AcousticBoarder Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 (edited) Hello all, I am pretty new to the hard boot setup, while I could say I "started" a few years back, I have only probably used my equipment for under 20 days. I went out in my hardboots for the first time this season, and going down the bottom outside of my front foot (opposite of the arch) started hurting the whole way, more so any time I stopped. This has been an issue in the past too to some extent. I ended up going to my carving soft setup. Anyone have any ideas? Here is my gear: Oxygen Proton 159 Deeluxe Suzuka with Intuition Liners, m26 TD1 bindings with a 3 degree cant in the front, 6 in the back. Angles are about 50 and 48 My best guess after today is that I need new boots. I have Deeluxe Vicious m26 as my soft boot setup and have no issue with them. I am thinking my Suzukas are just packed out and my heel is lifting UPDATE: Figured out it has to do with Heel Lift, and possibly canting? UPZ boots helped dramatically with their smaller heel cup Edited February 25, 2015 by AcousticBoarder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
two_ravens Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 No boot expert here, but it might help if you can describe the nature of the pain you are feeling... Does it feel like too much direct pressure, or muscle cramp, or a strange burning sensation, or something else perhaps.....? I'm wondering if you have a pressure point on the top of your foot somewhere that is pressing on a nerve. This will usually result in a rather intense burning type pain somewhere distal to that point - you may feel no discomfort whatsoever at the actual pressure point. But that's just a wild guess.... (Lifting heel could possibly result in pressure on top of foot...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 I had outside foot pain too until I changed my cant setup. With an inward cant, I was basically standing on the outer edges of my feet only. Once I flattened them (and went beyond to a little outward cant), I eliminated my pain. Then I also switched boots. It turns out Deeluxe boots were a little too narrow in the forefoot for my feet. Try putting your foot in without the liners. You should have some clearance for the liner foam. YMMV; I have underpronated/stiff feet with very high arches, medium to wide forefoot, and skinny heels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcousticBoarder Posted January 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 The pain I am getting is similar to a muscle cramp. If I try making the boot tighter, it cuts off circulation and I start getting the tingling/ burning feeling, but my foot still feels "loose". I could re-create the pain later in the day when I was sitting with the back foot out, and pulling up on the tail of the board while pushing it down with my front foot/ leg if that makes sense... Should I try turning around the front cant? I don't have any flat plates for them, just one 3 and one 6 degree with the matching rubber parts. I cant say its too narrow, If Deeluxe manufactures their soft boots similarly, my soft boots of the same size (bought new) feel tighter and more narrow, but I do not have this issue. I actually tried putting in an extra foot bed from my everyday shoes to help fill the volume and I think it helped a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Cant and toe- heel lift are different. Cant is more or less like pronation a slight turning in of the foot (for a non bowlegged person). Your normal may not be anything like my normal. If your soft boot setup is ok mimic that with your hard boot set up. As that rear foot is turned forward you may have to lift the heel and turn the cant inward Toe lift of 3 degree and heel lift of 6 degree is normal for many but don't assume it's correct for you unless it feels right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rikytheripster Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 I also get the same pain on the outside of my foot, however I get it on the back foot. Linked with what Corey said it makes sense as I weight the outside of my feet preferentially when I walk or do anything. What I find helps is too tighten the boot in increments, start with allowing your feet a bit of play and slowly tighten through the morning. I also unbuckle as I get on each lift... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hachis Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 What I find helps is too tighten the boot in increments, start with allowing your feet a bit of play and slowly tighten through the morning. I also unbuckle as I get on each lift... I use to do the same 'cause I've ragularly got kind of muscle cramps on my feet arches. (mostly the back one). This the more acceptable compromise I found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailertrash Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Do you have real custom footbeds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowboardfast Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 If your liners are worn out that might be the source of your problem as they get thinner when they are packed out too much. You might be able to just get new liners and still use those boots assuming they are the correct size? I am on my 3rd set of liners with my susaka boots and they are not worn out yet. the boots will last a long time. If you can go to a boot fitter they could help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teach Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Could be that your boot shells are too big. It's not uncommon to use hard boots a size or two smaller than your soft boots. When there's too much room, you tend to exert a lot of muscles to maintain your foothold, so to speak. How much room do you have when you put your bare feet into the shells without liners? Experiment with canting, as other have said. How are you currently set up? Cant discs sloping along the long axis of the board, or along the long axis of the boot, or...? "No cant" is sloping along the long axis of the boot, so the angle setting on the cant disc and binding are the same. If that's where you are now, try rotating the cant discs a notch inward (lower angle in front, higher in rear). If not, try no cant as your starting point. And as others have said, footbeds may be the issue, especially if you have the others covered. Eric Beckmann has a very informative collection of articles on his website. For binding setup, http://beckmannag.com/hardboot-snowboarding/hardboot-binding-configuration and also see the articles under "Alpine Skiing" on boot fitting and footbeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcousticBoarder Posted January 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Ok, so to answer... Custom Footbeds: I am using Superfeet Blue footbeds. Not "true" custom, but much better than stock. They do work pretty well and I use them in my other boots too. Size: I wear US size 9, mens for everyday wear. Not to harp on it, but my soft boots are Mondo Point sized, and even more, are the same manufacturer. Both these and my hardboots are m26, (US Mens 8) In my Deeluxe Vicious soft boots, my toes do touch the end of the boot. (I almost returned thinking they may be too small.) Shell size/ room: The shells are m25-27.5. When I put my foot in, no liner, I can fit 2-3 finders from my heel to the back of the boot. Liner Size: The liner is an Intuition Dreamliner, M26. I do feel like it may be a bit big, my toes do not touch the front, about a finger of space. quite possibly/probably packed out. Cant: My Bad, I made a typo earlier. I have TD1 bindings, not TD2. My cants are setup like this: _____>____<_____. So slanted towards the middle of the board, 3 in the front, 6 in the rear. Not much in terms of adjustment for those. I also get the same pain on the outside of my foot, however I get it on the back foot. Linked with what Corey said it makes sense as I weight the outside of my feet preferentially when I walk or do anything. What I find helps is too tighten the boot in increments, start with allowing your feet a bit of play and slowly tighten through the morning. I also unbuckle as I get on each lift... I do actually tend to weight myself on the outside of my feet as well. After this last time, I feel like the pain is from my foot being too loose, I don't know how trying loose to start will work but it is something I can try. I have not been to a boot fitter (besides a quick heat molding at Sport Chalet), I don't really know of any nearby (southern California) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OhD Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 You can rotate the baseplates to trade off some fore-aft cant for transverse cant. Might help if it feels like you're straining one foot to get an edge set. or if it feels like your feet are always trying to twist the board about the long axis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Can't rotate TD1 baseplates. :( I used small washers between the toe/heel blocks and the baseplate to remove inward cant on my old TD1s. Just wedge them under the inside edge, the bolt doesn't go through them. There are many thicknesses of washers available so you can fine-tune. Jack Michaud (I think) had a picture of him using a couple of dimes to do similar. Officially, this is a terrible idea. Unofficially, it works ok though I was paranoid and checked the bolt torque often. The bolts never loosened on mine. If you're handy with metal, you could make a tapered shim to do the same thing a little nicer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 " Can't rotate TD1 base plates " You can you just don't get the advantage of the extra few mounting holes to increase your stance if you need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Buggs Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 I tried many Deelux boots and even more liners, then I switched to UPZ and lived happily ever after 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcousticBoarder Posted January 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 I don't see many boots in my size for sale, and I don't think I can justify buying brand new at this time. Wish I could try on new Deeluxe and UPZ to see if it is a fit issue. Tognar has a boot fitting foam ankle wrap that I am going to try to see if it helps, I am thinking the pain is more from a fit issue around my ankle than the cant. Going to also look for a boot-fitter later this month and see if I can find any luck there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcousticBoarder Posted February 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 So, update, the ankle wraps helped a lot, but part of the issue is I sized my boots too big. The boot fitter helped me with a cheap, temporary solution of high volume liners and the ankle wraps, so very little to no lift now in my Deeluxe Suzukas. I also purchased UPZs (correct size) and tried them out today. So much more comfortable! I have also found that in the UPZs, I need more toe lift in the front, so I put my 6 cant in the front and 3 in the rear. Later today I was on my soft setup once the crowds moved in and trails were chopped up. I noticed the pain returning again, but only in my front foot. I know heel lift is a factor, and I also think that the ability to cant would help too. I got to thinking, would anything on technique contribute to this though? I definitely narrowed it down to doing toe-side carves, and only my front foot seems to have an issue. I was trying to work on weighting today, combined with gilmour bias, starting heel sides with the front foot and toe with the rear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darko714 Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Your symptoms sound like Metatarsaglia, it's a common foot problem, probably from decades of toe-strike running and playing basketball. Or you may Morton's Neuroma, which is what I believe I have. Same causes. It's a thickening of nerve tissue between the metatarsal bones, which is irritated by compression of the end of your foot by a too-narrow toe box in shoes or boots. Bones crushing a nerve - ouch, ouch, ouch! I had the foot pain big time when I started out hardbooting. After about an hour of riding, the pain on the bottom of my back foot, between my third and fourth metatarsals, was intense. Especially when stopping, skidding or chattering on heelside turns. My first step was to change my setup. I opened my stance on my rear foot from 52 degrees to about 42, and added heel lift, toe lift, and inward cant, all to take pressure off the pained area. It helped, but the pain still came later in the day, and my carving suffered. My next step was seeing a boot fitter. I have Deeluxe Suzukas with the thermoflex liners. He used a moto-tool to grind out and enlarge the toe box of the rear foot to create more width. Huge help. So much that I was able to contemplate changing my stance back to more aggressive angles. Finally, my riding has begun to progress. Yes, better riding technique helps! Being able to get consistently cleaner carves, without chatter, in steeper terrain, has taken a LOT of pressure off that back foot so that now, even though the Morton's Neuroma (or whatever it is) has gotten worse, I can actually ride with less pain than walking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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