binding help?????

[Jack M]

Originally posted by bola

Jack:

I am not sure that I totally agree with your analysis.

I don't think there's any "analysis" to agree or disagree with, I'm just stating the fact that the Catek is rigidly mounted to the board and therefore the statements in the Carver's Almanac are inaccurate.

[NateW]

Yes YYZ that's what I'm talking about. However on second thought I think it's by design. Bob, correct me if I'm wrong here:

When mounting TD2s, the mounting disc is supposed to be clamped securely to the topsheet. This compresses the e-ring a bit. "Suspension" means that a downward force on the top of the binding (and an upward force on the board) causes the ring to compress which causes the cant "disc" to get closer to the board.

How many pounds of preload does it take to bring the mounting disc into contact with the topsheet?

[Gtanner]

I hate to throw a wrench in the spokes here, but I feel like I should put in my two cents about racers and stiff bindings.

I have been racing now for about 8 years (started on a Burton Safari…shudder) and have primarily ridden on Burton equipment due to supply and sponsorship deals. I have competed at 6 or 7 national championships and have traveled overseas to compete for Canada at the World University Games.

Up until last year, I used the explosive Burton raceplates and certainly had my series of problems. I remember taking a look at the bindings last year and realized that I only had one heal bail remaining from the original binding, I had broken/replaced everything several times. I have always noticed the ridiculous amount of play in these bindings and therefore rode stiffer boots and boards to increase the overall system response.

Last year, my coach offered me his TD1’s to use for the rest of the season (I had blown another bail on the brtns). What a difference! Now granted I weigh about 210-215lbs (depending on beer intake) but the response and accuracy that I suddenly had was unreal. So I started using them on my 185 speed and won a handful of PGS races and BX as well.

So for me, the stiffer binding has worked better (and I ride mostly on east coast ice). I find that the stiffer binding allows me to make subtle adjustments to body position and/or modify my pressure phase of the turn to gain more speed out of each turn which I couldn't do before. Now the board is what is bending, and there is no more loss to the bindings.

I just ordered a set of Catek’s and am really excited to try them out!

[Guest BRAD PETER]

Has anyone used f2 titanflex binding and say td2 stndard with yellow ering. I am curious as to wich has more flex or is more comfortible to ride. I now ride buton race and like the feel of them but want step up to bindings with more lift/cant optoins and still have the feel of the burton race.

[Guest Randy S.]

KenW: Great write-up. Thanks. I just got a set of Standard bails for my TD2s and now I'm even more psyched to try them out. I race in SI TD2s and it works well for me. Plus I love the convenience of step-in.

Brad: I replaced my F2 Titanflex SIs with TD2s last year. The TDs have it all over the F2s. First of all, you can actually get parts for TDs if you need them. Forget about getting parts for F2s in the US. F2 will just ignore your emails. Second, the TDs are way more durable. The important plastic parts on the F2 hold up, but there are little pieces that go missing. I lost a center disk (the plastic cover part - not integral to the function of the binding) and one of the toe/heel pads (which are important to the function of the binding). Those parts just fell off one time I was changing bindings/boards and I never found them again. Third is adjustability. F2 provides a combination of lift/cant shims. I found a pretty good set-up with those standards, but if you don't like what it comes with, you are outta luck. The TDs don't have the adjustability of the Cateks, but still have plenty for me and way more than the F2. I originally bought the F2 bindings because I thought it was a great deal. I could get 2 pair for about the same cost as one pair of TDs. Two pair of bindngs that last one season are not a better deal than one pair that last 3 seasons+. In retrospect it worked out. Had I bought TDs when I bought the F2s, I'd have ended up with TD1s. This way I got the 2nd gen TDs and I'm really happy. I now have two full pair, plus a 2nd board kit plus a set of standard bails and some extra screws and e-rings. In fact that reminds me I need to go get a tool box to keep all my Bomber spare parts in. My F2 bindings are now part of the Tahoecarvers demo fleet and stay on my powder board most of the time.

So, to answer your question. I haven't used Titanflex and TD2 Standard, just step-in. Overall, the TD is way more comfortable, better built, more adjustable, and, I think equally flexible (comparing SI to SI - presumably bails would be similar comparison). Buy the US made product.

[Mike T]

Originally posted by Randy S.

In fact that reminds me I need to go get a tool box to keep all my Bomber spare parts in.

Heh - just did that myself! (Two complete TD2SI, 2 2nd board kits, a couple extra cant disks. Pays to watch eBay and classifieds!)

I plan to enter a GS or two "just for fun", I'll use what I've got ( TD2SI) should I put the soft tongues in my Raichles to add a little more give to the system?

I'm curious why racers seem to like super stiff boots and get all the give from the bindings rather than the other way around (softer boot, stiff binding)... would someone mind explaining it for the benefit of a non-racer such as myself? (I understand why you need some play in the system... what I don't understand is, why not let it come from the boot instead of the binding? That certainly seems to help me while freecarving on uneven snow)

[Kent]

Originally posted by Mike T

I'm curious why racers seem to like super stiff boots and get all the give from the bindings rather than the other way around (softer boot, stiff binding)... would someone mind explaining it for the benefit of a non-racer such as myself? (I understand why you need some play in the system... what I don't understand is, why not let it come from the boot instead of the binding? That certainly seems to help me while freecarving on uneven snow)

First off, it would be inaccurate to say that racers that use "weaker" bails use stiffer boots......and that Bomber/Catek racers use softer boots. There is no best practice.

To answer your question though....depending on style a softer binding racer might want to laterally move their foot without moving the binding. This allows you to keep your edge a fraction of a second longer while your foot starts the next turn.

In the case of stiffer boots, racers generally use more power. The goal is the proper mix of strength vs. flexibility.

[Strider]

Originally posted by Mike T

I'm curious why racers seem to like super stiff boots and get all the give from the bindings rather than the other way around (softer boot, stiff binding)... would someone mind explaining it for the benefit of a non-racer such as myself? (I understand why you need some play in the system... what I don't understand is, why not let it come from the boot instead of the binding? That certainly seems to help me while freecarving on uneven snow)

I am no where near a pro level racer so this is only what I noticed in my racing in USASA and local leagues for the last 6 years. I actually do prefer the softer boot, TD2 combo. I started out using my ultra stiff Lange race series ski boots way back in the day and often over-powered my bindings and bent the bails(no failures though). I then got raichle 223's and added a fourth buckle. At first they were sooooooo much softer than my ski boots that I was really sloppy. Once I figured out the different flex pattern and adjusted my riding style accordingly I found that the whole system had too much play for my tastes. I got a pair of TD 1's and all of a sudden I had too much response, but prefered it over the Burton's I was using. Rode those for 3 years and now that I''ve had a season in the TD2's and played around with the different elastomers I really love the feel of the soft ring. I like to feel a solid interface between me an my board, and I like to let my ankles/boots take up the bouncing. I can flex the boots an unbelievable amount, but that doesn't bother me because that is the feel that I like. So, I really like the solid feel of the binding, but the e-ring does a good job of not transferring too much to my legs with the exception of the bone jarring ruts, damn skiers taking the wrong line in the local league :) , which mostly need to be taken up with the legs anyway. Most of the other racers I race with get the stiffest boots they can. I've tried them (only for periods of a day at a time) and I haven't found the need to get a stiffer boot, but maybe it would be better. What I think it probably boils to, is what each person gets comfortable with. Who knows...maybe in 5 years more racers will be on Bombers or Cateks, and maybe not. All I know is that for my riding style they work fine for me and I haven't run into many amateur racers who I can't hang with. I have no doubt that the pros would spank me though.

[Jack M]

used older/softer Burton boots, the Furnace, in the SLC Olympics. I don't know what he's on now, but he likes the soft/soft combo.

[Mike T]

Originally posted by Kent

To answer your question though....depending on style a softer binding racer might want to laterally move their foot without moving the binding. This allows you to keep your edge a fraction of a second longer while your foot starts the next turn.

In the case of stiffer boots, races generally use more power. The goal is the proper mix of strength vs. flexibility.

Interesting! I can see how SI's or even stiff bail bindings would limit the ability to move the *foot* as opposed to the *ankle and lower leg*, which is more what I like to do and what softer boots like Raichle SB series allow me to do.

I had a horrible day out freeriding/carving in a pair of stiffer Heads w/ my TD2 SIs... I felt like I couldn't move my legs and knees. What's interesting is that taking a few runs on some Burton bindings was no help! Back to Raichle SB series boots for me, sold the Heads. Didn't feel like spending a season gettiong the knack for stiffer boots!

[terekhov]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud

used older/softer Burton boots, the Furnace, in the SLC Olympics. I don't know what he's on now, but he likes the soft/soft combo.

furnace is much stiffer boot than indy.

have ridden both of them.

[Guest 2Extreme]

Well, just thought since I started this thread I'd let everyone know what I did, I went with the TD2's. Placed my order Tuesday. It seems that I couldn't go wrong with the Cateks or the TD2's. I figured I would start with a 0/3 and see what happens. Didn't know what ring to use, so I went with the medium. We'll see!!!!!!

Thanks to everyone who has responded to this thread, it appears that no matter who likes what, this is a close community of carvers and all respect each others' opinions. Hope to see y'all on the hill- (that's about the size of it in Ohio).

I'll be in Salt Lake in February if anyone wants to hook up!

Jeff

[Derf]

Originally posted by terekhov

furnace is much stiffer boot than indy.

have ridden both of them.

The Furnace are that stiff? I ride those (black 1997) and fid them not that stiff, probably because of the way I adjusted the spring. When I tried Indy's in store, they were much stiffer than my Furnace boots. Maybe it was because I was not riding or just the way they were adjusted.

[philfell]

To answer a question posted above about getting flex out of the boot insead of the binding, picture this. You go into a turn that has some bumps and chatter in it when your board hits this it gets bumped around. Thus your bindings get bumped around, thus so do your boots. You can soften your boots, but your feet are getting bumped around. All the softer boot is doing is giving your ankle move ability to absorb some of the energy. With a slightly softer binding some of this energy is absorbed before it even gets to you body.

As far as racers using stiff boots.... Snowboard boots aren't that stiff in the grand scale. If they really wanted stiff boots they would all be on ski boots. My fires really aren't that stiff, and Thordike rides in winds (they are heavily modified though).

As Gtanner states though not all racers like a softer binding. That's what's great about snowboard racing, there are so many styles and thoughts out there, it is so varied. Mort is closer to 50 than I am to 30 and he has the ability to go head to head with anyone in North America and he loves his TD step-in with the purple ring. Then you have on the other side Adam Smith, he's easily over 200 pounds and won a world cup SL on Burton race plates. Find out what works for you. Don't get too caught up in hype.

[Guest Randy S.]

Watch it Phil. Mort and I just turned 40 this year. He'll always be faster than me, so thank goodness we don't race in the same class at USASA races.

[Mike T]

Originally posted by philfell

To answer a question posted above about getting flex out of the boot insead of the binding, picture this. You go into a turn that has some bumps and chatter in it when your board hits this it gets bumped around. Thus your bindings get bumped around, thus so do your boots. You can soften your boots, but your feet are getting bumped around. All the softer boot is doing is giving your ankle move ability to absorb some of the energy. With a slightly softer binding some of this energy is absorbed before it even gets to you body.

Thanks Phil! Now I get it. :)

[Ray]

My $0.002.

The entire last season and the last 5 weeks I experimented a lot with some different combination possibilities.

I tried:

TD2 Step-in w/ Indy and UPZ

TD2 Regular w/ Indy

TD2 Regular w/ Burton Fire, Ice and Indy

Catek Step-in w/ Burton Fire, Ice and Indy

F2 Titanium Step-in w/ Burton Fire, Ice, Indy and UPZ’s

F2 Titanium Regular w/ Burton Fire, Ice, Indy, UPZ’s and Northwave .900

And to make a long story short, "I" liked the softer bindings with the medium-stiff boot the most.

So basically a bail binding with the Indy.

I found the step-ins to stiff for "me", especially in terms of lateral stiffness.

I believe that this had also to do with my body-structure/weight. I think it just makes sense,

that a guy with 180lbs. or more bends the bindings easier than a guy with 170lbs. or less.

Now the question is, do you want, or like the bindings to bend and if so, by how much.

This is what I believe. The harder you ride (especially under not so perfect conditions) and the

lower you lay it down, the more flex you want/need to get from your bindings. I believe that

people who are not in the 180lbs+ range should give it a try and directly compare/ride step-ins

and regular bail bindings under the same exact conditions.

Off course, it also plays a big role what your riding style is. When I was just cruising, I had no

issues at all with the stiff to very stiff set-up. But as soon as I started to really bend that board and

squeezed it and layed it down to the max, the softer bail binding was way more comfortable to ride but

even more important delivered much better edge hold.

This probably due to the fact that most of the energy gets absorbed in the bindings and not in the boot/legs... back to Phil's theory.

But again, I am also not the tallest and heaviest guy (5'7 / 170) and this is just "my" experience I like to share.

[Guest BRAD PETER]

Ray so which set up did you end up with?

[Ray]

Originally posted by yyzcanuck

I just can't resist... That $0.002usd is NOW almost equal to $0.02cdn since the exchange rate has started to head North! heheheh

isn't $0.002usd (two zeros) waaaaay less than $0.02cdn (one zero) anyway

If the USD should fall to such an exchange rate we all have a problem

[Ray]

Originally posted by BRAD PETER

Ray so which set up did you end up with?

Brad. Bail bindings with DeeLuxe Indy boots

[Kent]

I think we all agree that Fin and Bob need to start R&D NOW on complimentary binding to the TD......

I vote they knock off the Virus Deathlock. Very minimal machining.....

I'll place my order for 5 pair right now.....

K

[DrCR]

Originally posted by Ray

Brad. Bail bindings with DeeLuxe Indy boots

Glad to hear it. I just made a deal on a pair of Indys to go with the F2 Race Titaniums I bought from you. I was a bit intimidated in going for the Indy, but I am planning on doing a EC.com inspired spring mod.

What board are you riding?

[Guest AlpentalRider]

Originally posted by Kent

I think we all agree that Fin and Bob need to start R&D NOW on complimentary binding to the TD......

I vote they knock off the Virus Deathlock. Very minimal machining.....

I'll place my order for 5 pair right now.....

K

I'm in the same boat. I'm gonna keep riding my Burton Race Plates until they break and hopefully by then Fin and Bob will have a softer alternative to the TD2. If not, then I guess i'll be going TD2 Bails with the Yellow Ring.

[jp1]

2Extreme, thanks for this post !

When starting I was really confused about soft boots / hard boots, bindings that have flex as opposed to ones that do not, etc., etc.

Now it is clear as 'mud' !

Great Thread though. Just like 'suspension' on anything else, road bike, mtn. bike, motorcycle,street car, race car, monster truck, whatever. It's all about putting the 'forces' to the surface.

[terekhov]

Originally posted by Derf

The Furnace are that stiff? I ride those (black 1997) and fid them not that stiff, probably because of the way I adjusted the spring. When I tried Indy's in store, they were much stiffer than my Furnace boots. Maybe it was because I was not riding or just the way they were adjusted.

possibly. i mean shell/lateral stiffness, not a stiffness that depend on springs. yes, indy has almost unneeded incredibly stiff spring. and furnace - too soft spring to my liking.