bonzo Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 I double booted out today. Though it was a scary experience, it's not as scary as a single boot out. I've have a couple pairs of old Burton plates; I've never booted out of them. I have a couple pairs of Catek OS2's. I've single booted out of both pairs a couple of times. Those single boot out are attributed to operator error or boot failure (cracked heel). Today I double booted out of the Cateks on a high board angle toe side carve. All that I can think that happened was that I had a little toe drag and the front bails popped open. All the hardware is tight and the boots (head stratos pros) fit as tight as they can to the bindings. Any suggestions other than selling my Cateks to buy Ibex or Bomber bindings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bora20 Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 Straps to hold the bails down? I had a single last year on my front foot, but have since switched to stepins and no issues now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 I had a double-boot-out with some Burton bindings around 15 years ago. Did your leash break too? Mine did! Fortunately the board stopped quickly anyway. Had some single-boot-outs with a few other bindings. No boot-outs for the last ten+ years though - I switched to Intec, and this is why I'm not ever going back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonzo Posted January 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 I had a double-boot-out with some Burton bindings around 15 years ago. Did your leash break too? Mine did! Fortunately the board stopped quickly anyway.Had some single-boot-outs with a few other bindings. No boot-outs for the last ten+ years though - I switched to Intec, and this is why I'm not ever going back. Yes, the leash is toast. I've often thought of Intecs, but I've always feared getting stuck in bindings either due to the pull cable breaking or them freezing up. Are the Fin-Tec heels reliable? This piece of info may push me over the edge, if someone can positively confirm or deny. If I install Fin-Tec heals on my boots will I still be able to use my Burton Plate bindings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Ace* Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 I don't trust standard bails after booting out myself. There was a seller on Ebay last year that was selling steel intec receivers that fit nearly every bindfing out there, 99% sure they fit Burton. Not sure where to find them or that seller anymore though. Support Fin, he makes a really excellent product. I have logged almost 200 days on my Fintec setup and report no problems so far. I should say that I had a defective batch from the VERY FIRST run of Fintecs and I did get stuck in my binding the very first time I used them. Did not ruin my night though, if you have two small sticks or something(5mm hex wrench) to push the pins into the heel you are fine. Also, I had replacements before I knew it because the customer service is so excellent. Or you could also buy a spare set of standard bails so you are totally safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 All the hardware is tight and the boots (head stratos pros) fit as tight as they can to the bindings. Any suggestions other than selling my Cateks to buy Ibex or Bomber bindings? There is such a thing as too tight. If your bails are too tight, it will make it very easy for them to pop open. You will know if they are too tight, because the bend in the toe-bail steel will be too straight when your binding is closed. That bend is part of what prevents the bail from unexpectedly releasing. Could be that your bindings are too tight. See the bend in the front bail shown in the above photo? That should still be somewhat bent when your bail is closed over your boot. If it is not, your bindings are too tight, and are in danger of popping open quite easily. Maybe you could post a photo of your boot/binding interface from the side with boot locked into the binding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 I consider "booting out" to mean that your boots hit the snow while carving because of too much overhang. They do not come out of the bindings. Coming out of your bindings, having your bindings release, or double ejecting (ski term) more accurately describes what you are discussing. Coming out of your binding is a bad thing. If your bindings and boots are in good working order (assuming they are compatible), it is most likely user error and the reason needs to be found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonzo Posted January 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 While not getting hung up on semantics, the problem I have had is the Catek bindings releasing from my boots. I think we can all agree that having two feet release is bad and just one is even worse. Some of the single boot releases that I have had previously are due to failure with my UPZ boots developing a crack in the heel, thus allowing the heel to release under pressure. The cause for this double release is a mystery. As I stated before, I've never had this problem with Burton plates with four different sets of boots. I've attached a few picture for your inspection. The rear binding has a layer of tape covering the areas that do not interface with the boot. This is meant as protection for the top sheet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonzo Posted January 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Can only attach 3 at a time.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiveBomber Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 why dont you just go to the next tighter setting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John H Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 A couple of questions/ observations from looking at the pics. Just out of curiosity, which soles are you using on the boots? The hard ones or the soft ones? If it's the soft they could be compressing and giving a spring effect causing the binding to release. Although it looks like the toe bail is pretty much touching the boot it doesn't look like it's over center very much so it wouldn't take much to pop it open. Hope you get this issue resolved quickly as bindings self releasing is scary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Yes, the leash is toast. I've often thought of Intecs, but I've always feared getting stuck in bindings either due to the pull cable breaking or them freezing up. Are the Fin-Tec heels reliable?This piece of info may push me over the edge, if someone can positively confirm or deny. If I install Fin-Tec heals on my boots will I still be able to use my Burton Plate bindings? I bought Fin-tecs as soon as they came out, but I've never been stuck in a binding in all the years I've been using Intec. No freezing, no cable issues. I carry a spare set of heels just in case, but I have never had to use them. If you un-weight your heel when you step out, there's only a few pounds of force on the cable. I think they should last a long time. Once I had a pin break, but that was on the first day with a brand-new set of F2 heels. My foot stayed in the binding, and I didn't notice the problem 'til I got to end of the run and noticed my rear foot was a little loose. So I run with dual leashes for the first couple days with a new set of heels just in case. It hasn't really been an issue though, other than that one time, I'm just paranoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Intecs are a stiffer interface than standard bails and might have an effect on your riding. You are using Cateks though, so maybe it would not be that noticeable. I use standard bail F2s for the ride characteristics. One thing I did not care for with the Catek OS2s was the absence of a micro adjust. For my boot, one setting was too tight and the next setting was too loose. That was using intecs though. They might be more forgiving with standard bails. I once had an intec cable break. It was not that big of a deal but you should buy and carry (at least in your car) an extra cable if you switch to intecs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGogoussier Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 It looks like you do not have a stable latching geometry there. The two photos of your post no 9 show that the point of contact between the latch and the boot is just a few mm fore from line of force that would run through the bail. Since these shots were not taken from a perpendicular angle (to the center of the boot/binding) there is a parallax and it is not a real side view. EDIT - For more clarity: the parallax makes it look almost ok, but if you view truly sideways you may find it is totally unsafe to ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipstar Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Another option is you may be able to find a pair of the older Oxygen/Fritschi/nitro (possibly F2) bindings where the binding closure itself has a locked position onto the wire bail; I always felt this to be a more secure way to go, and AFAIK the new TD3 has a similar system now as well; finding any of these then getting or modifying your existing bail might help. Just looking at it, I'd be inclined to bend the bail closure so you could get the shape more aligned to the boot, and have the bail closer to the boot; as others say this is the reason perhaps why you are having issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Looking at the last photo in your set, It appears that your bindings are not properly adjusted. Can you move the sole blocks out a bit, so that you get better "latching geometry" out of your toe bail? As it is, does not look too stable, the toe bail is too tight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinecure Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 +1 for Fintecs and step-ins from my perspective. Way easier. Also search the forums for remote release cable set-ups people (me included) have made that allow you to pull the release cable from your hip instead of bending down. I just wish there were a step-in sidewinder. I've never had an intec release, although I do feel a lot safer with Fintecs than I ever did with Intecs. I keep my last set of Intecs around just in case I need an emergency, temporary replacement. Its been a long time since I adjusted bails, but seems to me that if you adjust the stop-screw out a bit, you may solve the problem. Worth a try while carpet surfing anyway. Oh, and a double ejection sounds safer than a single ejection. I too thought you meant your boots hit the snow and caused you to slide out. That's what boot-out means to me. What you're experiencing I'd call binding release or bail release, but that's just semantics. I quickly figured out what you meant. Oh, I've also seen people tie a piece of rope to their bail, with a knot at the end. Then close the rope inside a bottom buckle - keeps the bail from popping open in most situations, but requires an extra step or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monodude Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 I run Catek OS 2'S on my skwal's and on my MLY Alpine board. I run the screw threads about flush with the toe bail, (screw extended towards the boot) You might be passing the "fulcrum point" making it slightly loose when fully closed. As far as a micro adjustment I had to use a couple of wraps of duct tape around the heel bail on one side. Looks a little funky but does the trick nicely and allowed me to adjust it just right. Don Feed the addiction... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lafcadio Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Last season I had issues with my rear boot slipping out of my Catek OS2s. Happened multiple times even after I tightened things up. The cause turned out to be a poorly adjusted toe lever set screw. (I didn't figure this out until I finally lost the screw!) This season I was ejected from my front binding (I think front is worse than rear). I wasn't able to pinpoint a cause, but the boot or binding seemed to be affected by quickly dropping temperature. On that night my boot just didn't seem to fit right in the binding. I had some kind of lateral pivot motion (yaw) that I never had before in my Cateks. TD3s and Fintecs just arrived and I try them tomorrow for the first time. Can't wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonzo Posted January 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Thank you all for your observations and suggestions. I have many things to sort out now. To address a few of your suggestions or questions: The heel and toe blocks are as close as I can make them for my sole length. Any closer and it takes tremendous force to close the bail. If I try to move them farther apart, the boots are sloppy loose. The sole on the boots appear to be the soft ones, they came preinstalled. Swapping them out is an option. Playing with the toe bail, I believe that moving the set screw head toward the boot may aid in increasing the force exerted by the toe bail. Wrapping tape around a heel bail to snug up the size slightly may be a great solution. If Fin-Tec heels can be used with old Burton plates, I think I may convert my setup. Has anyone ever rode Fin-Tec with an old set of Burton plates? I broke a pair of boots last year and it was suggested to me that people don't crack boots with step ins. According to the Catek website, the step in conversion kits are out of stock. I've sent an email to Jeff at Catek inquiring about availability with no response yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Houghton Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 +1 on the harder soles. My Head boots came with the soft ones installed and it only took one run before I changed them. VERY soft and may be contributing to your problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Playing with the toe bail, I believe that moving the set screw head toward the boot may aid in increasing the force exerted by the toe bail. If I understand what you are suggesting, this is the exact opposite of what you want to do: you want to adjust the set screw head such that the toe bail sits flatter against your boot (and thus, decreases the amount of force exerted on the top of your boot. This force is not the issue: the issue is that the bail itself is nearly in line with the point at which the lever contacts the toe ledge, thus making it very easy for this to pop open. Looking at the photos: I wonder what size your boots are. It would seem that part of the problem is that the boot is just huge and that you cannot lower the bail any closer to the boot. what is your MP? I've got a pair of fintec step-in receivers for OS2's but I don't want to sell them without the bindings because then I would have a pair of bindings with no heels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonzo Posted January 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 If I understand what you are suggesting, this is the exact opposite of what you want to do:you want to adjust the set screw head such that the toe bail sits flatter against your boot (and thus, decreases the amount of force exerted on the top of your boot. This force is not the issue: the issue is that the bail itself is nearly in line with the point at which the lever contacts the toe ledge, thus making it very easy for this to pop open. Looking at the photos: I wonder what size your boots are. It would seem that part of the problem is that the boot is just huge and that you cannot lower the bail any closer to the boot. what is your MP? I've got a pair of fintec step-in receivers for OS2's but I don't want to sell them without the bindings because then I would have a pair of bindings with no heels. About the only way to get the level closer to the boot would be to remove the setscrew. I'm not sure that I could get my thumb under it then. The boots are MP 29. I have big high volume feet. The Cateks are supposed to fit up to MP 31, I think. I will swap out the rubber soles on my boots based on feedback. I would be willing to work on a swap of step in parts for standard closure parts, but after my tales of woe, I could understand why you may not want my toe bails. Still, no response from Jeff Caron. I should have bought Bombers or Ibex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 About the only way to get the level closer to the boot would be to remove the setscrew. I'm not sure that I could get my thumb under it then. That sounds like a problem. I would remove the set screw, and attach a very short loop of cord to allow you to pull it up in that case. Something else you may want to consider: shave a bit of height off your sole blocks to lower the overall height of the boot and thus improve the locking geometry of the toe lever? Otherwise: It seems like the problem is the height of the boot toe, paired with the lack of micro-adjustability of the OS2's. I'd just go with selling the OS2's here, and getting a pair TD3 of stepin bindings, given your situation ... but that is a more costly solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjvircks Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 One thing to mention that I don't think has been brought up here yet is that there is a significant difference in the shrinkage that occurs when the boots/bindings are cold. The plastic boots shrink more than the aluminum bindings and steel bails and so the setup becomes loose when cold. A second thing not yet discussed is the amount of force you need to apply to the toe clamp lever to close it. When I set up my bindings to work at home (in the house) with suitable closing force they would become loose on the hill from boot shrinkage. It took me a while to dial in the setup that worked 'on hill'. Before I was finished with this tweakage I used a thin bungie cord loop on the toe of my boot to hold the lever down. :biggthumpTwo big thumbs up to Fin's micro adjusting bail lugs! On my TD2s you remove one bail attach screw, swing the bail one full turn on the still mounted lug, make one turn on the loose lug, then reattach to sole block. A quick/painless on-the-hill micro adjustment! Just make sure you do not over extend the bail out of the lugs. At least when you are tightening a setup to account for cold shrinkage you are going towards more thread engagement. Easily micro adjust Cateks? Fugetaboutit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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