2011/2012 UPZ Boots

[nurse ben]

Randy Kight Hey Nurse B, what are your thoughts on changing out the soles on the RC10's for the ones on the ATB's? I'm currious what this will accomplish?

I'm mostly interested in bc use, hiking, as well as adding some dynafittings, and since I don't plan to ride super narrow boards, sole length is not a big deal.

I got out my RTR and was comparing them to the ATB, there's a big difference in the stiffness of the boot material, where the RTR is typical firm pbex, the ATB boot material feels almost rubbery.

Anyone have a chance to compare the RC 10 to the RTR?

[queequeg]

I will invest in a few pairs of thicker smartwool socks for this winter. I've been using ultra-thin synthetic material socks so I can have room for toe warmers...though, now that i think about it....the toe warmers never work that well for me because aren't they activated and fueled by oxygen? hm...new thread time.

This probably won't make your feet any happier: if your feet fit correctly with proper socks; putting on extra thick socks will result in more pressure being exerted on your foot and decreasing circulation. Poor circulation will cause your feet to get cold very quickly. If your boots fit fine with the thick socks, you'll probably be swimming around in your boots, which can lead to blisters or hot spots. Thin socks + thermo liner + good fit = as good as it gets. If you still have problems with cold feet with a good fitting, properly moulded liner and thin socks, you could add a set of thermic heaters to your boots ... but that is an expensive pain in the ass in my experience.

And unless the liners have changed this year (dubious): yes—they suck—although some people will disagree with me on this.

[Puddy Tat]

My ATBs arrived today so I'll give you my initial impression.

Boot shell

First off the translucent red looks way cooler than I thought it was going to. I'm liking the look of the boot.

The boot shell as the same as any of the other boots in the UPZ line. But the material is so much softer. So soft in fact that even though my feet are phenomenally screwed up (flat, bone spurs, jutting out ankle bone) when I put the boot on and tightened everything down I was having difficulty telling if I would need any boot fitting done.

Boot heels

The shells came with the heels already t-nutted for installing step-ins. Thank you UPZ! I know this has been an issue for most of us here. The boots come with riser pads, screws (#2 Phillips) and locknuts for the installation of step-ins as well. UPZ calls the riser pads "shock absorbing plates" and has supplied them to be installed between your step-in and the boot shell. My personal opinion is this acts more to shim the step-in in line with the toe piece than it is for shock absorption.

All mounting screws on the boot, with the exception of the eight screws supplied for step-ins are torx heads in one of two sizes. UPZ supplies two torx keys for all of these. I removed the boots existing heels, which required twelve screws for each heel, and installed Fintec heels.

Boot toe piece

I mentioned in a post above that it looked like UPZ had modified the toe block because there was apparently some issues with them fitting into some bindings. I had heard there was a problem with Bombers in particular. I can confirm that there is no interference or issue with this years toe piece and a TD3 step-in. The toe pieces are attached with a beefy screw but are not t-nutted. Which based on the design of the toe piece, boot interface I don't think is a problem. If you have issues with this take it to another thread please.

Both the toe and heel have a much more aggressive sole which looks like it would help provide stability while hiking. Unfortunately I lost half of this when I installed the step-ins.

Boot tongue

The red tongue is really soft. In fact the only way I can really describe it's consistency is rubbery. This tongue will not impede the flex of the boot in any noticeable way. In fact the tongue folded easily out of the way when I was putting the boot on.

Spring Mechanism

This appear to be similar to what is on my RTRs though I suspect the springs are much softer based on how much I can flex the boot.

Liners

The ATB uses what are called a Flo adaption liner which is definitely different than the ones used in my RTRs. The tongue is much softer than the RTRs, and doesn't impede the boot flex. The heel cup held my heel snuggly enough that i couldn't notice any movement. I was initially going to replace these with a Deeluxe 141 because I have had nothing but problems with liners with tongues, but I think I'll hold off and give these a shot.

Stiffness

Ok I'm 230lbs, and having been riding in, and flexing the snot out of RTRs, I know how to put pressure down and flex a boot. The boots are literally flexy enough to hike around in! I then stepped onto my AM board on the carpet which is set up with angles of 50/45 and TD3 step-ins. Laterally the boots seem to be stiff enough that, at hardboot angles, they would allow me to respectably carve a turn on our Rocky Mountain snow and are soft enough forward that I could absorb chop or suck up huge landings. Read as "I could flex the sh!t outta 'em". As a comparison laterally they feel like a Track 225, though forward and back they feel much softer because the spring allows a controlled forward and rearward flex. My opinion is with these I probably wouldn't require Sidewinders.

Conclusion

I'm a 230 lbs freak who has given up riding softboots completely. I ride UPZ RTRs with Fintecs into TD3 step-ins on a 173 Schtub for carving, but have been trying to put together a good AM set-up that fill feel floaty and surfy. I bought a custom 167 Donek last year outfitted with TD3 Step-ins and tried it with a set of Deeluxe 225s last year, and while it worked, no amount of boot fitting was able to allow me to ride the Deeluxe boots for longer than three hours with out pain.

I purchased the ATBs specifically for AM riding. The intention is mostly for light carving, off trail, trees, pow, and jumping. Personally I think these boots could be great in those applications. Perhaps with a slightly stiffer tongue it might even acceptably float between carving and AM really nicely.

I'll re-post this as a thread in the boot reviews section and update that thread in January once I have had a chance to ride these a few times. Normally it would be earlier than that bit I'm in an MBA program right now and I'm slightly pressed for time.

Cheers,

Dave

[Allee]

This probably won't make your feet any happier: if your feet fit correctly with proper socks; putting on extra thick socks will result in more pressure being exerted on your foot and decreasing circulation. Poor circulation will cause your feet to get cold very quickly.

He's right on that. I bought a new pair of socks last year - I was very excited to wear them, thinking they'd be cozier than my ageing Smartwools - and they were, right up until I discovered the very nasty, multicoloured, second degree frostbite on my big toe. Make sure you have enough wiggle room if your circulation is bad. Frostbite is not fun.

[xy9ine]

Hey, guys that have the boots either from this year or from recent years....Are the liners in these junk?

mine fit perfect out of the box - all day comfort. love the things.

[Randy Kight]

Thanks for the incredible review Dave, and your time. You and I tip the scales exactly. After reading your review, think what I'm going to do is this years RC10 and some sidewinders, and maybe play with the soles a bit as Nurse Ben has suggested, if I feel the need.

[nurse ben]

Dave's review is similar to my experience, the ATB's are super soft, so great for certain uses like off piste hardbooting, soft snow carving, places where a soft boot would be common, but they're not really that stiff.

The tongue is super soft, so is the shell, they might benefit from a stiffer tongue, but then they'd no longer be super soft ;

I have all three tongues, so if I'm feeling frisky, I might try the black tongue in one ATB and the grey in the other, though my first thought is that the shell of the boot is soft like the tongues, so a stiffer tongue is just going to force the shell to deform more.

I played with the RTR and ATB last night, swapping RTR liners and Scarpa liners (softer, wrap style) back and forth and I found that with a set of soft liners and the RTR liners I could literally make four distinctly different boot flexes.

I decided to get some of the AT/boarding soles for the RTR and try that first, just wish they had dynafitting and were a little less expensive ($109!!).

[Puddy Tat]

If you aren't riding step-ins then the ATB heel and toe pieces are much better than then existing toe pieces. By better I mean better traction and lateral stability for walking around.

With Step-ins you need to install the "shock absorbing plate" to shim up the heel. It's a bit of pity actually because I really prefer the ATB toe and Heel blocks.

FWIW and this is only my own unsupported opinion, I'm a little leary of sticking a flexible plate between the step-in and the boot shell. The screws are protected from loosening under the changing loading by lock washers, but becuase the intec/fintec doesn't drectly mate with the boot shell there is a levering action on the screws. This makes me wonder if this could cause metal fatigue failure of the screws over time. That being said I installed the plate and am giving it a shot, there are four screws, if fatigue does occur hopefully they won't all shear at once. :)

Cheers,

Dave

[nurse ben]

Does messing with snow gear extend your season?

Anyway, I did some tongue swapping yesterday to avoid doing chores:

The RTR plastic is much harder than the ATB plastic, so I though a stiffer tongue would lead to more shell distortion on the ATB, but it didn't :)

There was not that much difference between the Black (120 medium flex) and the Grey (140 hard flex) on the ATB. The black tongue added some resilience and seemed to compliment the ATB's softer shell, so I left those tongues installed. Overall the feel was similar to the RTR w/ Black tongue, but with less shell distortion and a slightly softer flex. I like it

With the ATB in mind, I had originally purchased the RTR to make a poor man's ATB for my son who "so far" is more of a soft booter. Since I now had some extra tongues, I swapped out tongues to Red (100 soft flex) and removed one buckle. Flex on the RTR w/ Red tongue was still slightly stiffer than the ATB with a Black (120 medium flex) tongue, I'd say it is a step up in stiffness equal to the difference between the Black and Grey tongues. Since I weigh 200# and my son weighs 150#, I guess I'll be using the RTR when he's riding hardboot :rolleyes:

Now all I need to do is swap out soles to the AT/Boarding kit and I have two pairs of ATB's :)

It's a shame the spare tongues and sole kits are so expensive ($105 plus S/H), similar products by other mfgs are 1/2-2/3 that price, but once you have them it's a keeper in terms of retrofits and tweaking, just so long as the shell mold doesn't change.

Of the tongue mods I worked on, the ATB with Black (120 med flex) was the nicest upgrade, takes away that noodly flex and gives them a little firmer feel without taking away that soft ride feel.

Count down for snow season:

Bindings mounted, boots modified, check

Boards waxed, check

Pass purchased to Brighton, check

Airline reservation to SLC, check

Seven weeks and counting down!

[Corey]

FWIW and this is only my own unsupported opinion, I'm a little leary of sticking a flexible plate between the step-in and the boot shell. The screws are protected from loosening under the changing loading by lock washers, but becuase the intec/fintec doesn't drectly mate with the boot shell there is a levering action on the screws. This makes me wonder if this could cause metal fatigue failure of the screws over time. That being said I installed the plate and am giving it a shot, there are four screws, if fatigue does occur hopefully they won't all shear at once. :)

I had the same concern Dave! Those bolts are hyper-critical, and this will put them in a condition no sane engineer would ever allow on their designs. Maybe it's fine, I don't know. I also am skeptical about the regular (non-step-in) ATB heel piece, it cantilevers the heel strap pretty far away from the actual heel. Again, maybe it's fine but it has me concerned.

All that said, I won't give up my RC-10s anytime soon as they just fit my feet/ankles/riding. Shame about the gimmicky heel that's so far forward and the stupidly slippery toe pad.

[Puddy Tat]

I had the same concern Dave! Those bolts are hyper-critical, and this will put them in a condition no sane engineer would ever allow on their designs. Maybe it's fine, I don't know. I also am skeptical about the regular (non-step-in) ATB heel piece, it cantilevers the heel strap pretty far away from the actual heel. Again, maybe it's fine but it has me concerned.

All that said, I won't give up my RC-10s anytime soon as they just fit my feet/ankles/riding. Shame about the gimmicky heel that's so far forward and the stupidly slippery toe pad.

Yeah I agree, my plan is to ride them hard and keep an eye on the heels, then pull the heels and check the interface in Febuary, if everything looks ok I'll give it to the end of the season. If at some point things are looking a little screwy (pun intended) I'm going to swap the toe pieces to the RC-10 version and ditch the flexible shim plate. There are four screws on each heel so the chance of the worst case scenario (all four-screws on one heel failing simultaneously) are I think probably remote enough that I'm comfortable riding like this. That being said I'm still keeping an eye on it.

Dave

[zoltan]

It's frustrating to me than Dan refuses to import the RC-8. It slots in so nicely between the RC-10 and ATB, but he just drives people to the RC-10 and then suggests a softer tongue. Ok, but that's an additional expense on an already expensive boot, and it doesn't make the shell itself any softer.

[nurse ben]

I asked Dan if he'd swap parts on a new boot, ie AT sole for the carving sole, and he said no. It would be nice if you could get a new boot with options, like changing the sole or tongue, esp if you know what you want.

I retrofitted my RTR with a soft tongue (from my ATB) and an Board/AT sole ($105) instead of buying another pair of boots. If I had been allowed to customize, I would have purchased new RC 10 with the AT sole and soft tongue. As it stands, I'd have to purchase everything seperate at a cost of ~$835

If UPZ/Virus were savvy, they'd allow the retailer to swap parts in order to sell a new boot, it would do no harm and it would certainly sell more boots. It might even make UPZ the boot of choice, customizabity is very cool.

[Gcarve]

If UPZ/Virus were savvy, they'd allow the retailer to swap parts in order to sell a new boot, it would do no harm and it would certainly sell more boots. It might even make UPZ the boot of choice, customizabity is very cool.

I couldn't agree more! After all, we can order custom carving boards to suit our requirements, why not have a boot that we can custom order to meet our needs?

[Puddy Tat]

It's frustrating to me than Dan refuses to import the RC-8. It slots in so nicely between the RC-10 and ATB, but he just drives people to the RC-10 and then suggests a softer tongue. Ok, but that's an additional expense on an already expensive boot, and it doesn't make the shell itself any softer.

His approach does make some sense. Unlike Deeluxes the forward flex of a UPZ boots isn't supposed to be dependant on flexing the shell. It is dependant on the tongue and how the springs are set-up. Therefore going to a softer tongue will create a more flexible boot. Lateral stiffness is of course all shell.

I'm interested in trying the ATB boot with the black tongue, and snowboard toeblocks. I think that might be where its at for me. It is rather cool that teh boot is this customizable, though it is a little expensive to do it.

[Randy Kight]

Pretty sure I'm going to grab a pair or these boots. Was going to get a pair of the TD3 SW's as well. Any issues with these guys not fitting easily?

[Puddy Tat]

Pretty sure I'm going to grab a pair or these boots. Was going to get a pair of the TD3 SW's as well. Any issues with these guys not fitting easily?

UPZs fit wider in the toe box and narrower in the heels. Other than that I can't say. My feet are pretty screwed so any boot would normally take me several trips to a bootfitter before everything gets comfy.

Maybe someone else can chime in.

[Randy Kight]

UPZs fit wider in the toe box and narrower in the heels. Other than that I can't say. My feet are pretty screwed so any boot would normally take me several trips to a bootfitter before everything gets comfy.

Maybe someone else can chime in.

My apologies Puddy Tat...what I meant by "fitting issues" was regarding the boot interfacing with the SideWinders...not my ugly paws... ;)

I noticed in the bomber store last night that their was mention of certain boots not fitting these bindings correctly, and grew concerned that UPZ's might be one of such.

Thanks again,

Randy

[dingbat]

Anyone know if there's a shop in the North East that stocks UPZ?

[nurse ben]

I don't have Sidewinders or any Bomber bindings to try, but the ATB fit fine in Snopro and Nidecker. I did trim back some of the rubber outsole along the heels edges to clear the wires and allow the boot heel to sit flat.

The only fit issue I can see that would be hard to fix is if the lid sole interferes with the Bomber bindings, like the wires/rods, so more a width fit issue. I guess it's also possible that sole width on the binding plate could be a problem.

So, Sidewinders and ATB, hmm, that's a lot of lateral flex, maybe too much? The lateral flex in the ATB is soft due to having a softer shell AND a softer sole, so there's lots of side to side play.

[Puddy Tat]

My apologies Puddy Tat...what I meant by "fitting issues" was regarding the boot interfacing with the SideWinders...not my ugly paws... ;)

I noticed in the bomber store last night that their was mention of certain boots not fitting these bindings correctly, and grew concerned that UPZ's might be one of such.

Thanks again,

Randy

Ah ok. FWIW I have no problem with my RTRs fitting into a TD3 step-in, and the RC-10 uses the same, (or extremely similar) mold with a different plastic. I know last years ATB apparently had some problems fitting into certain bindings because of the shape of the toe block, but as I mentioned in the review it fits into my TD3s step-ins with no issue.

Where UPZs might present a problem, is that they have pushed the heel of the boot forward to create a shorter boot sole. Therefore the boot fits into a shorter space between the toe and heel bail (or step-in adaptor) than an equivalently sized boot by another manufacturer. People with smaller feet have had problems fitting them into TD3s, because the sole length of the boot falls below the minimum adjustment range of the binding. No problem with a mondo 28 boot in terms of sole length.

Corey had a nice post somewhere about how he considers the shorter sole to be a bit of a marketing gimmick. I agree with him on this, as I find that in order to really lay a board over the entire boot must be positione inside the edges of the board. Realistically the boot cuff becomes the limiting factor in this situation as the heel of the boot is positioned well inside the edge of the board.

Cheers,

Dave

[kieran]

Corey had a nice post somewhere about how he considers the shorter sole to be a bit of a marketing gimmick. I agree with him on this, as I find that in order to really lay a board over the entire boot must be positione inside the edges of the board. Realistically the boot cuff becomes the limiting factor in this situation as the heel of the boot is positioned well inside the edge of the board.

when you shorten the toeblock-heel distance, you can make greater fore/aft adjustments on your bindings. this is of particular use to those of us with big feets.

[Corey]

I can confirm that you can fit size 27 RC-10s on Sidewinders. The only problem is that the blocks completely cover the 3 bolts you loosen to change your foot angles, and one of the 4x4 bolts (depending on which holes you use). If you flip them around backwards you lose the hard stops which are a huge selling point of the TD3s over the TD2s.

I didn't have much adjustment range left on the heels with a 27 UPZ on the sidewinders. When going smaller you'll run out of adjustment and end up with your foot being shifted towards the heel, unless you're willing to lose the hard stops.

With really big feet you'd run out of toe adjustment well before the heels do, so it won't really help.

[Puddy Tat]

when you shorten the toeblock-heel distance, you can make greater fore/aft adjustments on your bindings. this is of particular use to those of us with big feets.

Does it make a difference though, as the toe-to-cuff distance hasn't changed?

[Randy Kight]

I can confirm that you can fit size 27 RC-10s on Sidewinders. The only problem is that the blocks completely cover the 3 bolts you loosen to change your foot angles, and one of the 4x4 bolts (depending on which holes you use). If you flip them around backwards you lose the hard stops which are a huge selling point of the TD3s over the TD2s.

I didn't have much adjustment range left on the heels with a 27 UPZ on the sidewinders. When going smaller you'll run out of adjustment and end up with your foot being shifted towards the heel, unless you're willing to lose the hard stops.

With really big feet you'd run out of toe adjustment well before the heels do, so it won't really help.

thanks for the input Corey_D. Much appreciated. So, it does not sound like it based on your post, but to make sure I'm clear, with the 27.0 RC10's, there is no problem getting the boot centered on the binding whatsoever? As this is what I'm most concerned about, as I don't want to have to run healwards or toewards on the board because of a limitation. Also, if there is no problem centering this size boot on this binding, I'm not as concerned about covering the mounting/angulation screws...UNLESS, these bolts need frequent checking. Silly questions I realize, but better to ask this stuff upfront then deal with later.

thanks again for the time,

Randy