Are Private Lessons Legal?

[noschoolrider]

Over the past 20 years I have experienced 100% success in obtaining permission to teach clinics at every US ski resort that I have contacted.

I also have permission to teach/clinic/coach at my local resort as often as I want, and I am not one of their employees and they do not allow concession ski schools. Getting the resort to give you permission is all about your approach and your proposal.

I use a unique approach that I’m not going to share here, but basically it’s based upon the concept of a mutually beneficial relationship, and I’m sure that my professional background and certification have also helped me get permission.

All of the resorts I have worked with have given me discounted (or free) lift tickets, and some resorts require that everyone signs a release, and some resorts have also requested a list of my clients but it was never mandatory. I also do not actively solicit or promote my services on resort property, which keeps them happy.

Mark (utahcarver), I thought you might like to know that I do have permission from Powder Mountain, Wolf Mountain, and Sun Valley (who also owns Snowbasin).

My suggestion to Atom Ant (the original poster) is that you should contact the ski resort in advance and ask for permission and if you are serious you should consider becoming a certified instructor and/or coach.

Best regards,

Don Richter

[lafcadio]

So they can't prohibit you from walking up the mountain, unless it is say avalanche control related then they can close access.

Really? I've seen signs prohibiting hiking at many resorts. I've always assumed it was targeted at those attempting to avoid buying a lift ticket.

[Steve Prokopiw]

I agree with your point on the approach.Although some resorts are supremely(and corporately) protective of everything from revenue to product quality and image, there is often a common ground between a professional not in the employee pool and the prospective resort.Even the Vails of the snow sports world have been known to reach outside their proverbially proprietary boxes if the provider of the product has professional and,or celebrity marketability.As a Vail instructor I was fortunate enough to be able to work within several camps for the likes of the Chris Karol ,the Delaney bros and Boone Lennon.

Still,I have to admit I was always impressed with the entrepreneurial fortitude of a certain friend that tried to make a go of it outside the corporation.He might have succeeded if he had gone about it in the manner some you and others have suggested in this thread.

Despite my political view on the subject of public land usage,I should have stated earlier that the mountain I am making my proposals to is on private land.That,of course,does not lessen the need for professionalism on my part.

I should also mention that I did take a certain amount of pride in working for the Vail Ski and Snowboard School(and roaming the vast and highly underrated carving terrain) despite how different the attitudes were from pod to pod.For example,by the time I left Vail to move up here,I would not have been allowed to teach in hardboots at Lionshead(where I was once the snowboard foreman before returning to teaching), but was encouraged to use what worked best for my ability to be the best instructor I could be at the Vail Village pod,where I was based my last six seasons in the school.I was very fortunate while there to share a tiny,dank locker room with several of the best and most productive ski and snowboard instructors in the industry(for example,Lowell Hart,Chris Sandoski,and the late Jeff Patterson,god rest his soul).

Much like you,Don,(an instructor to whom I would happily refer any client I've ever had)I have been at this a very long time and have become confident in my ability to provide an excellent experience to my clientele.Despite the risks,having one's own operation,however small,without the constraints of falling into the corporate line,is part of the American Dream.I wish you continued success.

[Ian M]

This is a very interesting discussion, and as with any good topic there are multiple points of view that are valid and make sense to each of us. Teaching carving is something that I've only recently undertaken, but am quite passionate about.

From the perspective of a business owner, it certainly would not be agreeable for an instructor to come and make money on my private property (for the most part in Canada) without my permission or perhaps a financial agreement.

From the perspective of a passionate carving instructor, it doesn't seem reasonable to invest so much time and money developing my teaching skills and certifications and then work for very little money at one hill. Additionally, if the snow school requires a time commitment, the balance of it will be time spent teaching beginner turns on soft boots - a truly worthy endeavor, certainly, but in no way my current passion.

Two very reasonable compromises have been suggested; either teach informally free-of-charge, or develop your own arrangements with each resort as Don suggested above. I already do the former, and will be looking into the latter this season.

Many thanks for all of your thoughts,

Cheers!

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Really? I've seen signs prohibiting hiking at many resorts. I've always assumed it was targeted at those attempting to avoid buying a lift ticket.

Example of one of my home ski areas. MHM

Timberline has an interesting policy due to the thousands of visting climbers choosing to summit Mt Hood from Timberline Ski area. Once in a while you still run into climbers hiking up or down the groomers

MHM Policy/

Avalanche Awareness

Status for 5-14-2011

No avalanche hazard reduction will be in progress on Saturday, May 14, 2011. Stay clear of the permit area, no uphill traffic within the permit area and use designated hiking routes when accessing the backcountry. Thank you for your cooperation.

Designated hiking routes are:

1.North Boundary - Turn right at the first Heather Canyon Runout sign to exit the Mt. Hood Meadows / Forest Service permit area towards the Newton drainage. Please do not go further uphill into the Canyon.

2.South Boundary – Proceed along Mitchell Creek boundary accessing along the tree line skiers right of Buttercup Lift (to your left has you climb uphill).

Ask Ski Patrol for additional information.

Mt. Hood Meadows has created this page in an effort to inform backcountry skiers and snowboarders of current Avalanche Reduction efforts within the Meadows permit boundary. Meadows uses remote delivery systems, including Artillery, for avalanche reduction. This work may be in progress at any time within the permit area. Information about current avalanche control work can be found on this web page, as well as by phone at (503) 337.2222 ext. 1705.

Obey all posted signs and closures

[Skully]

Last season, I was the recipient of some excellent coaching on-hill at a northern Utah ski area. Because this ski area, as well as ALL other Utah ski areas don't offer 'hard-booting, carving, racing, or alpine-style riding' lessons or coaching or anything related to this subject, I was forced to obtain coaching, lessons, from someone I hired to teach me.

Just want to clarify that there ARE options in Utah for Alpine coaching / instruction (besides FAST - working with Chris K would be incredible...) Both The Canyons and Park City have qualified folks that can teach hardboot lessons (The Park City instructor being the most qualified.)

Maybe what Mark meant is that there were no AFFORDBLE options. Firsthand knowledge from The Canyons is that if someone wants hardboot-specific instruction, they are required to book a full-day private. I'm not sure about Park City, but more than likely it is close to the same. Show up with hardboots to a group lesson expecting specfic instruction, and you'll get some blank stares. Due to the extremely small demand for hardboot specific instruction, it's also highly unlikely that an instructor with the gear and knowledge to teach alpine would actually have that gear readily available without prior warning either...

Back to your normally scheduled "Bomberonline Court TV" programming...

[Puddy Tat]

I still think the best instruction I got was showing up at an Expression Session after two years of riding and seeing both what was possible and how little I actually knew.

[tufty]

I'm curious; Do the lift operators own or lease the land they operate on over there?

Depends. The resort I work at, most of the land is private (i.e. land we lease from farmers), some is public (mainly the forest, but some is what's best considered "common land"), and some is actually owned by the resort itself. I'd guess we're pretty typical.

There's (at least) 3 separate ways lift companies are funded over here - fully private, fully public, or "mixed" where the resort town(s) own a (usually controlling) part of the lift company.

There's no rules against hiking up, either - what we are selling is the use of the lifts, not the use of the slopes. Which also follows that we can't "police" the slopes - we can deny access to the lifts in case of non-compliant equipment (certain lifts are no-go for snowscoots, for example) or take away people's lift passes for dangerous behaviour, but we can't actually ban them from sticking their skis over their shoulder (or skinning up), walking up the hill, and then skiing down.

Obviously, TWIAVBP, so your mileage may vary. But at least here, there's nothing legally stopping you setting yourself up as an independent instructor.

[beckaurora]

In my experience as an instructor, if you look like you're teaching a friend, we'll ignore you and maybe feel sorry for your "victim" as most of the people we see teaching a friend end up taking them down too steep of a trail and yelling at them.

If you look like you're taking business away from ski school and profiting off of it, they probably are not going to take it well.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

In my experience as an instructor, if you look like you're teaching a friend, we'll ignore you and maybe feel sorry for your "victim" as most of the people we see teaching a friend end up taking them down too steep of a trail and yelling at them.

FACT!!!

When people ask me about starting skiing or snowboarding.

Couple suggestions I always include.

TAKE LESSONS, and NOT from your friend!!

(their being a good skier does not make them a good instructor)

(let your friends provide warm ski clothes, googles , a ride up to the mountain, meet them for lunch)

Rent your gear on the mountain. (if something breaks or is not right, you can quickly get it remedied.

Try NOT to go on a weekend.

Sign up for group lessons. They are inexpensive, and you learn allot from watching others. Doing it on a weekday means you may be in a semi private (group)

Welcome to Bomber by the way!!

[Steve Prokopiw]

suggestion...''Hey bud,if you ever want her to go out with you again,the skischool desk is right inside the lodge."

[beckaurora]

suggestion...''Hey bud,if you ever want her to go out with you again,the skischool desk is right inside the lodge."

Sooooo true!

[beckaurora]

I was a certified instructor a while ago and was paid $7.25/hour. The second year I taught I got a raise.... to $7.50/hour.

I'm not certified, but the resort I worked at the past two season, I averaged $4.28/hr because we didn't get paid for all of the hours we had to be there but weren't teaching. Teaching ski school lessons is not the way to get rich, that's for sure.

[carvedog]

Really? I've seen signs prohibiting hiking at many resorts. I've always assumed it was targeted at those attempting to avoid buying a lift ticket.

Private property may be different than public ( ie USFS leased lands) land. I do know that there are some public lands resorts that have been able to implement that restriction as well, but I think they had to prove extenuating safety reasons or something.

I know Jackson Hole arrested and removed someone from hiking up hill to access a ski race area. They even offered him a lift ticket and he said "I don't want a lift ticket, I just want to skin up and watch the race and ski down after". Seems like there must have been something else going on.

I have also seen a buddy arrested at the top of Sun Valley for theft of lift services. He snuck on and had been all season, by hiking up far enough to be able to ski down to an area where they didn't check tix. Worst was he had to download too. Ouch.

So other than the avalanche control issues they don't restrict folks accessing the hill for the most part. Didn't mean to imply all were this way.

[Emdee406]

Just want to clarify that there ARE options in Utah for Alpine coaching / instruction (besides FAST - working with Chris K would be incredible...) Both The Canyons and Park City have qualified folks that can teach hardboot lessons (The Park City instructor being the most qualified.)

Maybe what Mark meant is that there were no AFFORDBLE options. Firsthand knowledge from The Canyons is that if someone wants hardboot-specific instruction, they are required to book a full-day private. I'm not sure about Park City, but more than likely it is close to the same. Show up with hardboots to a group lesson expecting specfic instruction, and you'll get some blank stares. Due to the extremely small demand for hardboot specific instruction, it's also highly unlikely that an instructor with the gear and knowledge to teach alpine would actually have that gear readily available without prior warning either...

Back to your normally scheduled "Bomberonline Court TV" programming...

At Park City I generally only get to teach a handful of Hardboot lessons a season, almost all are Private Half Day lessons with regular clients. I have managed to intercept some riders who were unsure if they wanted to spend that kind of money and told them about the "FREERIDE" group product. This is a normal group lesson price, but told them to say that they rode hard boots so therefore could the instructor be in the same. It meant they got a Private for the price of a group, I got to use my hardboot expertise, the resort got SOME money as opposed to none! Win, win. I did get paid half what I would have got for a Private, but a) they probably wouldn't have booked it and b)it's good PR for the sport and for me.

Many resorts run similar programs so ask, but also give them some notice as Curt is right that most Instructors won't have their Alpine set ups readily available.

[utahcarver]

Over the past 20 years I have experienced 100% success in obtaining permission to teach clinics at every US ski resort that I have contacted.

I also have permission to teach/clinic/coach at my local resort as often as I want, and I am not one of their employees and they do not allow concession ski schools. Getting the resort to give you permission is all about your approach and your proposal.

I use a unique approach that I’m not going to share here, but basically it’s based upon the concept of a mutually beneficial relationship, and I’m sure that my professional background and certification have also helped me get permission.

All of the resorts I have worked with have given me discounted (or free) lift tickets, and some resorts require that everyone signs a release, and some resorts have also requested a list of my clients but it was never mandatory. I also do not actively solicit or promote my services on resort property, which keeps them happy.

Mark (utahcarver), I thought you might like to know that I do have permission from Powder Mountain, Wolf Mountain, and Sun Valley (who also owns Snowbasin).

My suggestion to Atom Ant (the original poster) is that you should contact the ski resort in advance and ask for permission and if you are serious you should consider becoming a certified instructor and/or coach.

Best regards,

Don Richter

I always try and err on the side of caution when posting on the web, dealing with customers, and shaving my MIL's back. I'm glad that you've got your end covered, Don.

Skully and EmDee, my bad for not realizing that I had options when it came to hardboot instruction. I know now that if Don is not available, I still have the option of the SLC areas and the hardboot posse down there. Affordable would be the word, Curt. I look forward to seeing you guys on the hill this season. Please, try and keep up. :)

Mark

[slopestar]

I would love to show up in hardboot regalia and ask for a "lesson" here in So Cal. The funny thing would be to have/see the local instructors follow us turn for turn. I can see the skidding now....

[Emdee406]

I would love to show up in hardboot regalia and ask for a "lesson" here in So Cal. The funny thing would be to have/see the local instructors follow us turn for turn. I can see the skidding now....

Sadly now the Visa regs have changed, it's not going to get any better. No more highly qualified foreign Instructors unless like me, they have Green Cards! The Aussies still had a hardboot element to their Full-Cert course and the Kiwis were encouraged to try it.