Heelside turns not finishing

[jng]

I have been struggling with completing my heelside turn on steeper terrain. Originally, the problem was keeping the heel edge from washing out, but I have been able to mostly fix that by moving my weight to the tail at the end of the turn. But now, the board never wants to turn uphill on the heelside. No problems on moderate terrain or on any terrain on the toeside.

This is something that affects both hard and soft boot setups for me, and I was hoping that by moving to a Coiler this year that I would resolve the issue at least on the hard boot setup, but it's still happening.

I suspect that I am not putting the board at a high enough angle. Wondering if others have experience with this and had any recommendations.

Thanks!

[scrutton]

Some ideas to try/think about.

- are you on the down-hill edge before you initiate the turn. It's helpful if you are.

- get your weight on the downhill edge - for me, I like to hang my butt over the edge of the board

- bring your toes up, this will angle your heel edge into the snow and initiate the turn a lot earlier than you would otherwise.

- extending your legs mid-turn (after you have started railing the downhill edge will increase your speed coming out of the turn and get the turn performed in a tighter radius, as you'll start bending the board).

Read the Norm article if you haven't already, or if the first point I make makes no sense.

[BlueB]

Video?

Blind guess, are you counter-rotating? It is very common on steep terrain. Once the body faces downhill, it is very hard for the board to carry on uphill...

[jng]

scrutton - No edge initiation issues. I engage my downhill edge early on both sides

- extending your legs mid-turn (after you have started railing the downhill edge will increase your speed coming out of the turn and get the turn performed in a tighter radius, as you'll start bending the board).

Interesting. I'll give it a try. I usually extend at end of my turns to up-unweight, timing it with the edge change. If I'm extending earlier in the turn, it sounds like I'll be fairly extended at the end of the turn. Will probably need to change to a down-unweighting maneuver at the edge change.

Video?

Blind guess, are you counter-rotating? It is very common on steep terrain. Once the body faces downhill, it is very hard for the board to carry on uphill...

I'm a former instructor so if I had a video, I would do my own movement analysis.

You might be right though about possible counter-rotation. I am facing the nose, but I think I'll have to exaggerate next time.

[kmartshopper]

When I find myself doing this, the "Heads up" drill from this page sometimes helps. (ie. pick a target point on the opposite side of the trail for your next turn). Being aggressive and picking a point high up - or even changing points as you come around (moving it back/higher/uphill) will help me rip the turn around. If I'm not mistaken in my jargon, this helps avoid the aforementioned counter-rotation.

bomber drills page

[Aracan]

I also had trouble getting the board to go uphill on backside turns. Now, in the second half of the turn, I try to actively put weight on the outside of my front foot. This works for me, but depending on the board, it might cause your tail to wash out ...

[Guest]

I am a huge fan of rotation, and I think you are probably counter-rotating. Be concious of your rear shoulder (bring that sucker around almost in front of you). For your hips, think as if you were trying to pee on the nose of the board. You'll know you're rotating enough when you can't really rotate any more :P

[jng]

For your hips, think as if you were trying to pee on the nose of the board.

Great visual. Yuck, but effective. Thanks!

[Puddy Tat]

...For your hips, think as if you were trying to pee on the nose of the board...

And here's hoping jng is male otherwise you just totally threw their technique out the window...

[big mario]

Downhill hand on downhill boot cuff and look where you want to go

mario

[Rob Stevens]

I'm a former instructor so if I had a video, I would do my own movement analysis.

You can't get someone to video you? Borrow a NoBro's and video yourself? Might as well... This feedback is being given in the dark. As a former instructor, I bet you never gave a lesson over the phone.

[Beckmann AG]

I'm a former instructor...

As they sometimes say down at the pool hall: "Nice leave."

Hypothetically, if you had a client present with your stated dilemma, how would you proceed?

This is something that affects both hard and soft boot setups for me.

Somewhere in here ^ is the start of your answer.

I suspect that I am not putting the board at a high enough angle.

'putting'?

Nine Iron?

How you conceptualize likely informs how you execute. Maybe 're-think' and take a different tack.

"...But the sea, the sea in darkness calls;

The little waves, with their soft, white hands

Efface the footprints in the sands,

And the tide rises, the tide falls."

-HWLongfellow

[jng]

This feedback is being given in the dark. As a former instructor, I bet you never gave a lesson over the phone.

No, I have not given a lesson over the phone, but I have given off-hill advice to friends which has helped their riding. I can recognize common patterns of symptoms and remedies, but the issue I am dealing with is not one I have encountered.

The intent of the original post was to solicit feedback from someone who may have had a similar experience. Others had given some constructive feedback.

[jng]

Downhill hand on downhill boot cuff and look where you want to go

Thanks, Mario.

As I think about the mechanics, I should be rotating the hips more and aligning my shoulders more to the hill. Both of your tips are great visual cues that prompt the right mechanics.

[Hans]

Hmm, why rotating? It all depends on the ridingstyle. Looking uphill mostly solves the problem, you can do this also without rotating. I had some problems with the first 3 meters of my backside (not carving), a big lift in my backside solved the problem because I ride stances over 55 degrees till 87 degrees.

[Rob Stevens]

I can recognize common patterns of symptoms and remedies, but the issue I am dealing with is not one I have encountered.

The intent of the original post was to solicit feedback from someone who may have had a similar experience. Others had given some constructive feedback.

I suggest that if you haven't encountered this problem before, you are not in a position to self-analyze very well, nor differentiate good advise from bad... Both of which have been given. You might remember this from your Level 1, regardless of where you took it. For progress to be made, you should be riding in a "Training Cycle". You ride, someone watches you, gives you pointed feedback and you ride some more, attempting to incorporate this feedback into your riding. You have put something like this together here, but it falls apart when 1) Your self-analysis of your issue might be wrong, then 2) Strangers are going to give you random feedback which, 3) You try and incorporate, good or bad, with questionable results. Not to say this cant happen live... I've seen instructor candidates completely miss-call problems and give the wrong movement or suggest the wrong terrain, but it's a much straighter line to success for you if there's a visual in place for us. It's even a good filter for bad advise, as the people who know what they're talking about can let you know why the other stuff won't work. Lastly, there's a danger here in incorporating movements that work temporarily. Excessive rotation is one of them. It might help you "turn uphill" on your heelside (why you would want to do that when riding downhill, I don't know), but I can almost guarantee you'll be back wondering why your toesides take so long to hook up.

[jng]

it's a much straighter line to success for you if there's a visual in place for us

Nobody is disputing that video or live analysis is better, nor was I expecting that the advice would be spot on. My request for technique advice is one of many in the forums. By your standards, riding tips are off-limits on the forum altogether.

Your points on the limits of the advice are valid. I take all the advice with a grain of salt. When I'm on the hill next, I will play with some of the ideas. I'll keep what works and discard what doesn't.

[jng]

Hmm, why rotating? It all depends on the ridingstyle. Looking uphill mostly solves the problem, you can do this also without rotating.

Strictly speaking, your board doesn't care which way your eyes or head are pointing. However, as a consequence of looking uphill, the shoulders will rotate followed by the hips and feet. Turning the head works great with kids since their core moves more or less like a single unit.

In a recent clinic (telemark, but many of the same mechanics), we focused on turning from the feet as a more efficient means of rotating. I would think that this bottoms up approach, rather than top down approach is equally applicable to snowboarding.

That being said, maybe rotation is not the key to solving my particular issue, but it's something worth trying.

[pogokoenig]

That being said, maybe rotation is not the key to solving my particular issue, but it's something worth trying.

That being said: you are definetely on the right path. Body rotation throughout the complete turn is probably the most effective way to get your issue resolved.

a very good drill that has helped almost all of my students is the uphill waiving: grab a partner. Let him wait on the hill above you, while you are practising rhythmic and cyclic turns. After every turn you look up to him and waive to him with both arms. Keep your elbows up and let him see both your hands when you waive. This only works when you really rotate on the heelside. it feels like you almost overrotate. Every time your partner sees both your hands waiving, he waives back. It is important that you always lock into your position until you see his feedback waiving. Do this for a couple of runs and you know how a fully half-circled heelside feels.

[Jack M]

LOOK where you want the carve to go. That is ACROSS the hill - NOT down the hill.