots won't be easily modified to lock in that upright, however most any AT ski boot has a forward lean mechanism that could be drilled to lock in at 5-10 degrees of lean (usually set around 12-20 degrees locked in) and the back foot can be left in walk mode for a more soft boot like feel.

lots of split boarders are modding AT boots to get soft boot feel with plates

[sorefoot]

Thanks BlueB.   I hadn't considered AT boots - certainly worth a look.

[Faceake]

On 21/12/2017 at 5:31 PM, sorefoot said:

 

Hi sorefoot,

I am in the same situation as yourself. However, My right ankle has naturally fused itself together over the past 15 years since I smashed it and had various ops. Used to be a skateboarder but never been able to do this, however I am keen to get into snowboarding but have concerns on how to fit a boot. Very keen to find out how you got on and if you have any advice. 

 

Thanks

[Faceake]

Hi Sorefoot,

I am in the same situation as yourself, However my right ankle smashed over 15 years ago. I have never snowboarded, but used to skateboard, but had to give this up. I'm very keen to hit the slopes as my wife is a keen skier, and I always miss out as I can't find a boot that works.

1)How did you get on? Did you find a way to get round the lack of movement?

2) Also my right foot would be my front foot on the board and understanding this helps me as there is less movement required? Is this correct....

Any guidance would be great.

TIA

[scottishsurfer]

@Faceake are you looking to ride soft or hardboots? If its softboots it might be worth looking up DSUK, now your probably not in need of there services but most of there instructors also teach normal lessons at snowdomes and resorts. so it might help to find out who they are and when it comes to lessons ask if you can request one of them as they will have experience working around injuries. For example if its glasgow snowfactor itll be james flemming youd be best off asking for as he works for both dsuk and sf