lowrider Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 I could be proved wrong but last i heard there has not been a metal Coiler failure, I ride my Metal Coiler with a plate with great confidence in the board builder. The plate builder, well ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, we'll see.[QUOTE=Apex Insider;372245]Our first race plate hit the snow in the summer of 2009. Since then, we've sold a lot of plates to World Cup and other FIS carded athletes. Total snow days must number in the tens of thousands. In all that time, the number of plate related board failures have numbered exactly - zero. And to get back to the original poster's question - I've heard of Kessler boards breaking. And I've heard of Oxess, SG, Coiler, Jasey Jay, Black Pearl and F2 breaking. If someone builds an unbreakable board, you won't want to ride it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 I could be proved wrong but last i heard there has not been a metal Coiler failure, I ride my Metal Coiler with a plate with great confidence in the board builder. The plate builder, well ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, we'll see. All boards break. Including Coliers, I have seen broken metal and broken non metal boards from all manufactors. In the past I have heard people in the industry, blame, bindings, boots and now plates for the falures. I personally think there is no one or thing to blame for failure, it is the fault of the wood and lamanites. If you do a search here for boards breaking you can clearly see that there always has been and always will be broken boards. I always think the same thing, better the board then your body. I have seen boards break mid turn, during crashes, involving trees, lift towers, other people, even delam while going straight. Boards are made of wood, wood breaks. Have you ever walked through a forest and not seen a downed tree? Yet we still use wood to build lots of things while knowing it can and may break, snowboards included. You could built a board that doesn't break but you would hate the way it rode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 All boards break. Including Coliers, I have seen broken metal and broken non metal boards from all manufactors. In the past I have heard people in the industry, blame, bindings, boots and now plates for the falures. I personally think there is no one or thing to blame for failure, it is the fault of the wood and lamanites. If you do a search here for boards breaking you can clearly see that there always has been and always will be broken boards. I always think the same thing, better the board then your body. I have seen boards break mid turn, during crashes, involving trees, lift towers, other people, even delam while going straight. Boards are made of wood, wood breaks. Have you ever walked through a forest and not seen a downed tree? Yet we still use wood to build lots of things while knowing it can and may break, snowboards included. You could built a board that doesn't break but you would hate the way it rode. Best post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Varsava Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) All boards break. Including Coliers, I have seen broken metal and broken non metal boards from all manufactors. In the past I have heard people in the industry, blame, bindings, boots and now plates for the falures. I personally think there is no one or thing to blame for failure, it is the fault of the wood and lamanites. If you do a search here for boards breaking you can clearly see that there always has been and always will be broken boards. I always think the same thing, better the board then your body. I have seen boards break mid turn, during crashes, involving trees, lift towers, other people, even delam while going straight. Boards are made of wood, wood breaks. Have you ever walked through a forest and not seen a downed tree? Yet we still use wood to build lots of things while knowing it can and may break, snowboards included. You could built a board that doesn't break but you would hate the way it rode. OK now its getting personal and since we have a night off at ECES I can put in my opinions. Firstly I feel failure due to what can be considered normal usage and failure due to abnormal stresses are not to be put into the same category as some here seem so quickly to do so. Every year I do have a few boards break but under circumstances which this certainly can be expected ( mostly crashes) Boards may be made of wood but if you look closely you may also notice they have other things put onto and into them to reinforce the wood in many ways. I can proudly say that in the last 4 seasons since releasing Titanal boards you could count my number of warranty related replacements on one hand. As a matter of fact, if I screwed up on my bandsaw and cut off all my fingers ( including thumb) you could still count the warranty issues on that hand! Yes ZERO. While I may have walked through a forest and seen a downed tree, I have never seen one properly wrapped in Titanal and glass/carbon have any troubles(-: Failures in the binding areas can and should be able to be eliminated as it is such a small area that reinforcement in that area does not add much weight. Having a set of inserts pull out while riding aggressively is something that we should strive to never let happen as it can happen at bad times and possibly have bad consequences. Fortunately most of the problem are not catastrophic to the rider as the top skin of the board will almost always hold things together. However it is catastrophic to the board and can certainly spoil the day of a rider who figures he did nothing wrong. There is always a bit of friction between board builders and hardware manufacturers as they can bring out a new product which has unknown stresses on the boards and we do not have the time to do long term testing which may be required to get results either one way of the other. As you can imagine, I have seen the inside of most major types of boards and it is a matter of the way they are assembled with associated reinforcement ( or lack thereof) which can greatly affect the longevity of the board under the stresses of high performance riding. IMO these insert related problems are in boards that just do not have enough reinforcement to bring the margin of safety up to where it should be. The plates may be adding additional stresses which were unknown during the time of manufacturing that board so its not really fair to blame the boards since they were not designed to handle the associated stress now being put on them. However if the hardware becomes commonly accepted, its up to the board manufacturer to hopefully come up with a solution to handle the additional stress. The 4x4 system does put a lot of stress on that area while the UPM spreads it out a bit more so the same level of reinforcement in each of those ares can most likely be of different levels. If you open up your failed board and find it just relies on the wood core to hold the inserts with no additional reinforcement, its most likely going to fail as the quoted lumberjack has stated. It somewhat boils down to time and money as doing that additional work can increase production times( $) and some may feel its easier to just replace the odd board which blows up or make excuses and leave the riders out of luck Edited March 1, 2012 by Bruce Varsava Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger jr Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 I guess if Coilers don't break, I don't want to ride them ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 OK now its getting personal Bruce, How is it personal? You build boards, you know boards break? I have seen broken boards with your companys logo on them, I dont blame the manufactor or the way the board was assembled, I understand that the materials used to make the board may fail. If I would have said Coliers are crap and break all the time and really need to be reworked because of their failure rate, then that would be personal. But that would also be a lie. But as we both know I enjoy your products, and your pride and craftsmanship that goes into each one. I have seen boards fail from all manufactors and they as well are trying to make the best product possible. I am sure you have a high sucsess rate currently and was not questioning the durability of any particular brand including Coiler. The fact that wood is the core materal and wood fails was my point. Carbon- fails , titinal-fails. **** breaks sometimes. If the breakage is cause by issues with inserts, leverage or forced hinge points then of coarse these designs need to be reworked. "While I may have walked through a forest and seen a downed tree, I have never seen one properly wrapped in Titanal and glass/carbon have any troubles(-:" Kesslers, SGs and other manufactors also wrap the wood with Titanal and glass/carbon, and here we are discussing Kesslers breaking. perhaps the arguement would be they are not properly wrapped, but they have failed. As you can imagine, I have seen the inside of most major types of boards and it is a matter of the way they are assembled with associated reinforcement ( or lack thereof) which can greatly affect the longevity of the board under the stresses of high performance riding. Since this discussion envoles you and I, I think this is a great statement and one I fully support, I just had to place a SG back into the press to fix a impact issue, I dont blame the SG build quailty but the impact. I do beleave that this is the case in so many sports that invole racing, that the duribilty of a product is sacrifised in exchange for the proformance characteristics. the water kite race board that wins everything only has about a six month life span but is faster then anything else on the water, intill it breaks or breaks down. If I want a more durable board then I lose proformance, that is the consumers call to make when they buy a board, and the manufactors call when it comes to what type of warrenty they offer. Once a board breaks out side the warrenty period it may never be documented by the manufactor, which keeps you from having to worry about your fingers on the band saw. If the case you are making is that your boards are more durable then Kesslers based on your warrenty claims, then you should make it here on the forum. The response I made was that all boards break. The fact that I quoted a guy claiming coilers don't break was just by chance, since I have seen boards from all manufactors break. I have never had to warrenty a Coiler becuase I don't sell or ride them. I hope you enjoy the rest of ECES nice chating with you as always. BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrutton Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Good point Bordy. Many sports offer different construction equipment based upon the needs of the user - eg for kayak racing, users typically own a training boat and a racing boat; the training boat having a few more layers of glass or less carbon and more glass; the race boat would be full foam core/carbon. You can kind of see that with the boards that go on sale here, often a racer will be trying to sell a backup training board or their main racing stick. Maybe they are same construction, maybe not if full custom; I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeho730 Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.k-snow.com%2Fkessler%2Fproducts%2Fcompare.html Kessler Japan states that for silver model the durability is around 80 days, 50 days for top racers. A friend of mine heard that around 10% of Kessler boards get warranty related issues in Japan or Korea. I believe this might have been pre-11/12 season though, now Kessler makes the non-custom production boards at Kessler factory so I've heard the durability might have improved. Edited March 2, 2012 by leeho730 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darko714 Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 "Kessler Japan states that for silver model the durability is around 80 days, 50 days for top racers." Thank You leeho730! This is the sort of information I need, especially when considering buying a used board. Bordy is right, of course. Eventually, all boards fail. The problem with a Kessler failing is that it costs twice as much. I wonder what the durability is for the black model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeho730 Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 The Kessler Japan website says both black and white ones are better than the silver ones in terms of durability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powdahbonz Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Maybe this is a case of what really is a Kessler...is it a custom built by HJ in Braunwald or is it a Kessler made elswhere by an OEM manufacturer for Kessler? Is the color of the Kessler indicating what you have? Probably not. At ECES, I saw a couple of board casualties...both involved plates, one Coiler (impact/crash related) and I don't know that anything would have changed the board failure but certainly not related to bruce's work IMO and one Virus on Thursday and maybe it was conditions related..who knows... Equipment breaks-I don't want it to happen to me but figure it will eventually. Finding the appropriate tool for the job is what I think is most necessary, i.e. is riding a Carbon Fiber board in stuff that you could fold the nose on a good idea? Probably not...so I got off of it and put it back in the rack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeho730 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Actually I kinda think it's wrong to assume Snowboards are supposed to break. Sure they break but they're classified as equipments not consumables/stationary and thus are supposedly last for x amount of years. For example in Australia and New Zealand if you buy snowboards for business purpose they full depreciate in 2 years. For comparison, a car depreciates in 4 years. That is, according to the law snowboards/skis are supposed to last for 2 years, i.e. about 500 days. I mean, yeah, according to the tax structure a car is supposed to last 4 years, but you'd be pissed if it breaks down and becomes unusable after 4 years.... Yet somehow we are supposed to accept that if one snowboard can only be used for 80 days it's a norm? I don't know much but back in the days skis were cheaper but we took greater care and if it got damaged we repaired it and tried to use it as long as possible and we cherishede it.... Nowadays if it breaks we're supposed to buy a new one despite it being equipment not consumable... It's like someone throwing car away because it broke.... We live in the world where spending is a virtue and yeah in alpine snowboarding world we need to keep spending in order to continuously support our niche sport but I recon there gotta be a limit and snowboard manufactueres need to step up and make sure they're durable at least up to what the tax system suggests but what can I say we also live in the world where everyone tries to avoid responsibilities or loathes to do something for free and profit is more important than craftmanship oor have that usual "people will buy anyway so press the ignore button" attitude... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apex Insider Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) There's a big difference between saying "snowboards can break" and "snowboards are supposed to break". I don't think anyone would agree with the latter. To use your analogy, cars also break. Even brand new cars break. Could be a manufacturing defect. Could be an accident or driver abuse. Take your brand new Toyota Camry to Nurburgring, run it at the limit for 50 laps and I guarantee it will break. My hat goes off to snowboard builders for making product that takes the kind of abuse that we dish out. In 20 years of snowboarding, I've only had one board break. It was a Coiler and it was 100% my fault. So there you go - Coilers break. I was so pi**ed off with Bruce and his breakable snowboards that I've bought two more since. Edited March 7, 2012 by Apex Insider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffV Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 I was so pi**ed off with Bruce and his breakable snowboards that I've bought two more since. Love it Henry:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.