Newbie looking for advice

[TLN]

1 hour ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

This guy wants to use it for all-mountain riding. When I think of all-mountain, I think it should work in the bumps, in the trees, in cut-up pow, etc etc.

I personally don't get an idea of hardboots in pow on anything but swallowtail, but may be that's just me.

I've been to  Chicago local resorts. No bumps, trees, or something else. No powder also.

I agree that something wider would work better for newbie though.

[Neil Gendzwill]

21 minutes ago, TLN said:

I personally don't get an idea of hardboots in pow on anything but swallowtail, but may be that's just me.

I've been to  Chicago local resorts. No bumps, trees, or something else. No powder also.

I agree that something wider would work better for newbie though.

He's not talking about riding in Chicago local resorts, he's talking about his 2 or 3 trips west with friends. Hardboots work fine in powder on an all-mountain board.

[lordmetroland]

1 hour ago, olshitsky said:

Sean suggested not getting a metal core as it may not hold up in all mountain riding, but he said he could add a dampening system. Any thoughts on that?  I would imagine I'd want more kick (less damp?) if i'm going through bumps/trees?

I think I'm on a similar arc. After years of going for stiffer and stiffer softboots, I finally succumbed to the inevitable pull of the BOL vortex and bought a pair of UPZ ATBs - allegedly the softest hardboot available - which I'm hoping will turn into my all-mountain boot of choice. I'm pairing them with Catek OS2s and/or Bomber TD3s on top of either a Rad Air Tanker or a Donek Hazelwood. In softies I take them everywhere. The Hazelwood crushes anything in its path and feels plenty damp. This is my grand experiment for 2017 and will probably turn out to be less of a success than a cautionary tale.

[lordmetroland]

1 hour ago, olshitsky said:

Sean suggested not getting a metal core as it may not hold up in all mountain riding, but he said he could add a dampening system. Any thoughts on that?  I would imagine I'd want more kick (less damp?) if i'm going through bumps/trees?

I think I'm on a similar arc. After years of going for stiffer and stiffer softboots, I finally succumbed to the inevitable pull of the BOL vortex and bought a pair of UPZ ATBs - allegedly the softest hardboot available - which I'm hoping will turn into my all-mountain boot of choice. I'm pairing them with Catek OS2s and/or Bomber TD3s on top of either a Rad Air Tanker or a Donek Hazelwood. In softies I take them everywhere. The Hazelwood crushes anything in its path and feels plenty damp. This is my grand experiment for 2017 and will probably turn out to be less of a success than a cautionary tale.

[philw]

Are we obsessing: no, we are waiting for the snow. I don't agree with everything here, but it's an internet forum, and this is what they're like. Whatever you're looking at, you will not get a single simple obvious answer. There is seldom consensus. Adults can deal with this.

Slalom boards: I ride them at resorts, but they're garbage in powder to the extent of being impractical in heli terrain. "All mountain" then, they are not. "All resort", certainly, on the feet of an expert. I would not recommend people start there.

Swallow Tails: we have people here who ride those, but in BC Powder I've still never seen one ridden well, and you see fewer and fewer. I know no one's recommending that, but my point is.... that many "carving" people have world views which are limited by their niche manufacturers and what they can do. Forget that, for powder, hire a powder board and stick your hard boots and bindings on it.

Kessler: sure, I love mine, but they're SL or GS or BX, none of which would seem suitable for a learner.

---

If your world is powder then I'd get some boots and bindings, stick them on a Fish or any modern powder board and get it done. If you're a resort person, then I'd get a second hand board which is not in any way extreme. So not a real race board (it can have "race written on it: not the same thing). Not something stupidly narrow. Not a dedicated (American) huge "carving" board. Something, in fact "all mountain.

Then ride it until you know what's wrong with it.:That knowledge will help you work out what to do next. It's not hard or expensive: I think I probably only ever owned 5 boards in 25 years.

--

Oh yeah, sorry to say it here, but those American bindings are extremely stuff and kind of over engineered, unless you're huge or something then I can't think they would be the best thing for all mountain. Look at what people you see riding what you want to ride are using.

[TLN]

1 hour ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

He's not talking about riding in Chicago local resorts, he's talking about his 2 or 3 trips west with friends. Hardboots work fine in powder on an all-mountain board.

Oh, sorry, Missed that.

I've tried my 4WD 179 in powder, and that was terrible. I will do way better now in similar conditions, but thanks. I can see how this works for someone else though. I was 220+lbs riding in 4ft fresh pow/trees.

I guess everyone here have different definition of "all mountain", "trees", "powder" and carving which causes lots of confusion.
 

[Neil Gendzwill]

OK, well 4 feet of fresh in trees is probably a big ask for a long all-mountain board.  There's only so much a compromised tool can do reasonably well.  I've got a Nirvana 180 which I have found to be on the large size for all mountain riding, so now I use a Coiler AM 167 for that sort of stuff.  I haven't had it in those kinds of conditions but it's done well in conditions most carvers would not want to find themselves in.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Neil Gendzwill

[Corey]

1 hour ago, philw said:

Then ride it until you know what's wrong with it.:That knowledge will help you work out what to do next.

Wise words Phil!  

[snowboardfast]

I would agree that a metal board is not needed for all mountain riding with hardboots. I ride boards that are not metal construction for all mountain. Boards that I ride are Burton ALP 164, PUREBOARDING bastard 162 , i also have a Wild duck 161 swap and a F2 breezer 158 that I ride. These are all fun boards that are  very versatile that will ride all mountain. I do not ride trees as I am afraid of making a mistake and hitting one? I can ride bumps steeps and off trail with these boards and spring slush as well. If it is a deep powder day I have a powder board for that. I would not want to ride these in deep powder but they work well for a few inches of new snow.I like a shorter board for all mountain as it is less effort to manuever on steep terrain and moguls. I used to ride a Donek 172 ax but I sold it because I like a shorter board. The Donek AX is a fine all mountain board as is the Prior 4wd. All of these boards will work for all mountain riding.   If you riding inColorado on your west trips you could arrange a demo for an AX with Bomber or Donek?  Another way to demo boards would be to attend SES. The Pureboarding crew usually is at SES and you could demo one of their boards a s well?  

[olshitsky]

Just an update, I just ordered the Donek Axxess 167 (Sean said my height/weight probably deserved a 172, but I opted for the next smaller size).  Also had him put a dampening layer on it.  Bindings & boots being ordered this week.  Can't wait for my first trip out west!

Edited October 1, 2016 by olshitsky

[icebiker]

On 10/1/2016 at 3:27 PM, olshitsky said:

Just an update, I just ordered the Donek Axxess 167 (Sean said my height/weight probably deserved a 172, but I opted for the next smaller size).  Also had him put a dampening layer on it.  Bindings & boots being ordered this week.  Can't wait for my first trip out west!

Congrats!  I'm a little late to this thread but wanted to let you know I followed a similar path to much of the advice on this string when I began piecing together my first alpine set up about 4 years ago and I think you're going to love this board.   I have an Axxess in a 172 length, and ride it with TD SW SI's and Deeluxe 225's.  I asked Sean to build with a tighter than standard SC (9-11) since I ride mainly east coast, and had him make it wider to accommodate my canoes (31 mondo).  It was perfect from the first turn.  I've since progressed to steeper angles and so it's probably a cm or 2 wider than I would prefer at this point, but still a great set up for all mountain riding.  I will say that the TD SI's add some weight so my preference for deeper powder and late-day crud is my Ride Yukon 172 with Burton/Ibex race plates and Deeluxe LeMans. Lighter, less edge length, twin tip. Most important in powder (for me anyway) was switching the boots to powder mode. Seems obvious but it took me some time to flip the switch instinctively.

Enjoy your new set up and post up pics when it's all together!

[TVR]

Seems like you have plenty of good advice here, but please let my give just a bit more.

 

The one thing I have noticed is the hard booting comunity is very open. If you see a hard booter, there is a very good chance they are on some equipment they are proud of, or have one hell of a good story about. Reach out to them, and say hello in the lift line.

 

Hardbooting with a fellow hardbooter for a day will and I find to be one of the best things as I haven't found any who shun the company of others.

[olshitsky]

All,

Just wanted to thank everyone for the info provided in this thread.  Got my board (Donek Axxess), bindings (TD3) and boots (Deeluxe 225).  Many thanks to Jim Callen for the help setting everything up.

I'm riding Keystone this Saturday, if you see a hardbooter with a lime green helmet, say hi.  I might even try to make the event at Loveland on Sunday.

Thanks again!

 

Jeff

[Neil Gendzwill]

Sounds like a great all-mountain setup. Good luck!

[Erik J]

Nice, welcome to the fun side

[olshitsky]

Well, first weekend spent on my setup.  I was at Keystone last weekend (only a short 5 hours from DIA to the mountain.  Got in at 3am!).

And wouldn't you know it, we had 17" of fresh the next morning.  Not really the ideal day for my first day on a HB setup.

I had a tremendous times and my board wanted me to do things that I'm just not capable of doing yet.  It's a beast and I was amazed at how much control I had at high speeds. 

 

A few questions to the community:

1.  My feet hurt.  Is this just something that I have to accept?  I got my liners heat molded at my local shop.  But they still felt tight, especially when I ratcheted them tight.  I also play ice-hockey and I've just gotten used to the notion that if I want to really secure my boot to provide stability and support, I'll have to suffer minor discomfort and numbness.  Of course, hockey is for an hour or so, not 4-5 that I spent on the mountain.

2.  My stance is at 55 front, 50 back.  On Saturday, I managed to get through some bumps but it wasn't easy.  With that being said, they were soft and even on my softboot setup, going through 17" of fresh takes some horsepower.  By Sunday, as the bumps were a bit deeper, I had a really difficult time getting around on them, especially kicking around to toe-side.  My question is this:  Is this just my legs not being conditioned enough, is it a technique I need to learn, if I want to ride bumps should I adjust my stance, or should I realize that bumps (and similarly, trees) aren't really what this board is for?

 

Either way, I'm hooked.

 

[TLN]

Yeah. Feet hurts for a while. Like a season or two. :)  It will be better after several days in them.

Bumps and trees is no fun on alpine. You can try narrower stance or something, but it will fall behind any softboot board anyway. I can agree that some people can ride it pretty effectively on alpine though.

[Neil Gendzwill]

1. Don't buckle your boots too tight. If they are fitted correctly you just need them snug. It is also possible you need to mould them again. My first try, the boots were unwearable. I ended up wrapping the whole forefoot with foam tape to create more room, rather than just a toe cap. 

2. I ride that stance in bumps and trees all the time. However I think you need to get used to hardboots and a forward stance on groomed first. 

[michael.a]

Ditto on what Neil said.

1. Moldable liners are for just that purpose, even in the hands of an expert bootfitter you may have to have the liners remolded a second time. With the proper padding on and around the foot during the molding process you can feel like your wearing slippers but have the foot locked down and in power mode when riding.

2. Ill agree HB isnt ideal for bumps but it can be fun. You need to get down really low, like fully flexed knees, and work as one giant shock absorber. A common issue is boot stiffness. Im not a fan of riding in unlocked but try riding with the rear (and only the rear) foot in walk mode. Or invest in a spring system to get them boots a bending.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

10 hours ago, olshitsky said:

My stance is at 55 front, 50 back.  On Saturday, I managed to get through some bumps but it wasn't easy.  With that being said, they were soft and even on my softboot setup, going through 17" of fresh takes some horsepower.  By Sunday, as the bumps were a bit deeper, I had a really difficult time getting around on them, especially kicking around to toe-side.  My question is this:  Is this just my legs not being conditioned enough, is it a technique I need to learn, if I want to ride bumps should I adjust my stance, or should I realize that bumps (and similarly, trees) aren't really what this board is for?

Well, you are on a board that doesn't really like bumps, but, it can deal with them if piloted correctly.And, I'll give a hint in a sec.. Angles; You note that the toeside didn't quite come around as you'd expect/hope? Try backing off a tad on powder days, to 50-ish front, and around, or just under 45 rear. The idea here being that booting-out isn't going to be a big issue in fluff, So, put your toes/heels right over the edges for better pressure control. Note, also, that when you are up past 45 degrees, pressuring isn't really Toes+Heels anymore, it's leaning/flexing at the boot cuff. Under 25 degrees, on down into freestyle negative (duck) stances, it's almost completely Toes+Heels to pressure the board. Between 25 and 50 degrees, there's an awesome 'sweet spot', where you can either drive from the boot cuffs, or use Toes+Heels, OR, Better yet, use BOTH moves to control Steering And Pressure. Just remember to move your angles back to 'steeper' when it's groomers, to prevent booting out.

Now, as for bumpiness, try this lil' mind game;  Look at the bumps, a few at a time, and imagine how water, roiling, fast moving water, would flow down between them.  It's going to splash along the bump's sides, looking for the lowest line it can. You just need to chase that water at it's highest, near splashing-over point with the board. Don't 'Edge', but rather press the base against that high point, and pivot your turns from there. Hopefully, if you can find that line, you'll making quick, light turns along the sides of the bumps, and not be subjected to lots of crazy up+down absorption.