Replacing a Madd X wing

[SEJ]

Now that the X wing is off I can read all the topsheet graphics. Looks like it's got carbon inside as well. The way the X wing covered part of the graphics tells me it was an after market add on. You can see this in the second picture. There's still a ghost line from the X wing that goes right through all the text about the carbon. I can't believe they would put that there if they knew the wing was going on.

I would think Sikaflex would have fillers in it that would hinder it's ability to extrude out as you clamped the wing down. I know silicone does. I think every caulk does. Back when I was running an outboard I got to where I could replace a piston in a day. BUT, you had to use this special silicone sealant that contained NO fillers when you glued the cases back together.

[John Gilmour]

The double stick tape won't do anything as you are just measuring the sheer of adhesion of the tape.

Carbon doesn't like to stretch or compress.

[SEJ]

I agree John, as installed with the double sided tape there is too much shear in the bond for the wing to be effective as part of the beam.

Back to my earlier question, were they all installed with tape?

You and Billy are the only people I know that seem to have been part of the brain trust known as Madd. I remember in '08 we had both ends of this board in our hands twisting it and you were showing me how the winged portion was stiffer. Maybe the bond has slowly softened over time. In '08 it did seem stiffer in the winged portion when we were playing with it. I remember that year Billy brought a metal Madd to the house. I've heard of Madd Mike, IIRC I think I was told he was the guy putting the X wing on them.

You seem to be the only Madd expert responding to this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You got to wonder how the extreme temp changes the board goes through on a regular basis ultimately effects a pressure sensitive adhesive. Peel and stick is not the best structural bond.

The question is: Do I leave it off, and the board performs as it did. Or do I BOND the wing back on and change the performance. That will have to be decided by the owner.

[BlueB]

I would think Sikaflex would have fillers in it that would hinder it's ability to extrude out as you clamped the wing down.

Yeah, that's why I suggested it as the soft bonding agent - to simulate the thickness of d/sided tape and the sheer layer effect, while adding even more damping.

[John Gilmour]

I'd love to see this..PM me your AIM so I can video chat to inspect this.

Hmmm Madd Banker did put a few together....uh oh...

[John Gilmour]

Bond the damn wing.... it's killing me to see this drag out...

And if you want to add a vibration absorbing layer.. (as if there isn't enough rubber in a Madd) sounds insane- but I had this glimpse of doing a linked binding with a hydraulic fluid.. that way the spacing between the bindings stays relatively constant and can only change slowly with respect to time- the fluid absorbing some of the shock through a "small vent hole". As the board finishes the turn the distance would change quicker but a sculpted relief slot in the hydraulic tube could allow for this.. of course it would have to be low freezing temp liquid.

Or you could just stick more glop on top.

It does amaze me the things you guys do to save these Madds... their hold on ice is tenacious, but nothing compared to the hold on their owners.

I could be up for making another run... but making them even better than the originals.

[big canuck]

I'll buy one. Make em guy!!

[BlueB]

Bond the damn wing....

John's right. He knows how the majority was made.

[rjnakata]

I could be up for making another run... but making them even better than the originals.

Count me in!...and let's do those lessons next year too.

[Mike T]

It does amaze me the things you guys do to save these Madds... their hold on ice is tenacious, but nothing compared to the hold on their owners.

I can say with confidence that there exist modern metal boards which outgrip the one original Madd 158 that I've had the pleasure of owning.

I owned a well-used 158 original for two or three years, might have lost some of its pop but I suspect it had all the edge grip. I need to put up a review of my 2011 Coiler SL 161 asym core profile... it really is amazing.

[SEJ]

Hey John, I hate to sound like an idiot but I have no idea what AIM is.

Here's a pic of the bottom side of the wing. You can see the clear membrane still attached. From top down the layup was wing, adhesive, membrane, adhesive, and topsheet.

The only purpose for this membrane that I can think of would be the backer sheet for double sided tape. Getting the wing off the board wasn't that hard, getting this membrane off the wing is going to be a bitch. There is QUITE the bond between these.

Again, I'm waiting to hear from the owner on how to proceed.

[SEJ]

Kendrick said to bond the wing back on. He's not worried about the board getting a little stiffer. So, the next thing to do is clean the membrane and adhesive off the bottom of the wing. This is problematic because the membrane protects the adhesive from the solvent. What I've ended up doing is scoring the membrane by abrading it with 36 grit sandpaper. After letting a paper towel soaked in solvent sit on it for a while, the whole mess can be scraped off with a razor blade. It's slow going, but it does work.

[John Gilmour]

HEY!!!! D NOT USE ANYTHING SHARP TO REMOVE GLUE GLOP!!!! DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES "SCORE" THE CARBON FIBER SHEET!!!!!!!! NO RAZOR BLADES OR METAL SCRAPERS!!! YOU DO NOT WANT TO CREATE A FRACTURE PLANE.

Use a porter cable 7424 orbital polisher with a bristle brush. and porter cable 7424 standard 5 inch backer plate/counter weight.

http://www.autopia-carcare.com/ultimate-detailing-machine-xp-porter-cable-7424-dual-action-random-orbit-car-polisher.html

I bought the Meguirs one...same thing but lifetime warranty..

http://www.amazon.com/Meguiars-G100-Dual-Action-Polisher/dp/B0009IQZ3E

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4843

http://www.superiorcarcare.net/porter-cable-brushes.html

Simple Goo gone should work without damaging the epoxy.

http://rodbuilding.org/read.php?2,23175

http://www.justdoityourself.net/?p=354

THe Portercable makes quick work of this stufff... IMHO every american should own one of these devices for sanding, polishing cars and boats, rug cleaning...freaking everything. Buy it...own it... you will thank me later.

A-***EN-TTENTION! DO NOT DO THE NEXT STEP INSIDE!!!!

Spray with automobile Starting fluid to remove the residue.. (This is petroleum Ether) highly flammable....explosive by design... so do this outside near no open flame.

(at this point all glue goop and solvents should be gone)

Gently sand the x-wing to roughen it up a bit for better bonding.

Soft ski wax (Swix yellow) into your inserts to prevent Epoxy from gunning them up.. Then take over.. You will scrape this out with a lift ticket wicket later and remove the rest with wax remover and q-tips.

Place the x- wing on the board naked without glue.

Use clamps to flatten it and position it so it is centered on the inserts and edges of the board. NOTE: In the cambered position or with the bit of extra camber.

Take a pencil and mark the outside.

Roughen where X-wing will bond with sandpaper.

remove all dust with damp cloth.

Now to provide a "Jig" use double sided foam tape to tape around the x wing outside. This tape will also stop the epoxy from running and making a mess. Do not remove the top of the double stick tape.

Remove the x wing.

Smush the double stick tape back down good.

Replace x-wing to test.. for fit.

If it still fits remove the X-wing.

Now smush tape one last time.

NOW put scotch tape on the bottom of the board right up to the double stick tape. where x-wing would butt up against the double tape. Fold inside edge of scotch tape (the edge not touching the xwing ) so you can remove it very easily in a few minutes. (you are masking the mold release compound)

Take mold release compound or simple Vaseline (borrow from sexually overly active neighbors) using a q-tip or piece of foam...and smeer on edge of double stick tape...thin coating but do it twice! Wipe top of double stick tape (Still has that wax paper on it- with vaseline)

Now remove scotch tape. Now no overflow will stick to your edge of double stick tape... so you will be able to remove the double stick tape. (Do this or the clean up is a PITA.

Glue and clamp the X-wing- you will love that you have this tape Jig.

Quickly remove oozing epoxy (Smear to outside edge of wing- don't worry about getting it on the double sided tape as you coated it!)

. Do it at 1 minute mark and 5 minute mark.. you get only 2 tries at this.. if there is anything left later do not remove it.. you will have to sand it off later. Trying to remove it at this point can disturb the bond ..and just make things worse.

If the pressure is not even you will get different thickness epoxy... BAD... So real men own a ton of clamps.

Let Dry.

If you are clever... you can take a piece of anything non porous and glue and bond it to anything else non porous and figure out at what point you can remove the double stick tape and still be able to Shmooosh the epoxy lip down without having the sheet slide or having it too tacky so it strands..

Of course you have to do this test first with several things glued up and test them at different times until you find the ideal working time for the epoxy.

Knowing this info lets your remove the double stick tape before teh glue is cured and you can make sanding a lot less post bonding work by using a plastic scraper with vaseline on it to shmoosh that lip near the end of the x-wing perimeter down. Less sanding ...or if you get good at this...ZERO sanding needed.

good luck...wear gloves, and over everything in the work area as epoxy gets everywhere.

There is a lot of surface in the X-wing... so practice application methods that work for you.

Remove wax from inserts..

Let board sit for a week.

When you first flex the board you will hear "Creaks and Cracks" this is normal... they wills top after a few flexes.

Ride the schit out of it.

[SEJ]

Finally had a little time to play with this some more.

John, thanks for all the input. Unfortunately I did the scraping before reading your post, fortunately, I came away with no nicks or scratches in the wing. It was a matter of letting the goof off do it's work. It's a slow process because the solvent has to work it's way under the membrane. Have something else to do while you're doing this. One Minute scraping, apply more solvent, then let it soak while you do something else for the next ten minutes. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

Clamp the wing flat while you're doing this.

FINALLY, a clean wing, the messy part is over! (Well, at least the old adhesive part.)

[SEJ]

Got to play around with this a little more. Gave everything a good wipe down with solvent then plugged the insets with wax. (after masking the board off)

The next step was to put the wing back on and start masking everything off. This is harder than it sounds because the wing is not flat. It likes to wrap up in a helical spin. So I clamped the middle using screws in the inserts as guides, then made sure it was following the ghost lines left from the original install. Once I had it right I masked it all off, taping it to the board. Then I used an Exatco knife to scribe around the wing to cut it free. Now every thing that is not supposed to have epoxy on it is blue.

[heroshmero]

Interesting stuff Scott. Thanks for keeping us updated on the progress.

[SEJ]

Next step was to use the wing as a template and build a clamping pad out of 1/4" baltic birch to spread out the clamp pressure. I sanded the crap out of the edges so the plywood ended up just slightly smaller than the carbon wing. This way I could see the perimeter of the wing for proper line up. I then sprayed the bottom of it with adhesive and stuck a sheet of wax paper to it for mold release.Then I picked a 2 x 4 that had a slight bow to it to make the clamp caulls. With convex side down this will help transfer clamp pressure to the middle of the board during glue up.

Now it's time for surface prep. I sanded the gloss off of everything with 80 grit paper.

[SEJ]

Now it's time for a dry run of the clamp up. Thank God I did it because I found out the table was too wide for proper clamp placement. Had to narrow it up a couple of inches. (You DON'T want to find this kind of thing out after the adhesive is applied) Once I liked the clamp up I marked the plywood so I could repeat the process quicker. You'll notice pins in the binding inserts to help line things up. I dug a little bit of the wax out so I could screw them in a couple of turns and coated them with vasoline to help protect those threads. The final prep step is to wipe everything down with acetone, then don't touch it.

We're ready for the epoxy!

[SEJ]

The epoxy I used is West Systems G flex. It's a marine epoxy that's not as brittle as standard epoxies. Measure CAREFULLY, mix for 5 minutes after you think it's already mixed. (I used 4 ounces) A spreader is the best way to spread it out. When applying the clamps just snug them up, don't kill them. You don't want to squeeze out ALL the epoxy. As the epoxy extrudes out you need to re-snug them. I had good squeeze out everywhere. This stops after a minute or so. I wiped up as much squeeze out as I could and removed the line up pins. Hopefully I haven't bonded the plywood to the board. Hmm, 1/4" bi-axial hardwood wing? Wonder how that would affect the ride?

[SEJ]

Even with all that masking tape and wax paper, it took quite a bit of effort to pop the plywood wing off.(At first I thought the carbon wing was coming off!) Once I got it off it took about 15 minutes to get all the epoxy soaked tape off and clean out the inserts. But, it did all come off clean. The bond looks perfect, everywhere. This could not have come out any better. West Systems says 24 hours for a complete bond, but I'm going to take John's advise and wait a week or so before doing the second set of flex tests.

It turns out my camber table was not perfect. I've added 1/16" to the camber. This alone tells me we will see a difference in the flex with the wing BONDED on.

[lowrider]

After all that epoxy and clamp work you are now ready to build yourself a real plate and see how that board rides. Nice job and thanks for posting your work.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Thanks for all your work documenting and posting the photos along the way.

Nicely done Scott!!

[SEJ]

Bryan, lowrider, thank you. It's been a fun project/experiment. Can't wait for the post bonding flex tests. While the jig is set up I'll compare it to other boards in the quiver. (This will be interesting, Coiler, Prior, Burner) Kendrick might have ended up with more than he bargained for. I think I've just created the first WORLD CUP Madd.

This was a one time thing. If anybody wants the clamping table and clamping pad you can have it for shipping. I didn't glue the table together so once I pull the screws out it would be a pretty small package.

John, thanks for all your input. I got to tell you, I almost blew beer out my nose with your comment.

"It does amaze me the things you guys do to save these Madds... their hold on ice is tenacious, but nothing compared to the hold on their owners."

There's simply better stuff out there these days. Of course, if you run another batch, things might be different.

[SEJ]

So, I measured everything when I did the first tests so I could duplicate it again. I have not touched the torque wrench since the first test.

Damn wing still does nothing. Longitudinal flex is the same, and so is torsional. I find it interesting that I could add 1/16" of camber in the glue up, but it has not made the board any stiffer. Maybe I didn't measure the camber accurate enough on the first go around.

I believe my data is solid, but maybe not enough data. If I had decambered it with 50, then 100, then 150 pounds maybe we would see a difference in those other regions. Likewise for the torsional test.

Bottom line: Best I can tell, the wing does nothing, pure bling. So, if your wing is coming loose, don't worry. Actually, the board looked pretty cool without it.

In reality, we won't know till the owner rides it, maybe he will feel a difference.

I was so bummed by the results I didn't bother bending any other boards, but I could if people are interested.

Hey Kendrick! Your board's ready.

Let's see, our season typically starts no earlier than Tday, so I will guarantee my work for 5 months.

[lowrider]

I'm feeling for you SEJ after all your effort it would have been quite rewarding to see measurable results, I've been of the opinion that sometimes bling blinds the less informed in your case you have seen first hand. Perhaps the wing was only performing the function of dampening the board since it was previously bonded by a flexable adhesive, the new fix should change that feature but you will only know for sure when the board is ridden. Guess you better head to Abasin for a test ride:biggthump