Advantages of hardboot snowboarding?

[Rob Stevens]

Oh yeah... If the "name change" thread is going to be locked, you might as well un-pin it.

As far as I'm concerned and for what it's worth, I think you miss a "conversion" opportunity by calling it a "hardbooting" forum. If I like the feeling of a carve, so I search for it on Internetz, I won't see you... and even if I saw you, I might not know what you were promoting, as "hardbooitng" could be anything, to the uninitiated.

If I came across something speaking to carving, regardless of the interface, I'd start reading and, likely at a point, compare it to what I do. If I were in softboots, I'd probably take notice of your hardboots and maybe try it out.

If one goal of the Bomber business is to get riders into it, so you can sell gear, the riding population you're drawing from is almost all in SB's. As a softbooter, I'm more apt to look at something talking about "carving", that something talking about "hardboots", as, again, I might not even know WTF that is.

[Beckmann AG]

 

For me the dream has always been to find the perfect marriage between the power and precision of hard boots with the mobility and flow of softboots.  

 

Since we are on a plate binding website and many here love hardboots ... I often dream of a new All Mountain plate binding that finds a balance between the low angle mobility of the F2Carve RS and the well thought out design and precision of the TD Sidewider.  I am guessing I am not alone!

 

My Fingers are Crossed:)

Rob 

Consider that the roll axis of the skate board is below the feet, but down the midline of the deck. The rider clearly has the mechanical advantage, and the movements/mobility of the knees/ankles/hips are not compromised. This is a far cry from a board with either hard or soft boots on the pack, where the roll axis is at or very close to the respective working edge. Both footwear choices must account for the leverage involved, by way of structure/support. Given that most hardboots are used at angles that favor the 'weak' axis of the foot, they tend to be stiff, and as such, can easily translate too much input. 

Such as in powder/deep slush etc, where the board tilts in a manner similar to the skate deck.

Softboots, used closer to the 'strong' axis of the foot, can be a little more squishy and therefore function better in conditions where 'give' in the snow is close to the 'give' of the boot.  

 

 

Don't waste too much time at the wishing well on that binding quest.  Dream about a better boot.

Again with regard to roll axes, a binding that flexes will negate much of the accuracy inherent to articulation of the ankle joint as a source of input, moving inputs further up the kinetic chain to larger, stronger, and 'dumber' limb sections/muscle groups. The foot in soft boots will tend to move within the boot, as well as moving the boot itself atop the binding. (much like the skater's sneakers in the linked video) This is more 'input accurate' than the typical hard boot on a SW, where the pivot is well below the boot sole, and the plastic binding, where the pivot, though virtual, is still well below the boot sole and ankle structure.

Ergo, in circumstances where leverage isn't an issue, such as deep/soft snow, the soft boot will almost always have the edge in terms of finesse. There are exceptions, particularly off to either end of the stance configuration spectrum.

Or in other, 'Special' cases.

 

 

I could never handle hardboots in powder... I tried to like it, but with no support under the edge, I'd sink when powering, and sink when powering by mistake. The middle ground, where I really had to think about pressuring very accurately, was just too much to concentrate on.

 In hardboots, I would have just fallen over, as the first twitch would have gone straight to the unsupported edge.

Sometimes, a lack of precision is as good as millimeter perfect.

Both posts cite precision. Which is precisely the problem when what you really need is accuracy. Accurate movements channeled through a stiff boot will succeed, whereas precise movements may not.

On the surface, it may appear to be splitting hairs. It's a subtle, but significant difference.

Re: power. It's again a matter of too much input for the job at hand. As the saying goes, "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Riding powder isn't about power, it's about finesse. Finesse, in turn, is just enough, and no more. Softer boots and flexy bindings serve to filter out the extra.

[Beckmann AG]

Oh yeah... If the "name change" thread is going to be locked, you might as well un-pin it.

As far as I'm concerned and for what it's worth, I think you miss a "conversion" opportunity by calling it a "hardbooting" forum. If I like the feeling of a carve, so I search for it on Internetz, I won't see you... and even if I saw you, I might not know what you were promoting, as "hardbooitng" could be anything, to the uninitiated.

If I came across something speaking to carving, regardless of the interface, I'd start reading and, likely at a point, compare it to what I do. If I were in softboots, I'd probably take notice of your hardboots and maybe try it out.

If one goal of the Bomber business is to get riders into it, so you can sell gear, the riding population you're drawing from is almost all in SB's. As a softbooter, I'm more apt to look at something talking about "carving", that something talking about "hardboots", as, again, I might not even know WTF that is.

+π

[Neil Gendzwill]

Both posts cite precision. Which is precisely the problem when what you really need is accuracy. Accurate movements channeled through a stiff boot will succeed, whereas precise movements may not.

On the surface, it may appear to be splitting hairs. It's a subtle, but significant difference.

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Accuracy is how close we get to the desired goal. Precision is how consistently we do it. Both are desirable.

[RCrobar]

Hello Mr Beckman

 

As always, I enjoy reading your thoughts ... even though I don't always agree with 'all' of them:)

 

The goal of the skateboard video was to 'perhaps' illustrate to a hardboot only guy a bit of an idea why a rider 'might' not to always want have the power of hard boots if it restricts a desired movement or makes a movement too powerful; a bit of understanding and empathy goes a long way.  The mobility of the skateboarder in the video is 'similar' to that of a surfer or a softboot snowboarder, ideally illustrating the movement.

 

If this was a web site that manufactured hartboots, I'd be lobbying for new boots as well.  Considering our current boot manufacturing situation, this truly does feel futile.  The VERY cool thing about the Bomber web site is that I know the owners before and now read the riders' feedback.  We as a group of forum members have the ability to 'possibly' influence the direction of new products, the sidewinder is a perfect example of this.  You just never know what ideas may be sparked by a comment, picture or a skateboard video in the forum.

 

IMHO if a hardboot is solid enough to support the current spring systems, that can be adjusted to a riders preference and is primarily responsible for the ankle movement heel to toe, was combined with a Sidewinder, Emery Surf, F2CarveRS type binding that was capable of controlling both the amount and stiffness of the lateral boot movement ... a rider would have more control in setting up his boot binding range of motion to his or her liking.  This is my wish list, my dream, no raining on my parade:)

 

The search for board, boot, binding Nirvana never ends, in a way I am glad that it doesn't as at least half the fun is the search.

 

Cheers Mr B

Rob

Edited April 4, 2016 by RCrobar

[lordmetroland]

As far as I'm concerned and for what it's worth, I think you miss a "conversion" opportunity by calling it a "hardbooting" forum.

 

I almost wrote this exact same post, but dumber sounding. Well said.

[rjnakata]

Oh yeah... If the "name change" thread is going to be locked, you might as well un-pin it.

As far as I'm concerned and for what it's worth, I think you miss a "conversion" opportunity by calling it a "hardbooting" forum. If I like the feeling of a carve, so I search for it on Internetz, I won't see you... and even if I saw you, I might not know what you were promoting, as "hardbooitng" could be anything, to the uninitiated.

If I came across something speaking to carving, regardless of the interface, I'd start reading and, likely at a point, compare it to what I do. If I were in softboots, I'd probably take notice of your hardboots and maybe try it out.

If one goal of the Bomber business is to get riders into it, so you can sell gear, the riding population you're drawing from is almost all in SB's. As a softbooter, I'm more apt to look at something talking about "carving", that something talking about "hardboots", as, again, I might not even know WTF that is.

 

 

I almost wrote this exact same post, but dumber sounding. Well said.

 

I didn't write that post, but wish I had.

It's not the shoes.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Funny, because, I have that 'magic' softboot binding. I've been using it a bit, too. Even left my board, with said binding, at the ECES tent (set up regular, too!) for anyone to try. Showed it to Jim, and explained that as a 'strap kit', it could fit many existing bindings. 

 

But...

 

The tongues came from a binding that's been 'extinct' for 23 years,,,

 

Oh well, thought I'd at least let ya'll know it did, once, exist.

 

Hard Boots! Yeah, that's where, for whatever reason, no one seems to want to innovate anymore. When, if, that happens, I hope the designers keep the 'best of' features we have now, but find a way to also include a better flex range, and a sole that can be walked with in the winter!

 

Meanwhile, many softboots aimed at the split-board crowd are getting really nicely stiff, so, there is a ray of hope there. But, I don't foresee anyone using a 'softshell' effectively up past 40* of angle, ever.

[Jack M]

Oh yeah... If the "name change" thread is going to be locked, you might as well un-pin it.

As far as I'm concerned and for what it's worth, I think you miss a "conversion" opportunity by calling it a "hardbooting" forum. If I like the feeling of a carve, so I search for it on Internetz, I won't see you... and even if I saw you, I might not know what you were promoting, as "hardbooitng" could be anything, to the uninitiated.

If I came across something speaking to carving, regardless of the interface, I'd start reading and, likely at a point, compare it to what I do. If I were in softboots, I'd probably take notice of your hardboots and maybe try it out.

If one goal of the Bomber business is to get riders into it, so you can sell gear, the riding population you're drawing from is almost all in SB's. As a softbooter, I'm more apt to look at something talking about "carving", that something talking about "hardboots", as, again, I might not even know WTF that is.

This.

[Jack M]

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Accuracy is how close we get to the desired goal. Precision is how consistently we do it. Both are desirable.

Accuracy is correctness. Precision is exactness. For example I have a thermometer on my snowboarding jacket. It is accurate in that the red liquid goes up the tube the correct distance, but it is not precise because it only has markings every 5 degrees.  How consistently it gives the same reading doesn't say anything about its precision.  A thermometer with markings every 1 degree would be more precise, but it may or may not be accurate.

[Rob Stevens]

It's like this... Tipping the board over in HB's needed a move pretty far up the body. At least at the knees. Tipping the board over in SB's could be done at the ankle. The less I needed to move, the less chance I had of being thrown off.

It is likely that I will never powsurf / noboard in my Raichle's, as the power would corrupt the slashy.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Accuracy is correctness. Precision is exactness. For example I have a thermometer on my snowboarding jacket. It is accurate in that the red liquid goes up the tube the correct distance, but it is not precise because it only has markings every 5 degrees.  How consistently it gives the same reading doesn't say anything about its precision.  A thermometer with markings every 1 degree would be more precise, but it may or may not be accurate.

You are accurate on accuracy but not on precision :).  Precision is how consistently we can get the same result.  You can google any number of variants on the definitions but this one is pretty concise.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Ah, but Nothing is Absolute; Absolutely Nothing!

 

Oh, and, in Geometry, the Quigley Theorem states 'That Between Two Legs, there is Always an Angle', and that's been proven!

[Beckmann AG]

Hello Mr Beckman

 

As always, I enjoy reading your thoughts ... even though I don't always agree with 'all' of them:)

 

The goal of the skateboard video was to 'perhaps' illustrate to a hardboot only guy a bit of an idea why a rider 'might' not to always want have the power of hard boots if it restricts a desired movement or makes a movement too powerful; a bit of understanding and empathy goes a long way.  The mobility of the skateboarder in the video is 'similar' to that of a surfer or a softboot snowboarder, ideally illustrating the movement.

 

If this was a web site that manufactured hartboots, I'd be lobbying for new boots as well.  Considering our current boot manufacturing situation, this truly does feel futile.  The VERY cool thing about the Bomber web site is that I know the owners before and now read the riders' feedback.  We as a group of forum members have the ability to 'possibly' influence the direction of new products, the sidewinder is a perfect example of this.  You just never know what ideas may be sparked by a comment, picture or a skateboard video in the forum.

Glad to be of service. 

 

Surfing, skating, and to some extent, soft booting allow for balancing in a more intuitive manner than hard booting.

So when it comes to the advantages/disadvantages of one boot over the other, it’s fairly obvious that, at least with regard to how one achieves and maintains balance, soft boots have the greater number of advantages for the greater number of people.

 

I appreciate your points, as well as the video.  The latter demonstrates how a mechanical system that works either in, or close to harmony with the body, will deliver a flowing and ‘pleasing’ performance. (When more hardbooters ride with that kind of grace, more of the public will take notice.)

 

A good counter-example is Laird Hamilton on the foil. By comparison to his usual, the foil riding looks a bit ‘contrived’. Some of this is his need to accommodate two roll axes: One at his feet, and the other several feet down, below the waterline.

 

 

The distance from axis to axis is significantly greater than on the SW or F2, but the principle is the same.

 

I understand the quest for a 'better' binding, as that appears to be the easiest component to ‘engineer’ toward your particular end. In purely mechanical/biomechanical terms, though, it’s not going to deliver what you want. 

It’s a simple matter of balancing intuitively, or balancing by learned movements.

You may get close, but still no cigar.

 

A new hope for better boots might seem futile. Accepting that futility while denying the mechanical principles that govern our movement over snow simply delays innovation.

A manufacturer, be it Bomber, or LibTech, can develop products that enhance an athlete’s current practice, or products that leverage their talent beyond the status quo.

 

The former is the safer bet. Thus Magna-Traction and the Sidewinder. 

 

This site could be a means of developing better products that eventually draw more participants, thereby moving the sport forward.  That involves active listening, not just to gather support for one’s position, but to have that position challenged, and so doing, experience growth.

 

When the average rider can manipulate an alpine board with the facility of their soft boot setup, you can bet their wallet will be closer to seeing the light of day.

 

 

Don’t think of it as rain, but a forecast. Whether or not you choose to carry an umbrella and stay dry is up to you.

[Beckmann AG]

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Accuracy is how close we get to the desired goal. Precision is how consistently we do it. Both are desirable.

 

 Good effort, but I find it inconceivable that you wouldn’t see the obvious connection between the post and your very own citation.

 

“A good analogy for understanding accuracy and precision is to imagine a basketball player shooting baskets. If the player shoots with accuracy, his aim will always take the ball close to or into the basket. If the player shoots with precision, his aim will always take the ball to the same location which may or may not be close to the basket. A good player will be both accurate and precise by shooting the ball the same way each time and each time making it in the basket. “

On a daily basis, I see skiers and snowboarders practicing their precise, but inaccurate movements. 

 

And then the Visine.

 

If you develop accuracy on hardboots, the precision will follow. Not so much the other way ‘round.

 

So:  “Bishop to king seven. Checkmate, I think…”

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you develop accuracy on hardboots, the precision will follow. Not so much the other way ‘round.

I'd argue the opposite. You can be accurate without being precise, it's a statistical thing. If I use too much inclination one turn and too little on the next, I am accurate if they average out to close to the right inclination. However I am probably clueless on exactly what I need to do to fix it. If however I always have too little inclination (precision but no accuracy) someone can say: "hey Neil, more inclination" and I can probably fix it.

So that goes to soft boots which are imprecise compared to hardboots. If my feet are moving around in the boots and the boots are moving around in the bindings, how can I trust that my inputs are consistently applied to the edge? If the inputs produce inconsistent outputs I will have no precision. Accuracy without precision is useless: you are still wrong most of the time.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Neil Gendzwill

[Beckmann AG]

I'd argue the opposite. You can be accurate without being precise, it's a statistical thing. 

 

Rephrasing isn't argument. "you can be accurate without being precise" is the implication of "If you develop accuracy on hardboots, the precision will follow."

 

Statistical implications notwithstanding, I'd prefer to first hit the target, and then work on my grouping. If you prefer the opposite, then go for it.

Kindly report back with your findings.

 

 

 Accuracy without precision is useless: you are still wrong most of the time.

Did you not read your own link? (my italics)

 

"If the player shoots with accuracy, his aim will always take the ball close to or into the basket. If the player shoots with precision, his aim will always take the ball to the same location which may or may not be close to the basket."

 

Is this an argument, or just contradiction?

Edited April 5, 2016 by Beckmann AG

[Jack M]

You are accurate on accuracy but not on precision :).  Precision is how consistently we can get the same result.  You can google any number of variants on the definitions but this one is pretty concise.

 

Nerdfight!  It's both.  A thermometer with 0.1 degree readings is more precise than a thermometer with 1 degree readings.  A thermometer with 0.01 degree readings is even more precise.  But if the readings are inconsistent by a wide margin, it's neither accurate nor precise.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

BINGO!  Thank You , Jack!!

 

One of the fun things in my work as a Machinist has been finding the 'root cause' when things go South. The predictable path is that the Op blames the machine, or process, or Engineer. Yet, it's their inputs to said machine, that usually cause an error. It's not always this way, but to have the "think before you crash" mentality does help.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Nerdfight! It's both. A thermometer with 0.1 degree readings is more precise than a thermometer with 1 degree readings. A thermometer with 0.01 degree readings is even more precise. But if the readings are inconsistent by a wide margin, it's neither accurate nor precise.

0.01 readings are only more precise if they are consistent. Your 1 degree thermometer could well be more precise than your 0.01 degree thermometer. My bathroom scale supposedly measures to the nearest 0.2 lbs but it is nowhere near that precise in reality. Accuracy is the difference between the mean of a set of measurements and the actual. Precision is the deviation from the mean. When most people say "accurate", they generally mean both precise and accurate. Edited April 5, 2016 by Neil Gendzwill

[Chouinard]

From: iSixSigma

Precision

Lack of variation in your measurement. Can be measured in terms of the standard deviation of your measurement system. Has nothing to do with accuracy, which is lack of bias. A precise rifle will shoot small groups. An accurate rifle is properly sighted in.

[jng]

Nerdfight!  It's both.  A thermometer with 0.1 degree readings is more precise than a thermometer with 1 degree readings.  A thermometer with 0.01 degree readings is even more precise.  But if the readings are inconsistent by a wide margin, it's neither accurate nor precise.

 

I think there is a little confusion about the terms resolution and precision.

 

A thermometer with 0.01 degree readings has higher resolution than one with 0.1 degree readings.  However, a thermometer with higher resolution is not necessarily more precise.  I.e., just adding finer resolution markings on a thermometer does not make it more precise.

 

http://en-us.fluke.com/training/training-library/test-tools/digital-multimeters/accuracy-resolution-range-counts-digits-and-precision.html

[lordmetroland]

Seriously, the whole "why is the carving community so small" question is totally baffling...

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

...until one reads inane posts like the many above, then they RUN AWAY!!  Why?  Well, you've got over-educated loonies telling you you're not quite riding right, but from a bunch of narrow POV's...

 

I've seen it all, rode most of it (within the limits of my aging carcass, that is).  

 

Snowboarding should be a sport that embraces purists and adventurers alike with open arms. Like it's cousins of Skiing and Skateboarding, it has many, many disciplines, some of which haven't even been truly defined. [skateboarding, btw, has more 'true' defined disciplines than any other sport i know of, save "swimming" IF you included all diving, and games inclusive. Snowboarding is Skateboarding's bastard child, and that shows!]  So, we need to make a little room for those 'other' thoughts and approaches to sliding sideways/diagonal/on-edge/and Down the hill, and do so, a bit, HERE.

 

So, as I've found on other sites, I do need to SHUT UP, or at least Bite My Keyboard/Tongue at times. And, keep an open mind as to how this All Works, with an eye on the next thing that's Good that we can do.

 

So, back to the original premise;  

 

I can kick the angry dude at the bar in the balls really hard with these boots!

Edited April 5, 2016 by Eric Brammer aka PSR

[RCrobar]

Hey Mr B

 

I'll take one of those cigars!

 

Admittedly, if we were able to get a newly designed boot-binding that had the roll-axes exactly where it should be, it would be a beautiful thing.  I fear that I'll never see this product in my lifetime, which is truly a bummer.  I would love to be proven wrong, however!

 

At the same time I have seen enough at Bomber over the years to believe that a new binding is always a possibility; is it not possible to improve upon the existing Sidewinder?  I wonder what is next?  For these reasons will gladly take getting as close as possible and consider myself and the community lucky! 

 

I have been a hardbooter for many years, but also a skater.  I agree that hardboots have a lot of advantages, besides kicking:), but I also think we can learn a lot from the skater in the video and some of the softboot carving guys; particularly for all mountain riding.  Just for fun, check out the flow of the turns from this softboot carver!  Pretty nice turns no matter what he has on your feet!

 

 

Thank you for sharing your ideas.

Cheers

Rob

Edited April 5, 2016 by RCrobar