Anybody Else Running Heel Lift on Front and Rear Foot??

[RCrobar]

Hello

From this thread and others I have gleaned the following information:

Northwave Hardboots - Have a LARGE amount of heel lift built into the boot.

Raichle/Deeluxe - Have a MEDIUM amount of heel lift built into the boot.

Head/Blax - Have a SMALL amount of heel lift built into the boot.

Why?

What are the advantages, disadvantages of more or less built in heel lift in a boot? (Any boot experts out there?)

There must be a reason as to why different designers came up with different heel height measurements.

Thanks in advance.

Rob

Edited May 1, 2013 by RCrobar

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

That's what I was thinking. Too bad I have to wait until next season to try it.;)

I think it may make it harder to tuck your back knee in under your front knee.

[Gtanner]

Here's a related question: I'm riding at an intermediate level but I'm still washing out my toe side turns too much. Could there be a barryj style quick fix for me?

I ride two different setups: A Prior 183 WCRM metal top with F2 titanium race bindings set at 55/45, with 3 degree heel lift and 1 degree toe lift, and . . .

a Donek 162 Axxis with TD2s set on fat yellow TD3 e-rings set at 50/40 with 6 degree heel and toe lift. I ride 19.5" on both boards and Deeluxe Suzukas with BTS, (mondo 28).

My heelsides lock in nicely but my toesides start to wash at the beginning of the turn before I can get the board angled and tighten them up. Sometimes when if I do rail a toe side it takes me by surprise and I have to struggle to stay balanced.

There seems to be some real expertise on this thread so . . . any suggestions??

Be careful you aren't dipping your inside shoulder toward the snow. Keep your shoulder platform parallel with the snow at all times.

[BlueB]

Just add 6 degree of toe lift on the back foot and you are all set!!!

Awsome! I would finaly be able to ride 12" stance, although I might have to drill the Kessler and use ski screws, as the inserts won't allow it that narrow.

Also, since the binding setup is basically switched, back-to-front, this might allow me to clip my rear (left) foot into the front binding, and front (right) foot into the rear binding and practically ride Regular, while maintaining the Goofy feet orientation. It might give a relief to my sore broken hip, without having to relearn to Regular body mechanics!

[kieran]

Also, since the binding setup is basically switched, back-to-front, this might allow me to clip my rear (left) foot into the front binding, and front (right) foot into the rear binding and practically ride Regular, while maintaining the Goofy feet orientation. It might give a relief to my sore broken hip, without having to relearn to Regular body mechanics!

y'know, i've often wondered about the crossed-leg switch stance, toeside would probably be fine. heelside would probably need a hip replacement.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Awsome! I would finaly be able to ride 12" stance, although I might have to drill the Kessler and use ski screws, as the inserts won't allow it that narrow.

Also, since the binding setup is basically switched, back-to-front, this might allow me to clip my rear (left) foot into the front binding, and front (right) foot into the rear binding and practically ride Regular, while maintaining the Goofy feet orientation. It might give a relief to my sore broken hip, without having to relearn to Regular body mechanics!

Photos please :)

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

y'know, i've often wondered about the crossed-leg switch stance, toeside would probably be fine. heelside would probably need a hip replacement.

Photos Please! :)

[Corey]

Please take it easy on Barry! He's a good guy; we rode together at SES this year. He's learning as he goes, just like all of us did (and still are). Fun ribbing is one thing, but keep it fun for him too.

[Beckmann AG]

What are the advantages, disadvantages of more or less built in heel lift in a boot?

There must be a reason as to why different designers came up with different heel height measurements.

"No need to go heeled to get the bulge on a tub like you."

In alpine sport, heel height, or boot ramp, is determined by at least a few considerations:

Marketing, historical preference, biomechanical need, and task. Not necessarily in that order.

Whenever you are doing a task, standing, where your shoulders are cantilevered ahead of your hips, your heels should be raised. The extent to which; is determined by your skeletal structure, as well as the specific nature of the job.

E.g., logging crews involved in hand falling and other groundwork, as well as wildland firefighters, tend to have higher boot heels than, say, baristas and Wal-Mart sales associates.

If the heels are not raised, one can expect eventual tension, soreness, and pain in the back half of the body, extending from the heel pads, up to the middle of the back.

This is especially true if the activity is repeated day after day, under increasing and variable load.

Muscle tension at the back of the legs will generally start above the curve of the calf, through the back of the knee, continuing through the biceps femoris.

If the heels are too high for a given activity, the forefoot and knees may become sore, with undue tension in the quads and below the curve of the calf muscles.

E.g., too much heel height in a running shoe leads to a jarring, rather than elastic stride.

Very few skiers have managed to take instruction without being told to 'get forward' or to apply pressure to the balls of their feet.

Clever marketing will, therefore, produce a boot with excessive ramp. In the showroom, the customer will feel pitched forward, and think, "A-ha, my days of driving from the back seat are over".

Instant sale. Cha-ching.

Back on snow, that same skier will sit back further than before as a means of restoring gliding equilibrium.

(One Iconic tiger-striped boot of recent history had a ramp that tested out as being almost 3/8" too high for most users.)

Most of the obvious issues with fore/aft 'balance' in skiing are directly related to internal ramp, forward lean, and the difference in height at the toe and heel of the binding.

Ramp also determines selective range of motion from the hip down. I.e., willful flexion/extension.

For many athletes, tuning combined ramp is initially more relevant than the need for medial/lateral canting. (Though the need for canting affects both posture and facility).

Resolve the ramp, reduce the need for excessive stabilizing muscle tension, and skiing becomes much more fluid and enjoyable.

Not to mention safer: Heel height often plays a part in ACL injuries.

Nevertheless, a little too high is better than a little too low, at least for the average recreational skier. They can simply convince themselves that fitness is the issue. Excess ramp and 'Chernobyl Quad' walk hand in hand, whereas skiing with heels too low is unsettling to the point of leaving the piste for fear of bodily damage.

Until recently, manufacturers would stick with whatever boot geometry worked for them in the past. For instance, Lange race boots maintained the same ramp from the Banshee series of the late '70s, until the last of the L10 boots of a few years ago.

That ramp measured roughly 5 or 6 degrees.

The Nordica Dobermann and the Grand Prix predecessor measured close to the same number.

(For a few years, the Lange/Nordica zeppas obviously came from the same factory, or at least a shared mold).

Clearly, this ramp angle worked well for gated competition. Some boots dominated the podium, while others rarely got close.

Ski boot ramps reached their height of foolish with initial market acceptance of 'shaped' skis. After all, if one needed to 'get forward' on straight skis, more must be necessary for the shaped.

The Dolomite 'Carve' boot would not have looked out of place in De Wallen...

Over the last decade, ramps have come down, to the point where some of the HP boots come in around 4 degrees, plus or minus.

Meanwhile, the Dee-Luxe checks in somewhere between 9 and 12.

Some of the excess height is likely due to the addition of the Intec heel into the pre-existing Raichle molds.

(Previously, ski binding ramps increased to account for the addition of heel mounted brake mechanisms.)

It is well worth the time needed for an athlete to tune heel height for their particular needs. This is especially true if performance is the goal. While there are legitimate trends in acceptable toe/heel height, the same specific numeric ramp value is not right for everyone. The geometry of 'ideal' bone stack varies from person to person, and quite often from left to right. In the event of limited dorsiflexion, a rider would need more heel height to avoid bearing weight only on the forefoot. This would also suggest slightly more heel height inside the rear boot than the front.

Half a degree can make a significant difference.

Bear in mind that the human body is sensitive to surface irregularities measured to several thousandths of an inch. Were this not the case, we'd all walk about like a rumble of drunken monkeys.

Skis and snowboards respond to two primary inputs: How (and where) they are pressured, and how they are tilted relative to the snow.

Boot shell ramp, cant, and toe/heel lift at the binding have a direct bearing on the availability, and translation of these inputs. Given the symmetry of the platform, what you gain to one edge you will generally lose to the other.

On a board, with bindings mounted at an angle relative to the gliding axis, most of the adjustment variables overlap in terms of effect. This is problematic, particularly for the novice.

The key is to find a configuration that permits both power and dexterity with regard to the necessary inputs.

As opposed to say, choosing a trendy stance width, and tweaking the clamps until that stance no longer feels hateful.

Unless there is some manner of hindfoot deformity, and/or limited ROM, 3-3.5 degrees, heel high, measured with the empty boot shell clamped in the binding, is a good starting point at the front foot. Of course, end goals will determine where things finish up, but one needs begin somewhere.

The utility of boot-binding configuration is best evaluated on either blue-gray ice/hardpack, or something with an indeterminate base. Heavy spring granular, or fresh snow with depth such that one cannot readily 'bottom out', are suitable.

The truth shows up when there is less to 'lean' on.

Within reason, there is a predictable outcome for every boot/binding adjustment. When a rider presents with a configuration outside of the ordinary, there is usually a good reason for it. Somewhere along the line, there may be biomechanical issues, a misunderstanding of cause and effect, or both.

There is also the possibility that what they have now, is so much better than what they had before, that it can't be 'wrong', on account of feeling 'right' by comparison.

And sometimes, a rose... is just a rose.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Beckmann AG

[Jack M]

Hello

From this thread and others I have gleaned the following information:

Northwave Hardboots - Have a LARGE amount of heel lift built into the boot.

Raichle/Deeluxe - Have a MEDIUM amount of heel lift built into the boot.

Head/Blax - Have a SMALL amount of heel lift built into the boot.

Why?

What are the advantages, disadvantages of more or less built in heel lift in a boot? (Any boot experts out there?)

There must be a reason as to why different designers came up with different heel height measurements.

Thanks in advance.

Rob

Perhaps some positive information can be salvaged from Barryj's 17cm stance width, Gilmore biased, double heel lift ... troll.

I have never even seen Northwaves in person, nevermind used a pair, but from pictures I have to wonder if the high heel was purely an unintentional by-product of trying to tuck the heel bail in under the heel for shorter overall boot/binding length. Minimizing boot drag, or at least the appearance of minimizing boot drag was a major trend started in the 90s and popularized by the Burton Megaflex boot. It's entirely possible Northwave was just trying to one-up everyone else in this regard with the bail-under-heel design.

[softbootsurfer]

I guess I would just ask why we come with Flat Feet :)

[Corey]

I can confirm that I'm quite comfortable walking on the heels only of my UPZ boots. They're so far forwards that it's not very hard. Well, it's kind of like walking on stilts in that you need to take a lot of little steps to keep the heels under your center of mass. The only issue is falling on your butt with Fintec heels on smooth surfaces!

[RCrobar]

Hello

Sincere apologies to Barry, often communicating through a forum leads to misunderstandings that are NOT intended. I honestly could not tell if the original post was a troll or was a guy truly looking to discuss an idea, thank you Corey for putting some light on this.

This line of ribbing reminds me of when a very prominent forum member posted that he likes to ride with his front binding higher than his back binding. If I recall correctly he rode with heel lift in the back foot, the front foot elevated and flat. Essentially he was riding with a double heel lift and a front elevated foot. Yes, Fin called this the 'gas pedal' and suggested guys just give it a try. Fin did not receive any friendly ribbing for his set up suggestion.

What I take away from this is to not be afraid to get the screw driver out, blow an hour testing something crazy as you never know what knowledge and learning that you may come away with; if you are a master at setting up a board you have spent years doing this! I wonder what inspired Fin to raise up his front binding? His curious nature, and I am sure many crazy tests, seems to have lead to a better understanding and some great gear for everyone.

Cheers

Rob

Edited May 1, 2013 by RCrobar

[barryj]

Well took this experiment to Mammoth last weekend and I have to say I had a blast! I did lower the front heel lift from a 4 to a 2 which, with my setup increased my cant inward and it took a little pressure off what little thigh pressure l was feeling....but otherwisw it's the best heel and toeside setup I have ridden..............call me a mutant, but it works!

[kieran]

Photos Please! :)

carpet carving only! ;)

[BlueB]

You beet me to it! :lol: :lol:

[Jack M]

Double heel lift? Asyms? I'm out. It's all good, bro. Just ride, man.

[Corey]

carpet carving only! ;)

My knees made a popping noise when I opened those pictures. LOL!

[kieran]

My knees made a popping noise when I opened those pictures. LOL!

yes, i could feel my right knee trying to separate itself when taking the heelside pic. not recommended. ;)

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

yes, i could feel my right knee trying to separate itself when taking the heelside pic. Not recommended. ;)

twisted!!!!!!!!!!!!