Last day of hard booting

[Willow 15]

After reading Stef1's thread about the rapture/enlightenment it got me thinking. Does anyone know any hardbooters who gave it up for soft boot only? I don't mean learners or poor boarders but proficient hardbooters who knows the feeling of major G's in control.

This is probably a crossover thread aswell, powder or cord.

I don't know anyone, but given a chance and equipment plus time I know I could convert some softies.

I still have soft boot set ups but I really don't know why!

[b0ardski]

but I have tried to convert an accomplished softbooter/&skier with no success. I think the availability of gear (or lack thereof) was the primary reason and the comfort of skills already learned 2nd.

Skiers tend to appreciate the carve more than softbooters.

oh well, I'll keep pulling 3s into bump fields, carving hard and hopping to switch before carving off the run into the pow trees under the lift proving by example that plastic boots and stepin plates don't suck:eplus2:

PS pow & cord on the same run turns my crank

[Tatoos]

I do not know anyone who said that it will now be ridden only sotfboots. It's like back from the level of study to nursery school. My fried always said: Ride hard or die trying!

[tpalka]

Ha ha, revert :) You're only a revert if you _started_ on softboots and then moved to hard.

I started on HBs, and after riding lots and lots of days at our not-so-big local resort I switched to riding primarily softies. In between there were years where I rode lots of fakie, worked on jumps, riding boxes, trees, etc. Could I ride better? Of course, but I plateaued a bit, and fun factor decreased. These days I ride hard boots almost only when snow is crappy. Or at other resorts with HB'ing friends.

In a way, HB's are too forgiving -- it takes no effort to make a carve. Using a softer interface gives me lots more ROM and requires a lot more precision. I've been riding with just the front binding (back foot free), and carving that way is a blast :) Sometimes less is more.

I won't forgo HB's completely, they're great at what they do -- but softies have their place too.

It's like back from the level of study to nursery school. My fried always said: Ride hard or die trying!

It's all about your own progression, and where you want to take it. I think carving on one of these would be pretty hard :)

[Corey]

Victoria Jealouse (spelling?)

Didn't either Peter Bauer or Jean Nerva completely quit hardbooting?

I think of it like dirt biking and street biking. They're similar, but very different. Someone that's very good at one will be decent at the other by default after a short adaptation period. A few are good at both, and many prefer one over the other. It's easier to ride a dirt bike around a road course than a street/race bike around a motocross track. That same analogy applies to freestyle vs. alpine boards pretty well.

I don't think there's any less skills needed for one versus another. They're just ways to play on the snow, do whatever you like and applaud those that do the other style well.

[Keenan]

Damian Sanders.

[BlueB]

I believe there are few other Bomberites who switched to softies only.

[valsam]

Geting older(40+) made a couple of my friends turn to softboots for recreational riding because from what they say and from what i see it's more comfortable wearing and riding softies for 7-8 hours,i also was thinking of switching to softboots because of the cramping feeling of harboots and the general discomfort that alpine boards setups have but i just can't give up hardboots yet,because dispite the pain it's still to much damn fun for me !

[Gcarve]

Geting older(40+) made a couple of my friends turn to softboots for recreational riding because from what they say and from what i see it's more comfortable wearing and riding softies for 7-8 hours,i also was thinking of switching to softboots because of the cramping feeling of harboots and the general discomfort that alpine boards setups have but i just can't give up hardboots yet,because dispite the pain it's still to much damn fun for me !

I'm well into my 50's, and I can't even imagine going back to softboots. And for the record, my UPZ RC10's are very comfortable, and I can wear them buckled down tight all day long. And as for Alpine board setups, again it is very comfortable to me as well, and I've never felt that it was causing any pain, ever. Just my .02

[b0ardski]

I'm well into my 50's, and I can't even imagine going back to softboots. And for the record, my UPZ RC10's are very comfortable, and I can wear them buckled down tight all day long. And as for Alpine board setups, again it is very comfortable to me as well, and I've never felt that it was causing any pain, ever. Just my .02

I'm in a similar boat as you Gcarve.

I can wear plastic boots all day with no pain.

When using softies, the uneven pressure across the top of my feet cuts my day short (my stepin burtons are less painful than straps). The only upside I see is for the manufacturers of disposable boots.

Mrs. b0ardski (instructor) can't use straps because of a knob on the top of her foot so we have lots of stepin soft gear.

I never use mine, even in the deepest pow, because my old plastic boots give all the flex and comfort I'll ever need with the added bonus of durability, better response, and the convenience of stepin.

[Mig]

I've been riding for 32 years. Switched to HBs for 6 years in the late 80s early 90s when I was racing. Switched back to SBs when I quit racing cause it was what worked best for me for all around riding (mixing pow, cord, bank slashing on the same run). Never looked back. And always had a carving style.

Been considering getting a HB setup again for the hardpack nightriding for the last few years, since I got back into skateboard slalom racing. Maybe next season will be it... :)

[John Gilmour]

Arguably Vin Q. is the best carving softbooter on the East Coast. He was a damn good hardbooter- one of the best of the Killington Carving Crew. He rode a huge 24/7. Now he rides stiffer soft set ups. Also Pete Jacobs...raging hardbooter swapped to softies, and his riding cohort Liam Barrett- also exclusively in Softies. Most of my hardbooting friends from the 1980's are softbooters...but not all were accomplished carvers. The softboots..well.. some have gotten to be really good at securing your feet to the board without allowing for lateral foot roll within the boot.

I'm trying not to go down that - softies only- path myself. To me it is a cross training sort of thing- and is easier on my feet to switch it up- hard/soft.

But in recent years... the hard boots have become so stiff... and I have had issues with liners packing out in a ridiculous short period of time. Shin bang, foot pain, bunions...cold boots that get too stiff...(my Soft boots change very little according to temp)...Annoying hardboot buckles that are engineered like garbage. The hardboots get taller and heavier... harder to walk in...(I loved the Vibram soles of my old Nordica Tr-9's).

I used to HATE wearing softboots on the slopes... the top of the foot pain was horrible as was the lack of control because my foot could not be stabilized in the liner- heel lift was atrocious, you could overflex a softie and sprain your ankle, they were cold- wet, they broke down easily.. but those were crappy boots from prior to 2006.

After riding a really comfortable quality combination of a 2007 Andy Warhol Burton Boot and Union Force DLX binding ...I see less and less reason to ride hardboots on packed powder or softer conditions. frozen Granular has me wishing for hardboots.... but grooming and snowmaking have made these days less frequent out West.

I can say that I can ride softboots at a higher top end speed more safely on packed powder than hardboots... which is something I never expected....mostly because I can bleed speeds over 55mph easier without initial chatter like with hard boots.

Ultimately I feel that the right boot hasn't been made yet.

But for this season.. I had ONLY 1 day on hardboots (and it was painful), last season perhaps 3, and before that maybe 30, and the year before that perhaps 70-90.

I did feel that it took time to build up both the foot/ankle muscles and technique to not feel like you were handicapped in softboots. and I would expect people to have to give softboots a good 40 days in one season- with tons of adjustment and fiddling (more than a hardboot set up).. or they will continue to feel like they prefer hardboots.

[snowboardfast]

I spent a lot of money and time on softboot gear over the last several seasons and will not go back to soft boots at all due to foot pain on my insteps and the balls of my feet hurt as well no matter what I try to do when riding soft boots. I had cork insoles custom made which I still use in my hardboots. I just can't get my feet comfortable in a softboot set up. I was hoping I could ride softboots because they are cheaper. Maybe it is because I have small feet- size 26 and I weigh 187 too much psi on the balls of my feet. I do not crank the straps down hard on soft bindings and my insteps still hurt no matter what. Also I don't try to over ride a soft boot set up. Also my legs get tired way faster riding softboots especially if I ride steper terrain.I tried both softer and stiffer soft boots and foot pain no matter what. I can ride more runs per day in hardboots with way less fatigue. I am only a so so carver in either set up but am haviing fun and this was season 32. I ride a stiffer pair of hardboots on carve specific boards on groomed snow only and a softer pair of hardboots-Lemans if I ride all mountain. I do not ride trees and don't do freestyle tricks. I would have to understand why a lot of riders have gone back to soft boots only but not for me. I find with the Bomber sidewinder binding that I get a nicer smoother ride than any soft boot set up I have tried. That was the other reason I tried softboots again. I thought that they might be better in choppy snow but if the snow is choppy enough you will get beat around no matter what. I have been way happier with hardboots. If you are just making turns and not jumping and riding rails I don't see why I would want to ride soft boots? Steep terrain is much more fun in hardboots. I also use booster straps on my hardboots most of the time. The booster straps work real well on the lemans boot. Still riding this year rode today at Abasin on Donek metal race board and had a blast. Only a few more days left but amazing season this year. I rode softboots a couple of times this year but will not go back to them at all?

[scrapster]

When it comes to equipment choice, it seems like foot/ankle/shin pain is an X-factor for a solid sub-set of riders. If you experience it, you have to deal with it and follow the solution wherever it leads you.

I've been amazed (and frustrated) at how individual the pain issue can be, especially when you add in that every boot feels different and most binding set-ups do too. Personally, it's led me to spend an outrageous amount of money trying out different products and tweaks--including a brief return to skiing --and has brought a good deal of consternation from friends at family.

After a bad soft boot set up ruined my first-ever trip to Colorado a few years back, I pretty much swore them off. But I've been having much better luck with modern, carve-oriented soft gear lately. Strangely enough though, my most important realization was related to binding angles. My front foot NEEDS to be between 37 and 42 degrees. Again, it's sooooooo weirdly specific to my screwed up feet, but it's proven to be the deal breaker. Go figure...

[b0ardski]

I:1luvu:BOL

It's nice to see both sides of the hard/soft debate expressed articulately, with understanding and civility from both sides:biggthump

If I had the $$$ to blow I would try some K2 t1 boas and top of the line ride or unions and spend the time to dial them in (no foot roll, over flex, etc...).

But going to bulky strap binders from low profile plates and loosing the convenience of stepins would still be a deal breaker for me no matter how light and comfortable.

Besides, my bio-mechanics don't allow me to ride at less than 25/38 degree angles in comfort.

[BigBump]

I gave up hard booting a few seasons ago. I started in softies, enjoyed carving in them and went to a full hardboot set up(Burton Factory Prime 163 and then a season later a Prior WCR 178). Then, I started drifting back to soft boots as my snowboarding world grew beyond just banging turns. These days I ride soft boots on a pure twin 100% of the time in a duck stance. I just enjoy the versatility of that setup. Being able to do trees, steeps, groomer, flatland tricks and park all in one run is really what I prefer now. I ride duck because I do ride/carve switch 50% of the time. I did once go back to my hardboot set up and felt so limited in what I could do. Yes, I could crank carved turns much harder than my sofies, but that was about it. Everything else on the mountain was harder/more awkward/caused foot pain.

[valsam]

If your physical fitness gives up on you and also your muscular structure (legs) after a certain age then its time for a softboot setup just for light cruising and fooling around and forget about park's and big air tricks(because the older you get the loooooonger it takes to heal!)!

In my opinion its easier and more comfartable to buckle up and fool around at slow speeds on a softboot setup and for more hours (wich i find no fun at all!)than with alpine gear!

EC carving and alpine snowboarding demand stamina and leg muscles!

[John Gilmour]

I found that no matter what I tried (up until 2009) in terms of soft booting–most of my movement patterns were really exaggerated, and I had difficulty slowing down at extreme speeds, as well as trouble really laying it over carving.

What helped me the most, was finding a boot with a true articulating cuff that was reasonably stiff, but not overly stiff. Also finding a binding that had absolutely no footplate heelband drag in the heel area (ie your actual heel within the boot is very close to a very thin outer heel band on your footplate. Those two in combination gave me a lot more control. Using "Gilmour bias" was also very helpful–because it allowed me to pressure the front heel for more powerful heel side turns–this allowed me more direct pressure to the heel edge. It also allowed me to ride a slightly wider board and still have edge to edge quickness and not give up powder float.

Of course, if that pressure point of your front heel is nowhere near the middle of the board, (low angles + wide stance...errr....no) it won't be very effective, so I had to use pretty extreme front angle for soft boots–I run 45° in the front. About a 20-21 inch stance.

Then in terms of the toe side, I had to use a lot of "Gilmour bias" for the rear toe (even more than for the heel) –with quite a bit of toe overhang in order to get quick toe side initiation (which is ok tohave overhang because I will be carving hard enough to make a deep rut for the toe (so it doesn't drag) by the time the channel reaches my toe..

But in the end it worked pretty well.

I can say with a great deal of certainty, if I went back to ANY of my older soft boot setups and soft boot bindings I probably would hate it just as much as I did back then.

Fit, is nearly everything. Flexion is the next big hurdle–having too little flexion doesn't allow enough edge pressure, and having an overly stiff soft boot will end up with putting too much and pressure on a softer flexing freeride board. Too soft a boot....and you again lose edge pressure in the turn initiation = BAD...and skid.

Being able to secure your foot both within the inner boot and within the binding is the true key to success.

My current set up has even less foot slop movement than inside hardboots.

[Willow 15]

I:1luvu:BOL

It's nice to see both sides of the hard/soft debate expressed articulately, with understanding and civility from both sides:biggthump

This is a great forum.

Also finding a binding that had absolutely no footplate drag in the heel area.

Which binding are you using John, I would be very interested to know. When I do take out my softie's I am using old C-60's (solid carbon high back) and love the responsiveness but if I get some nice low heelsides in the heel cup is always catching.

Maybe I should go real old school and use both at the same time. Who was the guy back in the day that did? I seem to remember he rode Barfoot, and was his first name John. Damn my old age and senility, i know someone here will tell me.:)

[John Gilmour]

snipped...

I am using old C-60's (solid carbon high back) and love the responsiveness but if I get some nice low heelsides in the heel cup is always catching.

Maybe I should go real old school and use both at the same time. Who was the guy back in the day that did? I seem to remember he rode Barfoot, and was his first name John. Damn my old age and senility, i know someone here will tell me.:)

The C-60 is a killer skidding binding for Boarder X (So say others) though I just can not ride the Burton bindings because the outer ridge of the heel cup (see above post) sticks out too far from where my heel actually resides in the boot.

Two things design wise..

A heel cup band can be raised (Lifting it away from the snow so it hits at a higher board angle (usually accomplished with a lift kit) or the band cann be made thinner.

A thin heel band does not guarantee that your actual heel is close to the edge however... The Ride bindings... have thin heel cup but the high back sticks so far inwards and is not tapered in thickness... so your actual heel gets pushed inwards.

A boot with a very thick liner and outer boot in the heel area also causes the same issue. (Oddly some stiff boots have chunky liners which can kill performance).

I have never been able to make any Burton Soft Boot binding perform well. I always boot out at about 50-55 degrees. So I no longer even try to use them. For low angles like in BX I am sure they work ok. The Union binding have a sliding heel cup- ideal for "Gilmour Bias" as you do not have to give up micro stance width adjustment in terms of your disc mounting holes in exchange for "Gilmour Bias". You merely loosen a screw on each side of the binding and slide the heel cup. The Catek FR2 can also be adjusted this way... but you must take apart the binding to do so... it is not an on slope quick adjustment.

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The conditions were death cookies mixed in with icy groomed snow..with some loose packed pow on top...not ideal...at all..

Even with substantial injuries (and less supportive gear...... if your gear is set up properly- the board (Rossignol Judge Split tail - with cracked tail Powder board 168cm) and boots (Burton andy warhol- a modified Hail model) and bindings (2007 Union Force DLX-fantastic ankle straps!- this particular binding was shot..as all the straps need replacing and are held together with duct tape and chunks of cut up beach sandals to add stiffness to where it once was.) do most of the work. You just ride the jet stream and act as a pilot redirecting the G-forces into the snow. Even I was broken in this video as I had two badly sprained ankles and a torn rear leg Gastronemius and Soleus..(calf muscles) I just did this for a student of mine to take home to watch. But as you can see- softboots do not rob me of control at higher speeds at all. I also do not need a lot of boot stiffness as the board tilt exceeds 60 degrees. (it's a sine / cosine type thing) at under 45 degrees of board tilt you need the most boot support...So I try to avoid excessively loading that angle range ...say 38-52 degrees... completely while pulling high G's (as that is what injured me in the first place..lol)

Because of my injuries I can only do heelside turns in this video...toeside turns stresses the calf (pulls) too much in its injured state. My ankles were also loose and shifting around bone wise under the skin. yuck...

Too stiff a highback is similar to overly stiff suspension in a car..where a car skips instead of maintaining road surface contact over uneven surfaces... stiff will let you dig in.... but when forces build up... it can really chatter insanely and bounce abruptly- sending huge shock through your feet and knees. I happen to think the Highback flex and height on my Unions is the best I have used..and it is no where near as stiff as some bindings.

[John Gilmour]

.....

[kinpa]

probably anyone who's been an instructor from early on when everyone in PSIA was still pretty much in hardboots..... along came AASI and bye bye went the hardbooters! (yeah, I'm a little bitter, but that's another story) I refuse to go back to softboots so I'm pretty much done with AASI.... next time I have to do update credits, I'll just sign up for a ski clinic instead.

[Jack M]

I've known a handful.

Hardboot carving is a pursuit of mastery. One that never really ends, but asymptotically approaches perfection. I think some people just give up on that, or they think they'll never be as good as they'd hoped.

Softboot riding doesn't really demand that you spend years mastering it - you can if you want to, but as long as you can cruise around the mountain with your friends and not make them wait, it's all good. You can be terminally mediocre at it and have fun, while being terminally mediocre at hardbooting is not fun and often painful.

[scrapster]

This is a great forum.

Which binding are you using John, I would be very interested to know. When I do take out my softie's I am using old C-60's (solid carbon high back) and love the responsiveness but if I get some nice low heelsides in the heel cup is always catching.

Willow, I'm using the new Nidecker ACT Carbons and really like them (not as bulky as the old Carbon 800/900's). Sizing is a bit funky though as they seem biased toward either small or large. I also have the new Salomon Calibers, which are extremely comfy but more medium-stiff. I'm moving them to my pow board.

PS- The Nideckers don't seem to have rotating heel cups, but it hasn't really mattered up to 40 degrees or so.

[kinpa]

being terminally mediocre at hardbooting...

Hey, I think that descibes me perfectly! "terminally mediocre" However, I guess it's ok..... I just strive to not make anyone wait for me too awlful much! (unless it's those flatlanders that can't make it down our big mountains and need a break anyway!!!!)