Who rides the "Pureboarding" style

[Surf Quebec]

I wonder if that thread will end up in more Pureboarding board sales.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Surf Quebec

[snowmatic]

As for the counter rotation, as much as it is a bad thing for the beginners, it is necessity for certain situations. Like very tight moguls, or very tight slalom turns - you simply do not have time to pre-rotate or even just follow with the body.

For moguls thats not the way to go! According to The Rider System it looks maybe like a counter rotation before a turn. But turns are rotational in moguls too. It's evident for not loose control of speed.

Anyone who like to try it out, can do it next Monday when Dual Moguls of Freestyle-World-Ski-Championships at Kreischberg (Austria) is over.

Maybe you have a local mogul course race the next days at your favorite mountain. Don't miss to enter that course with your Alpine snowboard if race had been closed. It's a great experience which makes fun. Take a narrow board for that. Pro-skiers left very thight furrows between moguls.

Even in January 2019 Park-City (USA) holds Freestyle-World-Ski-Championships too (and Snowboarding-Worldchampionships!). So go there. Watch snowboarding and the days after go to that moguls with your board.

[Bobby Buggs]

Ok Im back from an interesting day. First off its quite humbling going from an accomplished angulation style rider to a beginner. This is the shortest and widest board I have been on and the lowest back foot angle since 2000. But using the techniques I didnt notice the equipment really at all once moving.

The whole Toeside - 70% weight on back foot toes,  Heelside - 70% weight on front foot heel is True, 70% might actually be low. First run I found this out quickly, to get the board to react you really needed to, coming from my style,  Overweight one foot at a time. When I did it the board hooked up and reacted well.  Heelsides were a bit unnerving standing with all my weight on my front foot after the rotation but the board held nicely. The one thing I found unique to these rotation styles was the front side hip movements. On Heelside Not only did I need to get that hip rotated around as far as my limited flex would allow but also had to move it backward, if you will. NOT to be confused with shifting my weight back. I was having a tuff time communicating from my brain to my front hip so I took 4 runs on the bunny hill just trying to get front foot weighted, Front hip rotated open and then back but I finally felt it.  I believe that hip open and back is the foundation of that statue EC pose I see from those French riders. I could see from that position how they make some of those killer heelsides. Now Im kinda Pissed at my self cause I have had a bunch of days hanging out and riding with Joerg but didnt try to emulate his style. We never really talk technique when Im with him we just ride around and laugh a ton.

So after day 1 I did learn a few things that I used for the last couple runs on my Coiler All mountain, Had to give the kid some candy after his lesson . My legs were toast especially my front one. I can see how this style can be useful and a nice divergence from the strict angulation style that I have spent the past 10 years  locking in.

I hope I can get out again in the next week and have a nice break through perhaps toss a couple EC turns in to the mix.

 

Oh and to the Counter rotation discussion, I can ride bumps like a mad man using that style with very little upper body movement. I rode like that for years before I turned my feet up to + 50s and learned how a side cut was supposed to work. I never lost that skill and used it for 3 days in the bumps and bowls at Snowbird just a month ago. It was a good thing I had that in my bag of tricks or it would have been a difficult and potentially dangerous trip. I actually look forward to spring corn riding and use it 80% of the time in the spring.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Bobby Buggs

[Beckmann AG]

Re: Counter-rotation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

When you want your board to make a turn (especially a drifted turn), you need to transmit torque to it.

You might want to, but you don't always have to, and most often don't need to.  The apparent need to 'turn' a board through this kind of input is what usually stands between a novice/intermediate and their further progress in the sport.  (The same can be said of alpine skiing. E.G., the current emphasis on femoral rotation as a means of steering.)

 

As BlueB suggests above, counter-rotation by way of selective isolation of body segments is very useful in a number of situations.

However, it's the means by which the upper and lower body parts come into counter that may lead to confusion.

 

At the lower skill level,  counter develops unintentionally, on the heel side on account of standing with too much weight on the front foot, (where the board quickly pivots under the upper body while turning on the snow),and on the toeside on account of trying to face down the hill as all good skiers should. (Read italix with sarcasm). In these situations, it is the inability to isolate the upper and lower body parts that leads to a countered/'open' posture.

It's not so much that the action itself is intuitive, it's that it takes place as a byproduct of where one decides to stand on the board at a particular moment in time.  This input then leads to compensatory movements/postures in an attempt to stabilize oneself.

 

(That a rider 'sits' into the heel side turn is a result of trying to gain stability by way of increasing edge tilt.)

 

In this image, the board is riding the rider.  The rider will bail out shortly to the toeside edge, having run out of options to continue this arc.

 

Rotation, on the other hand, is intuitive, largely because we become accustomed to anchoring, pivoting, and pushing off through many of our 'dry land' activities.

 

As a rider/skier develops their skill base, their ability to utilize rebound, and the selective isolation of their upper and lower body masses, counter/counter-rotation can be used as a means of damping/halting the rotation of the lower body and the duration of arc, as well as a means of hastening the initiation of the turn in the other direction.  

This is most useful on turns of short radius/duration, but that is not to say that one might not want to employ counter at some point on a longer turn radius.

 

In EC, rotation is simply another means of steering/counter-steering the board to it's edge.  It's anchor driven, but so long as the anchors (at initiation of rotation, as well as conclusion) are secure, it's quite effective.

 

 

 

 According to The Rider System it looks maybe like a counter rotation before a turn. But turns are rotational in moguls too.

'Educational' institutions tend to view cause and effect through the lens of their own particular philosophies.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Beckmann AG

[BlueB]

For moguls thats not the way to go! According to The Rider System it looks maybe like a counter rotation before a turn. But turns are rotational in moguls too. It's evident for not loose control of speed.

There are many more national ski school systems, besides the Swiss. There are more techniques then ski schools teach. 

Even in January 2019 Park-City (USA) holds Freestyle-World-Ski-Championships too (and Snowboarding-Worldchampionships!). So go there. Watch snowboarding and the days after go to that moguls with your board.

No need to wait that long. We have an Olympic spec mogul field and plenty of steeps with natural moguls, right here at Cypress ;) 

All we need now is some snow :( 

[snowboardfast]

The Pureboarding group is getting lots of people to show up and try alpine snowboarding at the clinics they are doing in Europe. I talked to Ray a couple of weeks ago and he told me this. Ray is one of the riders here in the usa that sells Pureboarding boards and does the clinics with Joerg.. I am going to try and show up this year at SES and demo a Pureboarding board and have fun. I think this concept will help grow the sport of Alpine snowboarding. I would like to buy a Pureboarding board used but you never see them up for sale. You see lots of raceboards up for sale on this forum and ebay. no Pureboarding boards for sale on ebay in Europe either. Must be a good product! Of course the race boards for sale are good as well. I guess I will have to buy a Pureboarding board new if I decide I would want one.

[b.free]

Nothing is better than sport boards!

[Aracan]

I may have oversimplified things a bit. I blame lordmetroland ;-) since he originally asked about counter-rotation and I found it easiest to explain in contrast to its opposite.

 

As to this, BlueB:

 

 

You do not necessarily need the "turning moment", even for a drifted (sliding) turn. Put the board on the edge, weigh the nose more then the tail through the beginning and middle of the turn - the board will drift.

 

I am, alas, no physicist. But are we certain that no torque is being generated by the actions you describe? More to the point, how will the board start to drift with a weighted nose, without sideways input from the rear leg?

 

As described above, a standard PB heelside turn has the board tilted on edge, more weight on the front leg - but no drifting. Why not?

[KingCrimson]

Just like there are many ways to balance yourself in a skid, you don't have to have a given weight distribution in a carve.

Standing on your front leg at the end of a turn is a great way to run out of options and spin out, but its perfectly feasible in the fall line.

Also, the turning moment of the board doesn't have to be a fixed location. There's a great multiple exposure overlay of bordy drifting around a gate on a first Gen Kessler that shows a progressive angle of attack through the turn.

Edited January 16, 2015 by KingCrimson

[Bobby Buggs]

Oh and shame on me for not saying thank you to Mark Bennett from Berkshire East. He spent a few hours with me and was on point with his instruction. If you want to try Pureboards in Mass check out Berkshire east http://www.berkshireeast.com/

[Aracan]

 

 

I would like to buy a Pureboarding board used but you never see them up for sale. You see lots of raceboards up for sale on this forum and ebay. no Pureboarding boards for sale on ebay in Europe either. Must be a good product! Of course the race boards for sale are good as well.

Over the past four years, I have seen a total of one or two PB boards in forum Classifieds (here and the German forum) and on ebay.

 

Another one was privately offered to me through a forum. That was it.

 

Seems those who buy one hang on to it (as I intend to hang on to mine).

[Bobby Buggs]

Well I dont know exactly  why but the boards Work when you apply the technique to them. 

[lafcadio]

Yeah, I bought mine used from one of Joerg's instructors a few years ago before I finally got a new one last year.  I'm not letting either go.  I like having a beat up one for early season use that I don't have to worry about.  Which reminds me... time to get the good board out for tomorrow!!! 

 

That said... you can probably get a similar feeling board if you look at a soft-medium flexing all mountain board in the 158-168 length, that is wide enough (21-23) for the lower rear binding angles.   

[iLikeSnow]

Yeah, I bought mine used from one of Joerg's instructors a few years ago before I finally got a new one last year.  I'm not letting either go.  I like having a beat up one for early season use that I don't have to worry about.  Which reminds me... time to get the good board out for tomorrow!!! 

 

That said... you can probably get a similar feeling board if you look at a soft-medium flexing all mountain board in the 158-168 length, that is wide enough (21-23) for the lower rear binding angles.   

That makes me think you have been to at least one their sessions.

 

Is it, as i imagine, Voodoo Priest Board Gurus dancing around you during a snowstorm until you magically hold edge and feel the urge to buy pureboarding equipment?

Their stuff is certainly great, but the promotional material i found look more like a religion than a brand haha

[Bobby Buggs]

I have yet to see anyone either during the clinics or even free riding try to sell gear or offer the chance to follow any cults.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Bobby Buggs

[lafcadio]

That makes me think you have been to at least one their sessions.

 

I've been to the clinics at  SES and ECES, and the few times a year Joerg manages to come to the East Coast for clinics.  I haven't had the chance to get to Europe yet.  I was supposed to be at Wolkenstein in December, but it was canceled last minute due to lack of snow. :-(

[dingbat]

 

 

Is it, as i imagine, Voodoo Priest Board Gurus dancing around you during a snowstorm until you magically hold edge and feel the urge to buy pureboarding equipment?

Their stuff is certainly great, but the promotional material i found look more like a religion than a brand haha

 

 

You forgot the secret handshakes, naked virgins, and ritual sacrifice, but otherwise yes, it is exactly like that.

[KingCrimson]

That makes me think you have been to at least one their sessions.

Is it, as i imagine, Voodoo Priest Board Gurus dancing around you during a snowstorm until you magically hold edge and feel the urge to buy pureboarding equipment?

Their stuff is certainly great, but the promotional material i found look more like a religion than a brand haha

Still not as dogmatic as the other marketer of boards meant for a specific riding style. :P

[snowmatic]

I would like to buy a Pureboarding board used but you never see them up for sale / no Pureboarding boards for sale on ebay in Europe either

There are a couple of boards in Europe for sure, each Year. Prices are around $150 to $200.

Don't touch them. Near to every Pureboarding board I saw used for sale had been worn out, on thin base and thin edge.

Pureboarding boards comes out of cheap Elan Ski and Snowboard mass production factory (for boards it is now Capita mfg). You can not compare quality (poor quality of wood, steel for edge and so on) to what leading makers use for producing snowboards.

Even because of less snow and more artifical snow in Europe wearing-out becomes a significant thing (harder slopes, sometimes more stones, more edge and base tuning needed and so on).

Good companies, which stands for high quality, have knowledge about whats going on with slopes. Look at Kessler, he takes care about changes on the structure of snow on slopes. He builds his products to the demand of this changes. That's one of the secrets, why Kessler is ahead.

many more national ski school systems, besides the Swiss. There are more techniques then ski schools teach.

Rider-System is a pure snowboard school system, no skis! As I wrote, Pureboarding is based on that, but a small slice of it!

Their stuff is certainly great, but the promotional material i found look more like a religion than a brand

Yes, You aren't wrong! The Guru and his follower. And he play and pray it brilliant. Edited January 16, 2015 by snowmatic

[softbootsurfer]

       

Edited January 17, 2015 by softbootsailer

[Beckmann AG]

No worries on your English, Aracan; your writing is all nifty and stuff. :)

 

 

More to the point, how will the board start to drift with a weighted nose, without sideways input from the rear leg?

 

 

If the front end of the gliding board bends more than the back end, (either due to pressure distribution, or, if the board is twisted to the extreme) the back end (tail) cannot follow the path of the front end, and thus, drifts sideways (I.e, tangential to the orc).

 

 

[snowboardfast]

So Snowmatic you are saying that the Pureboarding boards are poor quality? The earlier models according to the Carvers Almanac were made by Kessler. the ad on this website says that the boards are being made by euopean craftsman who know how to build high quality carving boards.Can't say that you are wrong as I would not know. I looked at a Kessler boarder cross board and have wondered how it would work with hardboots for  all mountain riding.on mostly packed snow conditions. If there is a lot of powder I would be riding my Dupraz d1. Would the  it be hard on the Kessler board to ride it in moguls because of the metal construction or not? I only ride in moguls that are easy to ride not close tight big ones.

[snowmatic]

snowboardfast: saying that the Pureboarding boards are poor quality?

I wouldn't say that, but they are not on high Quality. Elan factory, now Capita mfg are talking for sure they have "high quality", even if quality can not reach at all any other European board builders. "Elan-made" is a good choice if you like to earn more money for each board you sell. As I wrote above, they don't have/use best materials. Saw up a core of a Kessler and than a Pureboard. You will see the difference.

Only the asymmetrical Pureboard #One was made by Kessler.

Good to know about the quality of Pureboarding's Elan factory: Nitro was comming out of that factory too and poor quality of Nitro snowboards was a never ending discusion on snowboarder forums worldwide. Now Nitro switched then to Taiwan, no Q-discussions anymore. Same to Capita snowboards. Capita's are still made by that factory (Capita mfg Furnitz Austria). Discussions and issues about lack of quality on 2014/2015 boards are still going on. Even after first day of use, you can have incredible issues. Capita customer service deny and put back many warranty asks.

Kessler The Cross is a board for to ride on high speed with softboots, at an excellent running silence. I mean speed on straight down, like on SBX courses. Test ride Kessler The Cross before You buy it. It's not best choice for beginners or leisure time riders.

hachis: SWOARD are comming in red AND in black ....... EC >>> RED EC PRO >>> BLACK

Thanks, so that must be a EC PRO. Didn't found any information about how they should be ridden. Did they need that special and new to me kind of carving-style like on picture?

Hilux: That carver you are referring to in the first photo IS Pureboarding...Joerg

I don't know and I don't think so.

That rider was riding a kind like of lame carving turns on his runs. Even he choose every time the most boring part of slope for to carve. Good carvers don't do that. You know, there over in the Alpes good carvers choose every time the most challenge part of a slope, which gives back way more fun on a raceboard.

If You watch photo again,

upper-body is realy wrong on his turn. He wouldn't be able to carve tricky parts of slopes on this way. As I wrote on my post, experienced raceboarders do there much more spectacular turns.

Beside this, the clothing was similar, but not the same like on picture from You. And that yellow boots looks ugly to the colorway of clothing too, it's a no-go. You know here in Europe we keep care about what we wear. We live (and carve) on a fashionable and trendsetting way. There is Paris (France) and Milano (Italy), which help us to keep close to the newest silhouette. A silhouette which is driven by elegance.

Edited January 17, 2015 by snowmatic

[Aracan]

If the front end of the gliding board bends more than the back end, (either due to pressure distribution, or, if the board is twisted to the extreme) the back end (tail) cannot follow the path of the front end, and thus, drifts sideways (I.e, tangential to the arc).

Thank you for clearing that up.

When I replied to lordmetroland's question, I was thinking about ways of initiating turns intentionally. What you have just described is a wash-out, isn't it?

[Beckmann AG]

 What you have just described is a wash-out, isn't it?

If the tail begins to overtake the tip, to the detriment of glide, then yes.

 

Otherwise, intentional overloading the tip to the point of breaking free the tail is just another means of adjusting line.

Or as some might say, 'steering'.

 

That is assuming the rider has the wherewithal to regain grip post-drift. 

Think 'Scandinavian Flick' in WRC.

The primary advantage of doing so by way of pressure modulation v. rotation/counter-rotation, is that the rider doesn't generate much, if any rotational momentum in the process.

The movements from one foot to the other and back follow the glide path.

 

At very slow speed, one can anchor, rotate, and release to pivot the board, but with more momentum in the system, it's something of a dead-end tactic.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Beckmann AG