Seasoned Softbooter Seeks Help With Hardbooting

[Wendell]

Degree of difficulty.

Perspective from a soft boot rider, alpine wannabe:

I've been wanting to get into carving for years but find it too difficult compared to soft boot riding. Probably doing something wrong (technique or set up) but have tried and failed. I ride 100 days a year in the NE in softies and have ridden for 22 years, so experience is not the problem, and I work at a resort. Bought a Donek Axxess 172 with OS2 (55/55) and older Raichle 123 boots that are comfortable enough if a bit soft. Actually bought 3 alpine boards to use but sold them in frustration. The Donek is roughly 5 years old and has perhaps 10 hours of use. Here's the problem in a nutshell: compared to my usual set up, the boots are less comfortable, the stance is awkward, and it is hard to get the back foot in when starting off. Every year I take it out and try, every year I give up after a couple of hours. I am relieved to get back in my softies and stand at 21/12.

I bought Catek's FR2 and tried at steepish angles with my Driver Xs but did not work and they were overly fiddly, so sold them too. Was trying to find a compromise. I've read many set up threads here as well as advice on getting started.

Am I just lazy or is alpine snowboarding just hard to learn, even for the experienced? Nothing prettier than seeing a decent hard boot rider turn it uphill, and as many have said, even skiers are in awe of the carves.

There must be a reason you rarely see a hardbooter at Sugarbush. Would still like to learn one day. Any magic bullets?

[NSSage]

Degree of difficulty.

Perspective from a soft boot rider, alpine wannabe:

I've been wanting to get into carving for years but find it too difficult compared to soft boot riding. Probably doing something wrong (technique or set up) but have tried and failed. I ride 100 days a year in the NE in softies and have ridden for 22 years, so experience is not the problem, and I work at a resort. Bought a Donek Axxess 172 with OS2 (55/55) and older Raichle 123 boots that are comfortable enough if a bit soft. Actually bought 3 alpine boards to use but sold them in frustration. The Donek is roughly 5 years old and has perhaps 10 hours of use. Here's the problem in a nutshell: compared to my usual set up, the boots are less comfortable, the stance is awkward, and it is hard to get the back foot in when starting off. Every year I take it out and try, every year I give up after a couple of hours. I am relieved to get back in my softies and stand at 21/12.

I bought Catek's FR2 and tried at steepish angles with my Driver Xs but did not work and they were overly fiddly, so sold them too. Was trying to find a compromise. I've read many set up threads here as well as advice on getting started.

Am I just lazy or is alpine snowboarding just hard to learn, even for the experienced? Nothing prettier than seeing a decent hard boot rider turn it uphill, and as many have said, even skiers are in awe of the carves.

There must be a reason you rarely see a hardbooter at Sugarbush. Would still like to learn one day. Any magic bullets?

first off, that's an awkward stance with both feet at the same angle you mentioned it was hard to get your back foot in so lower the angle on your back foot it might help and too wide of a stance could also make it hard to get the back foot in. If the boots are really that uncomfortable then buy some moldable liners. Also a few hours is not nearly enough time if you want to learn this you have to pit alot of effort into it and just understand that it's not like your old snowboard you are going to be like a beginner again at least for a few days. Really commit man, that's the most important thing and read the technique section here www.alpinecarving.com . Alpine is not hard to learn but you will not get it in a few hours every year I rode everyday in hardboots for like a week and by that time I was a decent rider then in two months I was already racing GS and SL just because I wanted to learn so I put alot of time and effort into it and I was willing to look like a beginner again. Just don't give up man you will get it

[energyrail]

In response to Wendell.

Hard boots can be awkward. In your limited time on alpine equipment have you felt that locked carve yet?

Some will get stuck in that first carve, not knowing how to get out of it. But crave the feeling afterwards.

Are your those soft angles 21/12 or 21/-12?

55/55 is probably not a good starting point. Running with same front and rear angles isn't very common. Feels terrible to me.

Try 55/50 or 55/50 or 55/47.

Catek are extremely stiff, good for lots adjustment though. If you were to use them on a good stiff softboot board. Running angles of 45/ 40 or less. You can relocate the longer set screws to run lots of inward cant on the back foot.

Bindings like snowpro and f2. Also allow alot of cant and lift.

But much more binding flex, which makes things more forgiving at slow speed edge to edge slide turns.

Sidewinders also are great too. But stiffer heel to toe. Once you learn to drop the knees on hardboots. Riding groomers on softboots will be annoying with the heel toe drag.

Only run as much angle needed to eliminate drag.

[Wendell]

Great advice, both. Thanks. Could be hope for me yet.

Will start by reducing my OS2 angles and see how it goes, maybe 55/47. Also, will give it more time. If I could learn to tele (to intermediate level), for sure I could manage this with more effort. Btw, soft boot angles are 21/12 both forward facing. I have been able to hold a carve on the Donek, especially toe side, and I tend to pop/jump turn on the transition with all the energy loaded up. Assume in time will learn more finesse to roll the transition better. I might try a regular freeride board with the hard boots as a stop gap measure. Could be the ticket I need.

@ Alpine Ace: Could probably find a buyer for that T bar if your dream never materializes. Best of luck with that.

[Allee]

Wendell, I hear you. I did three days learning on a soft setup before I saw a carver on the hill and decided that was what I wanted to do. So I bought some gear (which without any guidance was very much the wrong gear for me) and went out there. And I SUCKED. I beat myself to crap for around 10 days before I even learned to stand up, much less carve anything. I have much respect for anyone who learned to alpine board in a few days, because my experience was the same as yours.

The two best things I ever did were - one, hook up with a local crew and get some tips from people who actually knew how to ride, and two, spend four days at Snowperformance camp, during which I went from flail around the hill to "aha!" If you can make a weekend with someone who knows what they're doing, it will make all the difference. It doesn't take much to get you started - once you feel that first carve, it's all downhill from there. Sometimes it just takes a while to get there.

Hang in there. It's totally worth it.

[lafcadio]

Hi Wendell,

Agree with what everyone else is saying. Would also like to add that there are a couple of locations not too far from you where carvers like to hang out, give advice, and share the love. One is Stratton, the other is Berkshire East in Western Mass.

In particular, Berkshire East hosts an annual mini carving session each year the weekend after Presidents' Day in February. Joerg Egli from Pure Boarding was there the last two years to offer free carving clinics. No confirmation yet, if he's going to be there this year, but there's a session in Mont Blanc Quebec Feb 8-9:

http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?37773-Pureboarding-Event-Mont-Blanc-Quebec-%96-February-9-10-2013

You're right about Sugbarbush not being the most popular place for carvers, but believe it or not, I was at Sugarbush last weekend and I saw 3 other alpine riders while there. I met one in the pub Friday night (he noticed the T-shirt I had on), then ran into him again on the hill. The other two I only saw from a distance while riding the chair. From what I could tell, Sugarbush is a great mountain for skiers and off piste in general, but the carvers will mostly be hanging out at Mt. Ellen/Sugarbush North.

Good luck and keep at it. The best advice is to find other carvers and meet up with them. Get to a carving event. Checkout the ride boards.

(Talk about hijacking a thread. Apologies to the original poster.)

[Jack M]

Am I just lazy or is alpine snowboarding just hard to learn, even for the experienced? Nothing prettier than seeing a decent hard boot rider turn it uphill, and as many have said, even skiers are in awe of the carves.

There must be a reason you rarely see a hardbooter at Sugarbush. Would still like to learn one day. Any magic bullets?

Maybe you already are, but typically the magic bullet is first being able to carve on your softboot gear. I mean carve, not just turn, and to be able to start a carve on your downhill edge. Can you draw a thin line in the snow with your board which starts with your board pointing across the hill, then carving all the way around until the board is pointing across the hill the other way? And can you link turns like this? People who can do this on softboots typically have a much easier time transitioning to hardboots.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Jack Michaud

[Neil Gendzwill]

Or it could be just that some lower angles and softer boots would help. This was back in the dark ages but I switched from a Sims 1710 Blade with Sorels and ski boot liners to a Gnu Race Room with Koflach Damians self-taught over an evening at a small local hill (COP in Calgary). The Damians are not that stiff and I was running probably 45 degree angles. Slightly lower expectations can help too - I sincerely doubt I was drawing pencil carves at that time, and I still benefit from skidded turns in various situations. Not every turn has to be poster-pretty.

[Wendell]

I'm a good carver in softies and rarely drag an edge. I also change radius and do a series of sl turns, then switch to larger gs type turns. Once we see positive temps back here on Friday, I am trying the Donek with less angles. I may move to a freestyle board with hard boots so I don't have toe drag.

Sorry to the original poster here too (was giving my perspective on why the sport is waning) but really appreciate all the advice on set up and perseverance.

.

[Jack M]

I'm a good carver in softies and rarely drag an edge. I also change radius and do a series of sl turns, then switch to larger gs type turns. Once we see positive temps back here on Friday, I am trying the Donek with less angles. I may move to a freestyle board with hard boots so I don't have toe drag.

That's all fine, but you didn't answer the question. Can you carve your downhill edge?

[xy9ine]

i'd say work more on a softboot carving setup. certainly more forgiving than the transition to hard, and lots cheaper (assuming you've got a capable board already). i've been on hardboots exclusively for about 4 seasons now, but rented a softie setup for a day last year (salomon burner, and whatever crap bindings / boots they had), and was impressed as to the carving capability once set up correctly (ie, enough angulation to avoid boot out). versatile, and lots of fun. i think once you've got the technique down with a setup like this, the transition to hard / dedicated alpine deck will be fairly intuitive. would love to give one of the hot modern bx boards (ie, kessler, prior, oxess) a go w/ some stiff softies...

[dingbat]

[blah blah blah, advice and what-not.....]

In particular, Berkshire East hosts an annual mini carving session each year the weekend after Presidents' Day in February. Joerg Egli from Pure Boarding was there the last two years to offer free carving clinics. No confirmation yet, if he's going to be there this year, but there's a session in Mont Blanc Quebec Feb 8-9:

http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?37773-Pureboarding-Event-Mont-Blanc-Quebec-%96-February-9-10-2013

.....[blah blah blah]

Info for the Rally is up: http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?39078-Rally-at-the-Thunder-Dome-13

[Beckmann AG]

...is alpine snowboarding just hard to learn, even for the experienced?

Sure, why not. Some people can run for hours in traditional running shoes, while others will suffer knee and back pain with identical footwear. There are those who can hop on a snowboard and be productive in short order, while others of similar athletic composition struggle.

....Any magic bullets?

Getting started with facility on hardboots is about 85% dependent on your boot/binding configuration, and where you mount the clamps on the length of the board.

More often then not, snowboarders of both boot persuasions have difficulties for the same two reasons:

1. They are configured to fail.

2. They are trying to make use of suggestions or imagery that have nothing to do with where they are on the learning curve. Quite often the information is just plain 'wrong', whereby cause and effect are securely linked only in the mind of the speaker.

Riding softies is a bit like talking to a friend/acquaintance, in that you can get away with idiomatic expressions, slang, and profanity. Meaning is conveyed one way or the other, and the conversation continues with some semblance of utility.

Due in part to the slack in the system. The 'give and take', if you will.

Riding hardboots is like 'conversing' with a freshly-minted graduate of engineering. Reference frame is tightly controlled, and all parameters must be set in advance. You're playing their game, after all. If you do not choose your words wisely, and present them in the correct order, the listener will assume you have no idea whereof you speak, and will conduct him/herself accordingly. This usually does not turn out well, as what you get is not what you sought, and you may question your making the effort in the first place.

You need to engage your board in a conversation, bearing in mind that your board is much like a computer, in that it does exactly what you tell it to do. You have two primary commands; how much you tilt it, and with which body parts, and what magnitude of pressure do you supply to it, and where along its length is said pressure directed.

(Consider that the typical foot collapsing under load to the medial side is sending a 'go' input to the board.)

And of course there is a time signature involved.

The problem you may be having, is that your 'inputs' are excessive, and the relative rigidity of the system is translating all, and while filtering none.

Try typing with sticky fingered work gloves, and see how that goes.

If I could learn to tele (to intermediate level), for sure I could manage this with more effort

A toeside turn on an alpine board is a remarkable facsimile of a telemark turn.

Unless you're 'cheat-a-marking', in which case bets are off.

That said:

I have been able to hold a carve on the Donek, especially toe side, and I tend to pop/jump turn on the transition with all the energy loaded up.

'Up-unweighting' on either telemark or hardboots isn't furthering your cause.

By your own account, you are capable of moving about the mountain on your softies at will. The question though, is how are you getting the job done? Any number of riders will present as being 'advanced', and capable of riding all sorts of terrain, when in fact they are fairly 'new' to the path of skill development. They have simply become very effective at executing ineffective movements.

Got video?

[~tb]

Haven't read all the responses, just the OP. best thing you can do is find a group of good riders to "shut up and ride" with.

If this involves going to another mountain or importing component riders, just do it. Also highly recommended attending SES, ECES and any other gathering/rally.

[LeeW]

Sounds like Coach Sean Maccaron's the guy to get in touch with or take a lesson for alpine riding up at Marmot Basin, Canada (if he's still there).

[Ian M]

Hey Wendell,

As Beckman alluded to in his beautiful analogy, hard-boot configurations require very specific inputs. While no one else has gone so far as to say it, I'll say flat out that I find hard-boot setups very limiting for average riding. I am a very proficient skier and soft-booter, and definitely find hard-booting the least comfortable and most challenging of the three ways to slide. That being said, a carving board is like an exotic sports car. It is bizarre and unwieldy to beginners at low speeds, but practically allows the impossible at high speeds in capable hands. If you're looking for all-mountain versatility, a carving board is not your best bet. If you like the thrill of speed, and the beauty of deep slalom-ski type carves, then continue with dedication, as it is totally worth it.

The best advice has already been given - hook up with local riders, and find someone who can teach you even if it means traveling. You'll be amazed what happens :)

[charliechocolate]

If you're looking for all-mountain versatility, a carving board is not your best bet.

Not necessarily true as there are all-mountain hardboot-specific boards that can carve very well and yet still hold their own off-piste and elsewhere, at least in my opinion. I'd say it's a compromise and is actually a good way to transition from softies to HB.

[Ian M]

Not necessarily true as there are all-mountain hardboot-specific boards that can carve very well and yet still hold their own off-piste and elsewhere, at least in my opinion. I'd say it's a compromise and is actually a good way to transition from softies to HB.

Yes, sorry - I often forget about all-mountain boards, as I'm more of a pure-carving stick guy. I was speaking about the racier stuff...

[BlueB]

Yes, sorry - I often forget about all-mountain boards, as I'm more of a pure-carving stick guy. I was speaking about the racier stuff...

He, he, Patric recently found out that even among AM boards, certain do the true AM duty better than other...

[lafcadio]

I was speaking about the racier stuff...

The "racier" stuff"? You mean like a topsheet graphic that would get flagged as inappropriate if a photo was posted in the forum? :D

[Steph]

Hi Wendell, there is a group of us at Stratton regularly, including weekdays. There is also an HB instructor available. If you really want to work on it, there is no better way than riding with others.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Yes, sorry - I often forget about all-mountain boards, as I'm more of a pure-carving stick guy. I was speaking about the racier stuff...

I take my Coiler AM all over the mountain, very versatile. I recently acquired a Coiler Nirvana and had it out on a soft snow day and it was completely rideable too. Boot/binding combo is at least as important - if you lock yourself into a super-stiff setup then you will not be enjoying life off the groom no matter what board you are on.