Looking for a side cut education...

[Flywalker]

On modern boards, what would represent a typical slalom radius? What would be the extremes for a slalom radius?

l would also appreciate it if someone could answer the same question re: GS side cuts.... typical GS and extremes.

Thanks!

[snowboardfast]

The best thing to do to answer this question would be to contact the companies that make boards that you are interested in to find out the scr. Also if you could demo boards to see how they work for you? Today's new race boards have variable sidecut radius. People on this forum who have been riding the new boards for a while say that it is possible to do a large variety of turn sizes on the new boards due to the design. I have not ridden them enough to comment and don't know if I could do this any way?

[Flywalker]

Fair enough...

The reason l am asking is because looking at some of the maker's websites there are GS boards from as short as 163 to over 185 and side cuts that range from 10M to 17M.... with a blend of SCRs also available. l haven't seen much on the slalom side.

Just wondering if a bigger side cut can still do smaller turns and a smaller side cut can crank out the big ones.... and why would one be preferable to another.

[philw]

Perhaps the manufacturers on here would be the best people to answer that.

As you've spotted, SL boards have tighter sidecuts in general, although there are people here who have experimented with short boards with longer sidecuts. Looking at the SL-length boards I have they're around 10m radius, although they are at best ellipsoid so you need to know what they're measuring.

As noted, the last few years have seen variable sitecuts. See JM's article on recreational GS race boards. In summary broadly the new designs have a tighter radius at the front than the back. Also those big boards have radii which "average" (not sure how that's measured) somewhere from about 15-20m.

Looking at SL boards, Kessler uses Clothoid curves and quotes radii as:

10.2m (163), 9.6m (156), 9m (150). I've a 2003 Donek FC1 163 with a 10m sidecut (presumably elliptical). But you can't of course ignore other things like materials, taper, and base profile.

I don't have a problem running long radius turns with a slalom board. Ask the big boys how they get on with their big boards doing short turns. The main thing for me is that with a SL board you cease to get support from the board at very high speeds. So your GS board is "better" than my SL board at race-course speeds. However how much of that is side-cut and how much is construction and flex is debatable. At high G my SL board is fully reverse cambered before a bigger, stiffer, longer board would be.

Summary: probably you won't want to worry too much about sidecut. The numbers are an indicator of how a board may behave, but no more than that. It's a bit like THD for hi-fi amps: interesting, but you still have to listen to the thing to know what it'll do.

[lowrider]

Everything that was previously said and..................... it changes.The design of boards is always changing fueled by advanced rider demand and many other factors $$$$$. Plates are adding a new dimension to board performance and it is now possible to ride a longer board with a larger sidecut radius that feels shorter with a plate. I think you have three choices, demo lots of boards, take the advice of someone you trust or buy as many boards as Oldsnowboards (Bryan).

[Flywalker]

The main thing for me is that with a SL board you cease to get support from the board at very high speeds. So your GS board is "better" than my SL board at race-course speeds. However how much of that is side-cut and how much is construction and flex is debatable. At high G my SL board is fully reverse cambered before a bigger, stiffer, longer board would be.

Thank you Phil and Snowman.... l got a lot out of your posts and those links! l think l have read JM's report two or three times, now.... and l have a mental grip on float as well.

Going on what you were saying, Phil... you cease to get support at very high speeds. ls this due to length or side cut... or both? You commented about some people putting GS SCRs on shorter boards... l wonder if one could put a smaller side cut on a longer board? Not 170+ long but high 160's long?

There was a guy who was selling a Coiler AMT 172 on here a few weeks back... Mark Pinch l believe. He had that board custom made with a 10.5M SCR. That sounds like a very interesting combination. l wonder how something like a Prior FLC 169 wide would ride with a 10/12 SCR instead of an 11/13?

[KingCrimson]

Try this out for some reading. Float and peadaling are a much discussed and argued topic here. One side of the house feels that a snowboard will only operate and perform to the manufacturers specifications, the other side insists that a board can be made to perform well beyond what the specs list through force and deliberate manulipulation of the snowboard with practices known as pedaling and float. Try here http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=30262&highlight=float and here http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25979&highlight=float for some excellent information and debate.

Think Snow!

Semi-O/T...I think figured out your floating theory. It seems to work really well on boards with bad flex patterns like my FP. Ordinarily I found the soft nose/stiff tail combination is rather binary, it's either too turny or not turny enough. You posted in that thread "bobble through some funky chowder", which is a very good way to describe it. I feel like it's accomplished by easing up on the pressure to stall the carve for a moment, which is visible in trenches as a flat blip. It's also entirely possible that I get to that point through pedalling.

That said, I still feel that it's unnecessary. As far as I have observed, newer boards don't need this input, both by virtue of their ability to bulldoze through crud, and the way newschool shapes cleanly open and close turns.

Since causing that stink about pedalling this summer, I really spent my most recent days paying attention to independent foot inputs. Since it's one way to get the board rolling on edge before you're moving fast enough to carve, I can certainly see it would be valid in the first one or two gates in a race. I have all season to experiment with it, so I think it will be a fun technical challenge to play around with something different.

[NateW]

For conventional / single-radius boards, I think this is pretty representative:

http://www.donek.com/specs_hard.html

SL boards are mostly 8-12 meters (I have a hunch that the sub-10m boards are mostly for smaller riders, but it's just a hunch).

GL boards are mostly 12-15 meters.

For new-school boards / multi-radius boards, I got no idea. Haven't tried one yet.

You can make a board with a large sidecut radius turn tight, if you lean way in, however that requires going faster than you'd go on a shorter-sidecut board. If you ride in a place with narrow or crowded runs, versus wide open runs that will factor into what's more fun. There's also the question of how fast you prefer to ride.

For how and where I ride, I found 13m to be the sweet spot. 10m boards whip around too fast. I have a 15m board that's really fun, but only mid-week when there's fewer people around, and it's kind of awkward to maneuver in the slow zones. If you can buy 2-3 boards from the classifieds here, that will help you figure out what's most fun for you.

[Flywalker]

If you ride in a place with narrow or crowded runs, versus wide open runs that will factor into what's more fun. There's also the question of how fast you prefer to ride.

If you can buy 2-3 boards from the classifieds here, that will help you figure out what's most fun for you.

Good point. l am a weekend warrior which means having to deal with the mobile obstacle course on just about every run. Speed is fun but the opportunity to really open it up doesn't come around as often as the need to change direction NOW.

Perhaps a perusal of what's being flogged in the Classifieds isn't such a bad idea.

[Corey]

Yeah, I owned an older F2 183 with a 16m sidecut for a while. No fun at all on crowded slopes or narrow runs. I found it quite stressful to ride in those conditions. But yet my Coiler Monster 14/15m board is easy and playful in the same conditions. Granted - there's a quantum leap in technology between those two boards!

Two boards with the same radius aren't going to turn exactly the same, but the number can provide a reference. i.e. a 11m radius board is going to turn tighter than a 14m radius board on the same run with the same rider inputs.

I had some fun playing at the SES demo tent last year, Coiler had something like 9.5, 10.5, 11.5, 12.5m average radius boards. (Can't remember the exact numbers, and each one was a VSR blend of varying sidecuts) It was quite interesting jumping between them. Each step was subtle, but going from the 9.5 to the 12.5 really highlighted the difference.

[Flywalker]

I saw video of you riding in Nakiska Corey... you RIP!

[Jack M]

Dunno if you've seen these already, but here is a general guide to buying alpine boards:

http://www.bomberonline.com//articles/how_to_buy_snowboard.cfm

and here is some theory on sidecut radius:

http://www.bomberonline.com//articles/physics.cfm

[Corey]

I saw video of you riding in Nakiska Corey... you RIP!

Haha, thanks! Did you see the video of the other guys and gals there? I learned a lot from the awesome Alberta crew!

[Surf Quebec]

You can check at http://www.sgsnowboards.com, you have the specs including sidecut radius from 157 to 185 boards.

Be aware of the stiffness of the board also. I'm riding a 2009 SG 163 full race T and it's quite stiffer than my previous boards (Nidecker, Sims Burner) so I can not carve as small half-circle as my previous boards.

[Tscherno-Bill]

........

SL boards are mostly 8-12 meters (I have a hunch that the sub-10m boards are mostly for smaller riders, but it's just a hunch).

GSL boards are mostly 12-15 meters.

You can make a board with a large sidecut radius turn tight, if you lean way in, however that requires going faster than you'd go on a shorter-sidecut board. If you ride in a place with narrow or crowded runs, versus wide open runs that will factor into what's more fun. There's also the question of how fast you prefer to ride.

..............

That's it. The question of how fast you prefer to ride, where you will ride and when you will do it.

Grab a Board with the standard SL or GSL radii or ride a special one:

f.E.: 252cm Board with a tiny SCR of 19,5-20m or a 235cm Board with a cool 35m SCR....

[Flywalker]

Awesome!

Thank you for the links and comments, everyone. Boat loads of info for me to ponder.

3 more weeks until my season starts.... can't wait!

[NateW]

Yeah, I owned an older F2 183 with a 16m sidecut for a while. No fun at all on crowded slopes or narrow runs. I found it quite stressful to ride in those conditions. But yet my Coiler Monster 14/15m board is easy and playful in the same conditions. Granted - there's a quantum leap in technology between those two boards!

The 15m board that I only ride mid-week is an F2 183. One of us might be wrong about the sidecut. :) It's really fun when there's room for it... after riding that for a while, my regular board (13m) feels slow.

I keep hearing things about the new-style boards that I just don't understand... 14/15m, turns tight? Low speeds? For real? I'm gonna hafta try one soon.

[Corey]

The 15m board that I only ride mid-week is an F2 183. One of us might be wrong about the sidecut. :) It's really fun when there's room for it... after riding that for a while, my regular board (13m) feels slow.

I keep hearing things about the new-style boards that I just don't understand... 14/15m, turns tight? Low speeds? For real? I'm gonna hafta try one soon.

No idea on the actual radius on that F2. It may as well have been straight if there was anyone else on a narrow run! ;) It was great fun in Aspen but scary at home. (Trees! Trees! Trees! Ahh, middle of the run, switch edges... Trees! Trees! Lift tower! Ahh, middle of the run, switch edges...) LOL!

Yes, the new stuff can be bent into surprisingly tight arcs if you have some speed or steepness on your side. At sub-15 mph I don't like the 14/15m Monster, but at 20+ mph I'm fine with whatever I encounter. (Those speeds are about as accurate as my sidecut guess was above :p)

[Jack M]

I keep hearing things about the new-style boards that I just don't understand... 14/15m, turns tight? Low speeds? For real? I'm gonna hafta try one soon.

Pretty sure the Monster is significantly softer than a race board.

Indeed, stepping off the Kessler, Donek, and Coiler PGS boards and onto the single radius Prior 187 (15m) was eye-opening. The Prior felt a lot turnier by comparison. The new shapes are interesting in that you can crank the top half of the turn around pretty tightly, and then draw out the bottom half and hold on. Which makes sense, because that is when g-forces build up causing you to do more traversing than turning.

[Donek]

I have a video planned on VSR, but it doesn't look like it will happen in December. I'm too busy. In general, old school sidecuts for SL ranged from 8 to 9 meters and GS ranged from 13 to 15 at the world cup level. That has all changed with VSR, but you can be pretty certain those old number will at least be included in the VSR range. I don't think too any people are publishing their VSR radii. You can check out what I do under the specs for the individual models on my site and of course discuss those numbers with me when you order.

[kieran]

You can check out what I do under the specs for the individual models on my site and of course discuss those numbers with me when you order.

you were doing some testing with a VSR that tightened up toward the tail of the board, 14-20-18 i think it might have been. what came of that?

[Flywalker]

The Prior felt a lot turnier by comparison. The new shapes are interesting in that you can crank the top half of the turn around pretty tightly, and then draw out the bottom half and hold on. Which makes sense, because that is when g-forces build up causing you to do more traversing than turning.

This is very interesting. l have no experience with new tech at all, however with my old board l used to love diving into the turn and then using the "g"s on the way out to literally catapult me into the next turn, often catching air off the tail. With VSR will that "bounce" be gone from the back end? lf so l may be better off looking at a WCRM instead of an FLC.... or l will need to do something with my technique to get the most out of VSR.

l don't like traversing all that much... just enough to finish off my previous turn. lt seems counter-intuitive to ride the nose all the way through a turn if one wishes to make a smaller radius turn. l've always finished hard on the tail, or at least centered on the board.

[Jack M]

This is very interesting. l have no experience with new tech at all, however with my old board l used to love diving into the turn and then using the "g"s on the way out to literally catapult me into the next turn, often catching air off the tail. With VSR will that "bounce" be gone from the back end? lf so l may be better off looking at a WCRM instead of an FLC.... or l will need to do something with my technique to get the most out of VSR.

l don't like traversing all that much... just enough to finish off my previous turn. lt seems counter-intuitive to ride the nose all the way through a turn if one wishes to make a smaller radius turn. l've always finished hard on the tail, or at least centered on the board.

Well, first things first... while VSR does stand for variable sidecut radius, and modern PGS boards certainly do have those, the first person I noticed use that acronym was Bruce Varsava, of Coiler snowboards. He uses it to describe his 3-radius boards, which are freecarve oriented and have that good old snappy, hooky tail response you're talking about. The radii are generally shorter in the nose and tail and longer in the middle.

Modern PGS (parallel giant slalom) boards have strictly increasing radii - shorter in the nose, longer in the tail. Coiler calls these shapes NSR for new school race. Prior calls them FLC for fall-line carve. It sounds like this is not what you are looking for. So for Priors I'd say you'd probably like the WCRM better, but ideally you would demo both somehow, like at an expression session.

[Flywalker]

... ideally you would demo both somehow, like at an expression session.

l'll be the first one in line when you bring an Expression Session to Niseko!!!

[BlueB]

...is well placed. ;)

I thought you ordered an FLC already? Wtf, just relax, you'll like whatever you buy. Keep the average radius under 12m, or stick to SL demarcation if nothing else is available and you are golden.