SES Subplate reviews

[Mike T]

I rode four different plate set-ups - here are my impressions. All were with my own Sidewinders, using a Td2 disk + ering to keep the stack height under control. All were on the Coiler VSR Mid+ Plate Flex 180 except where noted.

Apex Race - UPM Mount

No low speed issues, or one-footed issues. Didn't notice height. Blasted through chop. Felt the power. Very responsive. Able to vary turn shape nicely. Loss of nimbleness compared to a plate-free board, but not too bad. Could "pedal" without trouble, could feel the plate flex as I pedalled, perhaps felt the flex too much. Plate was noisy, this was distracting.

Boiler "Mathilda" - UPM Mount

No low speed issues, or one-footed issues. Didn't notice height. Blasted through chop. Felt the power. Very responsive. Able to vary turn shape nicely. Loss of nimbleness compared to a plate-free board, but not too bad. Could "pedal" without trouble; noticed the effect of the pedalling on the board, but not unwanted flexing in the plate. Plate was completely quiet. Didn't notice weight. "Mathilda" was a 4mm thick plate, standard Bomber plate is 5mm, according to Fin.

Donek plate - UPM Mount

No low speed issues, or one-footed issues. Noticed height, got used to it. Blasted through chop. Felt the power. Very responsive. Able to vary turn shape nicely. Loss of nimbleness compared to a plate-free board, a little more so than Mathilda/Apex, but not too bad. Could "pedal" without trouble, could feel the plate flex as I pedalled, perhaps felt the flex too much. Plate was quiet; not as quiet as Mathilda but far quieter than the Apex.

Donek plate - 4x4 Mount

I actually felt like the Donek 4x4 mount was more different than the Donek UPM mount than the Donek UPM mount was from the other two plates. I could readily feel some sluggishness in the system. To be fair, this one was mounted on the Donek GS 178 which was probably built for a guy lighter than me; however I had ridden a 4x4 mount Donek plate 6 weeks ago on a couple of my own boards and felt similar sluggishness and squishiness. The squishiness was most noticeable when pushing the board as hard as I could.

Overall I liked Mathilda the best, but IMHO the Donek UPM mount is the best bang for the buck. Full disclosure - I really like the ninbless of plate-free boards, but will probably buy a plate for Mt Bachelor spring slush, where I think it will very much be a game changer.

[zoltan]

I guess my question is would the Bomber Boiler suffer from the same increase in squishiness going from the UPM to the 4x4 mount as the Donek plate?

I'm very strongly considering getting in line for the 4x4 Boiler.

Also, I think you should post this in the main forum.

[pokkis]

I've been now bout 40 days this season on Donek plates, pretty equally on both, but i hav enot noticed any mentionable difference between them on any surface from heavy powder to medium hard slope.

I ride now anyway UPM on my race Coiler, asy NSR+, and 4*4 version on 23.5cm wide Coiler NSR+. Why? Dont know, just left setups that way :)

EDIT rear mechanics are fine on Donek plate, but i think that front one needs some development. But price tag is nice.

[zoltan]

EDIT rear mechanics are fine on Donek plate, but i think that front one needs some development. But price tag is nice.

Would you mind explaining that better?

It's also my understand that on Coilers the Donek plate can only be run in its narrowest setting (the from and rear set of inserts are too close together). This means if you have a stance wider than 20.5", you'll be outside the axles, and can get a teeter totter effect. Is this something you've experienced on your Coiler?

[lowrider]

The next generation of Coilers ie; plate specific, (UPM Plus and 4x4 Plus) have extended insert spacing to avoid the diving board effect. A word of caution to anyone considering both new board and plate, consult your board builder to optimize the performace from your new set up. My new T173 all mountain matched to a UPM plate that sits 14.8 mm off the middle of the board is like riding in powder even in ice coast conditions.

[pokkis]

Would you mind explaining that better?

It's also my understand that on Coilers the Donek plate can only be run in its narrowest setting (the from and rear set of inserts are too close together). This means if you have a stance wider than 20.5", you'll be outside the axles, and can get a teeter totter effect. Is this something you've experienced on your Coiler?

I see that rear one works as it should but with front one i see some enchancement preferred.

Bruce has been building my Coilers for longer time with wider 4x4 inserts due my basic stance is 54 cm so i dont have such issue.

[Hans]

Thanks for the nice review. I just changed my order for the 'Mathilda' option, BBP 4MM it is.

[~tb]

I rode four different plate set-ups - here are my impressions. All were with my own Sidewinders, using a Td2 disk + ering to keep the stack height under control. All were on the Coiler VSR Mid+ Plate Flex 180 except where noted.

Apex Race - UPM Mount

No low speed issues, or one-footed issues. Didn't notice height. Blasted through chop. Felt the power. Very responsive. Able to vary turn shape nicely. Loss of nimbleness compared to a plate-free board, but not too bad. Could "pedal" without trouble, could feel the plate flex as I pedalled, perhaps felt the flex too much. Plate was noisy, this was distracting.

Boiler "Mathilda" - UPM Mount

No low speed issues, or one-footed issues. Didn't notice height. Blasted through chop. Felt the power. Very responsive. Able to vary turn shape nicely. Loss of nimbleness compared to a plate-free board, but not too bad. Could "pedal" without trouble; noticed the effect of the pedalling on the board, but not unwanted flexing in the plate. Plate was completely quiet. Didn't notice weight. "Mathilda" was a 4mm thick plate, standard Bomber plate is 5mm, according to Fin.

Donek plate - UPM Mount

No low speed issues, or one-footed issues. Noticed height, got used to it. Blasted through chop. Felt the power. Very responsive. Able to vary turn shape nicely. Loss of nimbleness compared to a plate-free board, a little more so than Mathilda/Apex, but not too bad. Could "pedal" without trouble, could feel the plate flex as I pedalled, perhaps felt the flex too much. Plate was quiet; not as quiet as Mathilda but far quieter than the Apex.

Donek plate - 4x4 Mount

I actually felt like the Donek 4x4 mount was more different than the Donek UPM mount than the Donek UPM mount was from the other two plates. I could readily feel some sluggishness in the system. To be fair, this one was mounted on the Donek GS 178 which was probably built for a guy lighter than me; however I had ridden a 4x4 mount Donek plate 6 weeks ago on a couple of my own boards and felt similar sluggishness and squishiness. The squishiness was most noticeable when pushing the board as hard as I could.

Overall I liked Mathilda the best, but IMHO the Donek UPM mount is the best bang for the buck. Full disclosure - I really like the ninbless of plate-free boards, but will probably buy a plate for Mt Bachelor spring slush, where I think it will very much be a game changer.

I know that I am overdue with my review now, but I find it interesting some of the things we found to be in common, and some of the things that we appear to be of opposite opinions on.

First of all, I don't believe you rode Mathilda as a UPM mount, as bomber only had 4X4 hardware with them. If you got to try their UPM hardware, you were truly a lucky dog!

On the two Donek Plates, I did a heads up of the two hardware sets on the same 184 Rec GS back to back. I could barely feel a difference between the two, and if anything, the 4X4 almost felt stiffer especially length-wise. Side to side they felt the same to me (which makes sense as the hardware is basically just flipped, and unless the board is deflecting width wise, all the moments solve the same).

I also will share some of pokkis's thoughts on wether or not any of this could have to do with the Coiler hole pattern. I set someone else up on a Donek FC with a UPM plate and they loved it. When we had to put them on their coiler, the axel spacing came in substantially making the plate set-up . . . well, not as optimal as it could be.

Also to note IMHO was how much easier it was to setup the Donek Plate on a UPM mount. No spacing tools needed, everything just lines up and you bolt it down. Completely AWESOME!

[Mike T]

Zoltan: I would expect to find the two Bomber mounts to behave more similarly than the Donek mounts, due to the materials. But I'm no MechE so my expectations may be wrong. Regarding Coilers: yeah, if you want to ride a 4x4 plate, ask for wider inserts. The narrow axle spacing imposed by combining a Donek 4x4 w/ a standard Coiler insert pattern makes for a funky ride. I believe I heard Sean directly sau he's going to solve this next year - hint, in a similar way that Bomber's 4x4 mount does (look at the pics, it's obvious :) )

Todd: Fin told me I was the first person to take out a Boiler UPM mount at the tent. I specifically asked for it. Also, I demoed the Donek 4x4 on a Donek, specifically at Sean's request, to see if I got the same feeling I had on my own Diablo 6 weeks ago (axles as wide as they go). I did.

Now, note that I was trying to find any slop in the systems as part of demoing. Lots of cross under turns, intentionally over-leaning then trying to rescue it, intentionally sloppy riding, non-rhythmic turns, etc. I felt it. Maybe I'm just clumsier than the average carver and found the limits? In any case, what I felt between the 4x4 and UPM mount certainly felt very real.

[~tb]

Todd: Fin told me I was the first person to take out a Boiler UPM mount at the tent. I specifically asked for it. Also, I demoed the Donek 4x4 on a Donek, specifically at Sean's request, to see if I got the same feeling I had on my own Diablo 6 weeks ago (axles as wide as they go). I did.

Awesome on the Boiler UPM mount. I didn't even know it was there or I would have tried the same setup you did! Didn't even think to ask! Shame on me:(

On the 4X4 VS UPM donek. . . did you get to try it back to back on the same board, same binding, same day, same run?

Maybe I am just too close to this to see the difference.

[Mike T]

Awesome on the Boiler UPM mount. I didn't even know it was there or I would have tried the same setup you did! Didn't even think to ask! Shame on me:(

On the 4X4 VS UPM donek. . . did you get to try it back to back on the same board, same binding, same day, same run?

Maybe I am just too close to this to see the difference.

I didn't do the complete back to back thing, but the difference was too pronounced to ignore. I'm aware that I am one of the few people to report such a thing. Talked to Sean a fair bit about it (can't recall whether you were in earshot, apparently not). Again, I would like to stress the fact that I was trying to find the limits of the setup by "riding hard badly". The good news is, the UPM mount version handled all that I dished out. Oh, and I'm pretty sure the 4x4 was set up properly... either Sean or Kenny set it up.

[pokkis]

Just side note that on my setups for UPM and 4x4 axles have been roughly on same locations, that might explain little bit why i did not noticed any differences between them.

[Mike T]

Same here, pokkis. I threw out the results from the case where I mounted 4x4 on a Coiler that didn't allow for wide enough axle spacing.

[zoltan]

Zoltan: I would expect to find the two Bomber mounts to behave more similarly than the Donek mounts, due to the materials. But I'm no MechE so my expectations may be wrong. Regarding Coilers: yeah, if you want to ride a 4x4 plate, ask for wider inserts. The narrow axle spacing imposed by combining a Donek 4x4 w/ a standard Coiler insert pattern makes for a funky ride. I believe I heard Sean directly sau he's going to solve this next year - hint, in a similar way that Bomber's 4x4 mount does (look at the pics, it's obvious :) )

Yup, I've been looking at Bomber's system. Since my Coiler doesn't have wider inserts, and since I'm not getting rid of my Coiler (ever), do you think the Boiler Plate would work well enough? From looking at the pictures, it looks like I should be able to get the necessary axle spacing for my 21.25" stance (my bindings are centered on the furthest apart inserts). I don't want to spend $800 and then have it not work.

[Mike T]

Zoltan, not making any guesses there. You can probably figure it out with a little help from the folks @ Bomber.

-Measure the distance between your widest set of inserts

-Ask the Bomber folks what the widest axle spacing you can get from that set of inserts is

-Ask what the widest stance width obtainable at said axle spacing is, where the toe of the front boot is over the axle and the heel of the rear boot is over the axle, for maximum performance

Look at the photos of the Bomber 4x4 mount, you will see the the axles are outside the hardware-to-board bolts, maximizing the axle spacing. I heard mention that Donek is considering something similar down the road... so, Coiler owners, fear not.

[Mike T]

Folks, just wanted to reiterate one more thing:

1) I'm not the world's greatest rider. Even in the course of normal riding, I put more than my fair share of unexpected input into a board system.

2) When I test or demo gear, I intentionally try to find the limits of what I am testing or demoing, by riding it all sorts of ways - including ways that I would not normally ride. Witness it action, on johnasmo's Day 6 video. I'm riding a board that is too soft for me, possibly way too soft, and alternatively trying to make it work and trying to see what happens when do funky things. I'm the guy in the red jacket that's not Trent, during the Beastie Boys song, clearly doing some weird riding trying to get a soft board to work in soft snow. (I don't think I look that bad normally, but if I do, tell me :o )

3) I've ridden a LOT of boards over the years.

4) I'm a detail oriented guy, typical software engineer personality. Differences that are subtle to some, are blatant to me.

You may well want to listen to those that didn't notice a big difference. To me, the difference was big.

Please know that I have nothing but respect for the work that Sean, and the rest of the Donek crew do. I hope my feedback in some way helps them do it even better. They know far more than I do about this stuff and if they choose to ignore the feedback of one individual, they probably do so for a good reason ;)

And I did say that I thought the Donek UPM was the best bang for the buck.

[lowrider]

Will it work and is it optimal. The difference in plate performance on less than optimal mounting stance is noticeable. Best results is a board matched to a plate anything else is trial and error. So get out your "T" handle driver and start turning screws.At the least the axles should be directly under your bindings (stance). Better somewhere outside your stance (determined by trial and error) Based on factors like your weight,plate stiffness,plate height ,board flex and other personal preferences. No one can decide all these variables for you but pay attention to what your starting point is and you can narrow things down pretty quickly.