Upgrade my Loaded Vanguard?

[Corey]

I'm wondering if I can upgrade my Loaded Vanguard for improved pumping on very rough pavement.  My board is completely stock from about 4 or 5 years ago, stiffest flex, Randall trucks, Abec 11 Gumball wheels.  I'm not sure about the wheels...  I don't skate a lot, typically just getting around autocross sites for 1 or 2 miles total per day for about 4 days a month.  Hoping to get some more time on the board this year, like a 2 mile, or more, loop around a local park while my daughter rides her bike. 

 

The obvious question: What's wrong now?  Well, nothing.  It pumps just fine from a stop up to the top speed I'm comfortable going.  I really like the ability to bend the board and tighten the turn radius.  I'm curious if it could be noticeably better/easier to pump with minor changes.  

 

I think the first thing I should do is wedge the front truck and de-wedge the rear, and maybe change the bushings.  Is that right?  How much wedge/de-wedge?  I browsed Silverfish for a while and drooled over the dazzling array of new boards/trucks/wheels, which I'm not willing to invest in for how little I use a board.  

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

What you want is the Khiro Wedge Kit. I hope the link works, but if not, go to Sk8Kings, and look up Khiro as a brand. This kit lets you finesse the angles nicely. I'd recommend also thin rubber shim risers to level things out, and add a little vibration dampening. And, yup, you've got the concept with how to wedge the trucks; more steering up front, less at the rear.

 

http://www.sk8kings.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=S&Product_Code=SKKRO215

 

Your trucks are fine, just work out the bushing combo. Look into using a fat bushing (one with some bounce, so not the low-rebound Venom Eliminator), at the rear to give a quicker return-to-center (Tracker Stimulators, or Radikals, IF you can find them). Bear JimZ's, the Venom High-rebound Elim., or Ripide fatty would be what's findable nowadays. Up front, Reflex bushings, one barrel, one coned, would be a good way to dial in the steering. Get a pair that's a few durometer points both stiffer, then softer, than the stock bushings (which should be 88A?). Mix/match until it feels right.

 

With wheels, Gumballs are fine (I got 2nd at The Worlds Super-G on them, they work!) but are big for tighter turns. Zig-Zags, in the Reflex formula would increase grip and 'edge feel', but being smaller would be slower in LDP riding. Speed Vents in Black-Ops formula or Sk8kings Turbo [composite core] might be the better choice if you want the speed, but also have that crisp turn feel. Depends on how steep your hills are, I guess. Beware that many 'big' wheels out there now are deliberately less sticky, as the 'sliding' technique has gained favor (I shaped the No-Skool for that; Double radiused, center-set, pick your duro) , so some of the former 'Race' wheels (like Avilas) are not so great for pumping hard turns on.

 

Last item to consider would be a toe-stop up front, if you are on flatter areas. It'll add thrust and provide consistent foot placement.

[Corey]

Hills - umm, no.   It's pretty flat here; I would actively need to search out hills if I wanted.  Plus, I'm a wuss and really hate road rash so I mostly stick to flats.  I get my speed jollies in other ways.  

 

How does a toe-stop work?  Just screw a bushing into the board wherever you want with a wood screw?  I've seen them on truck bolts, but my feet are nowhere near the trucks on a Vanguard.  Sorry for my ignorance.  

 

I'll hit up a local skate shop, hopefully they have this stuff.  

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'll hit up a local skate shop, hopefully they have this stuff.  

Really unlikely to have the wedge kit.  You might want to look into spending money on different trucks.  The Bennett front/Tracker S rear combo I have works well and is cheap.  I note that Stoked is offering the Randall 125 as the default back truck on their LDP completes, so you could maybe stick with Randall on the back.  I have the 180s and they're not so hot for pumping.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Neil Gendzwill

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

The toe-stop is something you add, where you want to add it. A trick J.Gilmour showed me was to simply put a chalk mark along where your front little-toe is as you ride. Keep it as a reference for a bit, and see if your foot moves any. Once you know where your foot is happiest, bolt on your toeblock. Just use a T-nut+bolt that's at least a US #10 or Metric 5mm in diameter. 

 

Neil has a good idea with the Bennett/Tracker 'S' combo.  I tend to think of those in terms of skinny (5" wide) Slaloming trucks, but they both are available 4-1/2" up to 7" long axles, so these should fit at around 6", though a center-set wheel might end up being too narrow in track? Anyhow, that truck combo should have a nimble feel to it, and the Tracker 'S' (as in RTS) turns a much mellower rate than the Bennett. 

[Neil Gendzwill]

I actually have the Cinnett front truck, which is a Bennett hanger with a Cindrich baseplate.  You can pick the Cindrich with 15, 20 or 25 degree baseplates.  IIRC the stock Bennett is around 10.  I got the 20, and wedged it some more with the kit.  The Tracker S is de-wedged.  My Bennett is the 5" model, that's hanger width not axle.

 

I've got them mounted on an old Sector 9 bamboo pintail.  I shortened up the wheelbase to 30" on it, which made it more nimble and also stiffened up the flex considerably. 

 

I'm running orange Orangatang In Heats, which are 80A and 75mm.   It might be better to run softer wheels on the back but unless you are ordering from a site like Stoked you have to buy wheels in 4s.

 

With this setup I can easily cruise at 20 kph on smooth level ground.

[BlueB]

Neil's setup is nice. If you wanted a turbocharged version use the Seismic truck on stable base and dewedge some, at the back.

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[BlueB]

Oh and add spherical bearing to the Bennett.

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[Corey]

Those Bennetts are reasonably-priced! No local shops have stuff other than complete Sector9 decks. I shouldn't have been surprised.

I'll compile a list of parts and check in here to make sure I understood properly.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

I'll note again Sk8kings, as Rich, Rene, and Maria all know what's what, and they'll help with any questions. They also (being Slalomers) sell wheels by the pair, and know how to fit bushings. Note that Richy also made a flippable Randal-compatible hanger that doesn't need much by way of wedges, so it's a one-nut-turned solution unto itself. And, should you order from them, tell them I said Hola.

[permeated]

As others have said, definitely get a Khiro Wedge Kit. Those overpriced pieces of plastic are really worth it if you are even remotely into pumping, and if you like tinkering with setups (which I just assume everyone on Bomber does :)). You need wedging/dewedging to make pumping efficient, and the kit lets you find the angles that work best for your gear and technique. A difference of a single degree will be noticeable!

You can definitely try some things with your current gear and a wedge kit before ordering completely new stuff. I have spent many miles on Randals front and/or rear, and they are definitely a good geometry, especially rear!

(Disclosure: I currently ride Don't Trip Poppies on a gbomb deck and Indeesz+Randal on a Subsonic Pulse).

Try dewedging the rear to a final angle of around 27 degrees. I find this to be a good middle ground; you can try a lower angle for more power, and a higher angle for more surfiness.

Wedge the front to a final angle of 58-60 degrees. You can go as far up as 61, but somewhere above there it starts feeling weird.

Know that wedging like this changes your leverage over your bushings. You should be fine with the stock Randal bushings rear, however for the front you should probably invest in something squishier - I have found good results with Reflex bushings (at 180 lbs I use lime=80A).

What width are the hangers?

If they are 180mm they are a bit too wide for longer distance and uphill pumping - try flipping the wheels to simulate the feel of a 150mm hanger!

If the hangers are 150mm, try flipping only the rear wheels to simulate a 150mm front/125mm rear!

This will hopefully help you in deciding what width to choose for your next truck purchase.

The Bennet Vector is considered one of the best cast front trucks for pumping, and you won't regret ordering one. If nothing else, it will let you experience the huge difference between a TKP and an RKP front. Just remember to replace the stock kingpin! It is quite prone to snapping in half when you least want it to...

Once you have found a front truck you like, the next step would be installing a spherical. COM 6T 3/8" is what you need, should be less than $10 each. Adding a spherical is like going from softboots to hardboots - an absolute must for anyone looking for power and precision! Much less slop in the system, and less wear on the bushings too.

It's very simple - just drill out the kingpin hole with a conical drill bit and fasten the spherical with a good epoxy.

Just remember to be careful, LDP tinkering is very addictive!!

Hope this helps! :)

/Dan

Edited April 7, 2016 by permeated

[Corey]

I carefully considered everybody's advice and looked at all kinds of options. Then I put in some extra overtime and bought a Roe Racing Mermaid complete. LOL! I've learned it's better to get one specific tool for each job than trying to find one tool that does it all.

Now I just need to find/make some time to ride it!

[bobble]

I carefully considered everybody's advice and looked at all kinds of options. Then I put in some extra overtime and bought a Roe Racing Mermaid complete. LOL! I've learned it's better to get one specific tool for each job than trying to find one tool that does it all.

Now I just need to find/make some time to ride it!

 

cool! i have the triton.

 

did you buy yours from stokedskateboards?  i got road rash (see wheel bite thread). the stock setup has 1/4" risers which was not enough.

 

i swapped out the 1/4" risers with 1/2" risers and changed out the bushings. i have yet to ride it due to crappy weather and schedule. 

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

I carefully considered everybody's advice and looked at all kinds of options. Then I put in some extra overtime and bought a Roe Racing Mermaid complete. LOL! I've learned it's better to get one specific tool for each job than trying to find one tool that does it all.

Now I just need to find/make some time to ride it!

Cool!!     What's the setup (wheels/trucks/risers/bushings)?   

[BlueB]

I carefully considered everybody's advice and looked at all kinds of options. Then I put in some extra overtime and bought a Roe Racing Mermaid complete. LOL! I've learned it's better to get one specific tool for each job than trying to find one tool that does it all.

Now I just need to find/make some time to ride it!

It's worth nothing without pics :)

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[Corey]

I've done a few rides now with the new Roe Racing board.  Wow, this thing is markedly more efficient at pumping than my Loaded board!  Rough guess: it takes 30% less energy to move at the same speed.  

 

My recent ride involved dropping my car off for a safety inspection before selling it.  It's about 3 km (2 miles) from there to my workplace, so I just took a helmet and the Roe board to get back to work.  It would have been a nice ride but I didn't factor in the wind.  Head wind all the way to work.  Ugh...  Wow, that drew more attention than I ever expected!  I guess a 40-ish guy pumping in a button-up shirt/slacks/loafers/etc. and a skating helmet isn't something you see every day.  Haha, oh well.  I had a lot of people offering rides back to the shop at the end of the day, but I skated back instead as it was more fun!  

 

Regardless, it's amazing how much easier the Mermaid is to move.  I did have to change my pumping style a bit as I realized I used a lot of rear foot action on the Loaded, which didn't work at all with the dewedged rear truck on the Mermaid.  That took about 5 seconds to figure out.  The Loaded pumps away easier from a dead stop, but once moving the Mermaid kicks its butt in every way!  Fun!  I made a note of the start/end times, which let me figure out that I averaged around 6-7 mph with lots of stops at intersections.  I could go a lot faster but I limit myself to speeds I can run with the faint hope of reducing road rash.  

 

The board is almost exactly what spits out of the Stoked site: https://stokedskateboards.com/roeracing-longboard-mermaid-roe-racing-carbon-fiber-ldp.html

Bennet front with -15 Cindrich plate

Randal rear

Orangatang wheels, purple and orange

Changed to Kiro soft risers as I mostly ride on rough surfaces

Kiro wedge kit

 

I'm going to try wedging the front truck some more to see if it's better at the lower speeds I like.  

[pow4ever]

I should have stay away from bomber in the summer time.  Now I am hooked on another activity.

 

went for a mix push/pump setup; low deck height and minimized chance of "wheel/track/any sort" bite.

put in about 2-4 miles a day since 5/18 (when it didn't rain).  So much fun!!!

[Neil Gendzwill]

I've done a few rides now with the new Roe Racing board.  Wow, this thing is markedly more efficient at pumping than my Loaded board!  Rough guess: it takes 30% less energy to move at the same speed. 

 

The majority of that is probably the truck setup, not the deck.

[BlueB]

The majority of that is probably the truck setup, not the deck.

Exactly!

Corey, Bennett front doesn't work well past 15°. As the matter of fact, it's on its best between 10 and 12.

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[Corey]

Fair enough.  Classic experimental error - change a bunch of things and note improvement, but you don't know what drove the improvement.  

 

Pow4ever - looks nice!  

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Corey, with 'dialing in' things like wedges, bushings, wheel choices, bearing choices, add-on foot-stops or wedge foam (added concave and/or tail wedge), take things one, maybe two, at a time. The variables are vast, so having a handle on just what was changed is necessary for one's sanity.

I had earlier noted the 'racer's wedge kit' by Khiro, and that little box of plastic shims can change your life if you apply the right combo to your board.

I approve of your Roe set-up overall, with only the bearing (don't know what you've got... But, if you're on Pleasure Tools, it's good-to-go) and wheels being where I'd differ ( I Like Orangutans, but Black-Ops  Seismics are stickier).  I think you'll get a lot of good use outa this board!

 

About the Bennett wedging; The Cindrich baseplate is steeper by 15*, so it likely won't need a wedge kit, but may need risers.. [Note that you may actually want to reduce steering angle with wedges by 2-3*, so fat end forward]  But, what you want to look for is the axle's position in relation to the pivot point! If you were to draw a line from center-of-axle thru the pivot, it should be really close to perpendicular to the deck. You don't want that axle in front of the hanger's pivot! Directly atop it is o.k., or just a few MM behind, then the truck will have the counter-action of both bushings to keep it stable enough to return-to-center. However, if the axles leads that pivot, you leverage the hanger against mostly the top bushing, and 'The Wobbles' are a very likely occurance.

 

The original 'Gull-Wing HPG' trucks of the 70's had that exact problem, and once they started a wobble, were uncontrollable.

 

With the rear truck, the kingpin (since this is a reverse kingpin truck) should be more upright than the hanger, and can go as far as being perpendicular to the deck, depending on wedging. But don't take ALL the steering away. Having a bit of turning left is good for pumping. Also, having a 'snappy' rear bushing set will help. Nowadays, many 'longboard bushings' actually are 'damp', to keep the trucks from wobbling during slides. You want 'lively' bushings, regardless of durometer. So, give them the 'bounce test' to be sure. Reflex, Radikal, Khiros, all 'bounce' well, and have a quick return-to-center feel.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Eric Brammer aka PSR

[Mig]

Exactly!

Corey, Bennett front doesn't work well past 15°. As the matter of fact, it's on its best between 10 and 12.

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Never liked the Bennett front at more than 7° but that was for a slalom setup of course, not LDP.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I've got the Cinnett front truck with the 20° plates and wedged a little more.  Seem to work fine for LDP though I confess I have done no fiddling.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Neil Gendzwill

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Yeah, I should point out that while LDP riding can easily have you cruising in the upper 20's, you aren't dodging those meddlesome plastic cones at that speed.  Also, you have a longer wheelbase and more foot-placement options. So, with all of that, my warning of  'oversteering' a Bennett might not be as dire as my experiences with that style of truck have been. I guess it'll have to be something that the individual rider feel/figure-out for themselves. Obviously, Neil is comfortable with them 'as is'...(speaking of which, what bushings do ya got in there, Neil?)

But, running them too 'twitchy' may not be in your best interest.

[Mig]

Yeah, I should point out that while LDP riding can easily have you cruising in the upper 20's, you aren't dodging those meddlesome plastic cones at that speed.

I have not been closely following the LDP scene. But if the average LDPers are really EASILY CRUISING in the upper 20's on flat ground than they are superhumans to me and I tip my hat to them. The few slalom races that I have been to that had actual police radars on site, the top speed has never exceeded that. Antrim, as an example, has had one of those radars on hill for every single edition. Top speed has never exceeded 28mph in any of the races there (TS, HS or even GS) through all the years. Average speeds of the fastest racers usually staying in between 24 and 26 mph, depending on course layout and wind conditions. That's mid-20's pumping DOWN a pretty good hill, by world championship class racers. So anyone easily cruising the flats in the upper 20's is a beast at pumping for sure!

One thing I do know though, is that all of us skateboarders have a tendency to bump up our speed evaluations when we go by "feeling". And I am the first one to be guilty of this. :)