Lift and Cant Possible on TD3??

[barryj]

Curious more than anything........This doesn't happen on steeper terrain but on Blue runs my rear knee is falling behind my heel side turns and wondering how would you add cant to a TD3 SW SI?  I already have a Bomber 6 degree "cant" disk for heel lift in there.   Seems like they should be called Lift Disks instead of Cant disks ??   

What would happen if you rotated the 6 degree disk marking  from behind the heel to the outside of the binding??  You still be getting possibly 3 degree lift along with the inward canting ??       You would lose some lift and that's way more canting than I would ever want,  but what say ye Sages??

[bobble]

tweak-o-matic

http://www.alpinecarving.com/tmtd2/

 

[Beckmann AG]

28 minutes ago, barryj said:

Curious more than anything........This doesn't happen on steeper terrain but on Blue runs my rear knee is falling behind my heel side turns

Curious as to what you mean by this.

Can you clarify into something suitable for comment?

[breeseomatic]

TD3 rings are adjustable in 5 degree increments from the ring to board and infinitely adjustable from plate to ring.  It's arguably more resolution than you could ever feel.

You are correct in that adding any canting (inward or outward) to a pure heel or toe lift setting will decrease the total amount of lift, but don't get hung up on the numbers, just rotate the bases a few "clicks" to get your setting.

 

[barryj]

Uh........  My rear knee isn't driving towards the heelside turn....it's pointing more away from the turn, by a couple of inches if I get too relaxed.

On steeper terrain, black runs my knees are always pointing toward the trajectory 

[Carvin' Marvin]

Sounds like you answered your own question. You are too relaxed on moderate terrain.  A good knee drive isn't something that happens automatically as the terrain gets steeper (afaik). A little outward cant might help it feel more natural but it will cost you some lift. 

[barryj]

Yeah Carvin....that's what I thought!

[Corey]

If you play with the tweakomatic above, you'll notice that the amount of lift you lose even with substantial cant isn't very much. Try it. 

And attack those steeps! 

[Jack M]

http://www.bomberonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/canting-and-lift.pdf

 

the ability to do exactly what you’re talking about is the raison d’etre of the TD2 and 3. 

[nigelc]

22 hours ago, barryj said:

My rear knee isn't driving towards the heelside turn....

Can you explain why you think this is undesirable?

[barryj]

Corey what degree Bomber cant (lift) ring are you running on your rear foot ?   You doing any cant ring rotation to get that inward or outward  canting were talking about??  

[Corey]

I'm running 40-degrees of rear cant with whatever rear foot angle suits the board. That's little under 60 degrees for a 20cm board. 

That's with a 6-degree cant ring. 

[Beckmann AG]

On December 16, 2017 at 6:17 PM, barryj said:

Uh........  My rear knee isn't driving towards the heelside turn....it's pointing more away from the turn, by a couple of inches if I get too relaxed.

On steeper terrain, black runs my knees are always pointing toward the trajectory 

Right. So if you drive your car with your hands on the wheel, rather than your elbows,  then find the start of each turn with your feet, and not so much your hindquarters. That should help somewhat. 

If you find that simply being mindful of body parts isn't enough, then futz around with your rear binding or boot cuff.

If you're using a 6 on the rear binding, try a 3.

 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Beckmann AG
no

[barryj]

So if my rear binding angle is 50 degrees and I'm also using a 6 degree ring....      + 40 of cant  now aligns as 90 on the base plate alignment indent....which pushes the "6" notches on the disk ring counter clockwise about 2 inches....and definitely cants me inward! 

[barryj]

Beckman.......,  I understand and emulate driving  the knees into the turn, but your saying drive the feet into the turn?  I do feel I'm somewhat  tilting/twisting my feet laterally in the boot (0 heel lift) just ever so slightly to set up the turns

Why might a 3 degree have effect my.... mindfulness??

[Beckmann AG]

The action of the knees should compliment and facilitate the movements of the feet.

If you are more 'effective' while making a concerted effort, as on steeper terrain, but not when things get 'blue', then there is something in the interface calling for attention. 

To greater or lesser extent, the ZPU and LeeDuxe boots have excessive internal bootboard ramp, which suggests a 6 in front and a 3 in back. Not for everyone, mind you, but that's a good 'start' point if you would like to be remotely centered on your feet.

[nigelc]

I don't know if the old Bomber article about separating the knees is still available? Worth a read definitely

[Corey]

8 hours ago, barryj said:

So if my rear binding angle is 50 degrees and I'm also using a 6 degree ring....      + 40 of cant  now aligns as 90 on the base plate alignment indent....which pushes the "6" notches on the disk ring counter clockwise about 2 inches....and definitely cants me inward! 

Cant angle on Bomber bindings are quoted relative to the baseplate. Line up the dot with the number, that's the cant. No math involved. 

My cant disk and binding angle are both rotated the same direction. Definitely slight outward cant if the binding angle is greater than the cant disc angle. 

Have you played with the tweakomatic above? It makes graphs to help explain. 

Best of all - try stuff and see what feels better? I think you're in the analysis paralysis stage. 

[Jack M]

8 hours ago, nigelc said:

I don't know if the old Bomber article about separating the knees is still available? Worth a read definitely

http://www.bomberonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Separate-Zee-Knees.pdf

1 hour ago, Corey said:

Cant angle on Bomber bindings are quoted relative to the baseplate. Line up the dot with the number, that's the cant. No math involved. 

Well, it's the direction of the cant, not the amount, but not to worry.  For example my cant disc on my rear foot is at 45 degrees.  My binding angle is at 58 degrees, so I have heel lift and some outward cant.

[Corey]

2 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

Well, it's the direction of the cant, not the amount, but not to worry.  For example my cant disc on my rear foot is at 45 degrees.  My binding angle is at 58 degrees, so I have heel lift and some outward cant.

Right, thanks for clarifying! According to the TrenchGear3D app, I have 5.6 degrees of heel lift and 2 degrees of outward cant on my rear foot with the cant ring at 40 degrees and the baseplate at 59 degrees.  

Or in simple terms - what feels best for me.   

[barryj]

Hmm...............On my 6 degree cant ring my rear binding angle is 55 degrees......and I lined up the base plate "dot"  to 90 degrees...towards inward  cant.

When riding at this new rear lift and now inward cant I didn't notice much difference.   rear knee seemed vaguely easier to keep/stay in alignment to the turn .......but definitely not any negative results either. 

I think I will add another 20 degrees towards inward cant to see if I feel a difference..................  

[west carven]

howdy barryj

not to sound mean, but I don't think it's your gear, I think it's your body positioning.

I ride many boards with slightly different settings and will adjust my body accordingly.

[Corey]

Try it Barry, and then try the opposite.  Make big changes at first, then narrow down to what works best for you.  Kind of like your optometrist.  "Better or worse?"

For me, my need for more outward cant was driven by my feeling like I was balancing exclusively on the outsides of my feet.  (Yes, I have proper footbeds.)  The sides of my calf muscles were exploding from overuse and constant tension.  Once I dialed it in, I could relax and 'feel' the snow better.  

1 hour ago, west carven said:

not to sound mean, but I don't think it's your gear, I think it's your body positioning.

I ride many boards with slightly different settings and will adjust my body accordingly.

There's definitely two trains of thought: 

1. Gear must be microadjusted to within the hundredth of a degree to give you peak performance.  If it's out a bit, you might go blind.

2. Just ride maaaan. Don't worry, your Chakra will be fine.  

In general, the internet seems to be more focused on the first class by nature of self-selection.  Most people fall somewhere in the middle, where if you get in the ballpark you'll be good.  

[Beckmann AG]

21 hours ago, barryj said:

When riding at this new rear lift and now inward cant I didn't notice much difference.   rear knee seemed vaguely easier to keep/stay in alignment to the turn .......but definitely not any negative results either. 

If you can't see the game, you're still outside the arena. 

This is one of those situations where a short video clip would expedite resolution.

 

11 hours ago, Corey said:

1. Gear must be microadjusted to within the hundredth of a degree to give you peak performance.  If it's out a bit, you might go blind.

2. Just ride maaaan. Don't worry, your Chakra will be fine.  

In general, the internet seems to be more focused on the first class by nature of self-selection.  Most people fall somewhere in the middle, where if you get in the ballpark you'll be good.  

Humor aside: Given your interest in MoSport, have you taken the time/had the opportunity to rearrange the steering geometry/alignment on your vehicle(s) either to the recommended specs (to the tenth degree), or to purposely make the car harder to handle?

If not, you should. The principles and goals of chassis tuning are almost exactly the same with the car and snowboard.

At least from where I stand.

One has to wonder if those in your second category would knowingly drive in inclement conditions with a clattering tie rod end, or their front wheels toed out, taking pride in their ability to 'adapt'.

 

 

[west carven]

howdy barryj

I asked an Olympic world cup coach what degree he rides and he told me he doesn't know... he just

put his bindings near the edge for optimal edge pressure. I took this as every board is different and

every board requires different settings. if you have the perfect setting, but don't how to ride, how will

you know what is going on? I know barryj rides funky boards and it requires very different body dynamics.

a race board is very different from a pow specific board... ride the edge... use the force...