Where is Carving Headed?

[Alaskan Rover]

Then just buy a pair of bindings and slap them on to the board of your choice. What's holding you back? There's nothing saying the board has to be skinny. I ran plates on a Burton Asym Air for years. Plates with the AT boots and freeride board you already have is a pretty cheap introduction to hard booting.

I am just wondering if even with my very wide board, if I would still be able to ride at 15/5 if I use binding such as the TD2, given my size 13 boots...as the toe-piece adds some length to the set-up. I may have to go with some riser plates to limit toe-drag. That's what got me into thinking about a different format for a binding in the first place...was that increased length that the toe-piece adds to it, causing problems with lower angle stances. :(

[KingCrimson]

Carving isn't gonna go anywhere till we answer the question.

Where did this weirdness with plates in the BC come from? That is entirely unrelated. You're talking about adopting carving equipment to all-mountain riding.

Carving also isn't going anywhere until instructing theory heads towards BX and Pipe, both of which require quite a bit of carving. This is the key to advancing carving, not irrationally investing money in making expensive tweaks to AT boots. I would much rather move capital to a softboot with crampon ledges and a rigid sole (relatively cheap modification, WITH a market) than a stratospherically expensive boot shell mold.

Let's play the boot investment game.

How big is the snowboarding industry? 50 billion a year? 75? Gee, that's a lot of money!

Now, how many of those people go into the BC and buy gear specifically for it?

How many of THOSE people ride hardboots? You can probably find a good number of the US folks between here and TGR.

Say strictly the tooling for the boots costs $30,000 per boot size. This should be reasonable if developing a new shell is about $200,000 per size. You're modifying a current shell design in the heel area and maybe the cuff pivot, but largely leaving the rest of the design alone.

Let's assume some kind soul on BOL donated the R&D for dintec and lateral flex to save money.

Because the lateral flex mods happen in the boot lower, that means you're making a new boot lower for every size. Being a niche product, you don't have to invest in all the common sizes. A range of M25 to M30 sounds reasonable, only 6 lowers at a cost of $180000 total.

It would take Scarpa a LONG time to turn a profit on those shells, which means a lot of tied up capital. That is, assuming you can find some mouthbreather to cough up the investment.

Funny oxymoron, I use plates everywhere because I can't afford softies.

Boardski- When was the last time you used softies? It seems like a lot of the benefits you find in using poles and relatively low hardboot angles all are present in softboots.

You're praising precision as well, but using admittedly noodly Raichles on BX boards? That's a pretty big contradiction.

There's a crapload of play in raceplates at my weight (210) that is great for playing around, but bails and baseplates fatigue and crack. A softboot is obviously much better in this respect, as it won't structurally fail unless the spine breaks.

[John H]

Why do carving set ups have to be super versatile? They are designed to perform at a high level on groomed runs.

Just like I don't take my race stock slaloms with plug boots into trees and powder I don't see any reason to take my carving boards into trees and powder either.

Whether you buy snowboard or ski equipment, to get the best performance for given conditions, it has become very specialized. Carving boards and hard boots=race skis and STIFF boots. Soft boots and wider boards =softer ski boots and freeride skis. Yes thats a lot of equipment but if you want the best for the conditions you ride in then you have to decide what your priorities performance wise are.

Now if I could get race ski boots as cheap as snowboard hard boots I'd be really happy.

[b0ardski]

I bought new flows and burton drivers at the beginning of this season and used them on the 25x173 twin tip Identity at28*r/40*f, good setup for straps & laces. After a couple sessions in soft fresh snow, the eventual foot pain & squishy response (not bad for softies) made me anxious to get back into the comfy shells & stepin plates, especially on the rough early season groomers. No weirdness for me, Ive been using plates in the BC for 20 yrs.

I don't use the 3 buckle raichles with thermoflex (very surfy) for carving the 18 wide boards, especially the uber stiff 185 Identity carbon race, as I do believe in "the right tool for the job". All my tools use the same plugin, Nitro stepins. Convenient, simple & durable.

As far as boot investment, (Ignoring for the moment DINtech heels) Scarpa NTN/ATs only need to add an elongated hinge lockout for lateral flex (unnecessary with sidewinders) and an adjustable forward lean (some models already have 2-3 position walk mode). Using plates on the whole mountain is where carving is headed, otherwise it's back down the same groomer again on gear that's already approaching the pinnacle of functionality.

As far as size 13s at 5*, toe drag is a drag, I'm sorry for your misfortune, hope you can find a 28 wide board.

[energyrail]

For most people a true carve or race board setup 200mm waist, 60 degree angles will never work for them on anything steeper than a easy blue. And lots of hills I have rode in Alberta and BC don't have many runs suitable for me on a race board. But I can carve lots and ride all mountain on a wider board. More versatile boards are far eaiser to ride everywhere not just in the trees, bumps and powder.

Not everybody is a freak of nature that can carve steep icy groomers on 15 m radius board. running 60 degree angles. but yet I see a big chunk of the alpine market catering to it just that.

But my home mountain has trouble having terrain for beginner skiers and softboot riders. so a beginner alpine rider trying to carve steeper narrow blue runs just isn't going to happen.

But riding 45/40 on a freeride setup carving steep stuff is far easier.

But yet when people see a hardboot setup on the freeride board they think it is a special board too.

So the sport needs user friendly setups to grow. not 200mm entry level freecarve boards for less than 500 dollars.

Back east and on hills with good terrain for it maybe it is just fine

[Alaskan Rover]

....//....Whether you buy snowboard or ski equipment, to get the best performance for given conditions, it has become very specialized. Carving boards and hard boots=race skis and STIFF boots. Soft boots and wider boards =softer ski boots and freeride skis.

I don't quite agree with the "soft" part of your argument. Stiff boots and racing skis do go well together, of course. As a former ski racer, I realize that one without the other is totally losing ANY advantage of either.

However, soft ski-boots have NEVER had a place in my locker. In my view, soft ski boots are strictly for beginner and intermediate rec skiers, and really have no place in the quiver of an expert skier....unless one happens to be one of those skiers that ski with their skis like 2 inches apart all the way down the mountain and body always straight up, as if standing in a subway car(the 'fashion' skier). I've used my stiff race boots on powder skis (Fat Boys), and they performed admirably...I just loosened the buckles a little. Now your point that: "soft boots and wider boards = softer ski boots and freeride skis" is invalid, I think. As I had mentioned above...soft ski boots basically belong with intermediates or people more concerned with comfort rather than performance, and are basically garbage in terms of boots. Soft snowboard boots, on the other hand, are often very performance driven, at least at the expert level. My Jamie Lynns certainly don't fall in the intermediate category...most beginners and intermediate boarders would find them TOO stiff. Anyway, the boarders hucking themselves off of 130 foot long jumps (15-20 feet in the air), are also using soft boots and they need to be able to land VERY precisely or die. A few of them use MY boots. That sounds like performance to me...and should not simply be compared to soft intermediate ski boots.

I've never tried the type of freestyle skiing they're doing with today's twin-tip skis....maybe softer boots are beneficial there. I just know I HATE soft ski-boots, they're simply not performance boots.

[b0ardski]

....maybe softer boots are beneficial there. I just know I HATE soft board-boots, they're simply not performance boots.

[Alaskan Rover]

Photo below originally posted by B0ardski:

What on EARTH is that board(s) on the right? Looks like a weidel-board that I remember seeing a LONG time ago ('noodle-board', maybe???).

Sorta reminds me of those wierd looking contraptions that kids are riding on the sidewalks these days. You should be able to 'pump' some super quick little turns with that board. How does it ride??

[nekdut]

Hyarc. Use bomber search for more info.

[b0ardski]

There's a couple old threads that tell all about it.

I actually rode it for the 1st time of the season last week, all it wants to do are quick slalom turns in the fall line. It says 9m on it but it does 2m turns the best.

[philw]

I get a little frustrated with HBers that tout the precision & edge control afforded by a plate binding interface and then revert to straps & laces to go off piste. Now, by all means, leave the stiff race boots and 18cm boards on groomers and get some 225s or old 3 buckles of any brand and hook'em up to some F2s or sidewinders on an over 20 wide board that doesn't require 60+ angles.

Me too; I can't see why you'd want lower performance gear in powder. For me, if anything, I want higher performance as the trees are much closer together out there in the real world. I hear all the time that it can't be done. I never hear it when I'm waiting at the pickup for the softies to arrive.... There's slow gear and there's fast gear, and I'm only carrying one type.

Post holing? Ok, I tend to work the terrain harder than most riders, but if I do have to walk then I'm out of my Intecs faster than the laces can be undone on those leather wellingtons. Actually my (mountain) climbing boots are hard shell plastic too... post holing is no harder either way. It's all technique.

But I didn't start snowboarding so I could be one of the herd. I don't care if everyone else rides park gear or (more likely) skis. What of it, so long as I can get my gear?

Where I live there are no mountains - the land's flat as far as the sea. 99% of the bicycles here are "Mountain Bikes" - they have big fat tyres and gearing for climbing the sides of houses. Some of us still ride road bikes with skinny tyres and close-ratio gearing. We ride hard and fast, even though the fashion is to be slow and fat.

Some people like riding fast more than they like fashion. Fashion shaped the business in the 1990s and I think it'll take a while for that particular cohort to move through the system before you can have (for example) BX racers riding the fastest gear you can get, rather than something which doesn't make the mass market look lame.

[photodad2001]

I honestly think that in the next 10 years, as long as manufactures are will to comply, and produce actual entry level gear at a entry level price, this tiny little nitch sport could consume up to 10% of the snowboarding market.

+1 totally agree

[photodad2001]

The sport wont grow with these outrageous prices they have for alpine gear!

Why the hell is alpine gear so expensive?

I was thinking of changing to softboots just because buying new alpine gear would have cost me 3 times the money!

A couple of years ago my board broke boots cracked and heal bail also all in the same season and for a g-force blade s i needed over 1000$(here in Greece!?!?!?) over 500$ for boots and another 300$ for bindings that makes us 1800$ and for a good freeride all mountain set (very good discounts because of the quantity of offerings!)i would have spent 600-700!

Luckily i discovered e-bay that saved me!

+1 totally agree

[photodad2001]

The trend is starting now. There's going to be hard and softboot carvers. (not like there was before, but the soft side is catching up) The BX movement in the serious alpine board makers is going to create a second division of "alpine" riders. The improvements made in softboots and bindings, combined with the new flow of softbooters carvers and the overall cost primarily in boots and bindings on the "hard" side, there's going to be a segregation that is already happening. The tech is advancing in the softboot and binding department from the "Walmart" guys (Salomon, Burton, Northwave), and the names like Kessler, Madd, Donek, etc. are making the boards to go along with it. Of course they will still be making the gear for the Hard Boot scene, but there is a new animal on the slopes now and it is growing.

Saw this a few days ago and in my oppinion the softbooter rocked the socks off the hard booters. Just my oppinion of the riders in the vid, sorry.

http://www.vimeo.com/9606839

[Transistor Rhythm]

The softbooter is way better skilled than the rest, I'm sure he would be doing even better when on hardboots. I see him perform very dynamic push pull and rotation, the hardbooters don't really do that, just some lazy carving. You can also see the combination of his angles and rotation technique prevent heelside ass out.

I'm pretty sure this guy normally rides hardboots, probably Swoard or a similar board. The technique is pretty much the same and works perfectly to get your angles up on such a wide board.

[leeho730]

1) style: all-mountain recreational carving or eurocarving

2) flex (eg. SW, BTS)

3) metal

4) artificial core (but wood has been performing well, so why fix when it ain't broken?)

Note: what I mean by "all-mountain recreational carving" is the emergence of freecarve boards with width >20cm such as UFC or widening of some of freecarve boards eg. Donek FC, Prior WCR or FLC etc...

[photodad2001]

1) style: all-mountain recreational carving or eurocarving

+1 The style is what brings people into the sport and guys like Caspercarver are the best advertisement carving could have.

[carvedog]

There is so much jacked up rhetoric in this thread it blows me away.

Hard boots on race boards are not a beginner setup. That you failed is no surprise.

You have to learn how to drive a manual tranny, medium powered car ( let's say stock cars ) before you can get into an F1. That is only logical. That some of you expect stock car versatility from an F1 is ludicrous.

I ride Hbs everywhere, all the time. Bumps, trees, groomed - I don't really care. While I have searched for a quiver killer I haven't found the one true one yet. So I have two main boards to ride if its a "carving" day I take out a race board. If it's an All terrain day, then I take that one.

A few of you are still thinking like soft booters and that = fail.

If you don't want the support and precision that hbs give then stay on your soft stuff.

Saying the manufacturers should produce entry level gear is :smashfrea:smashfrea:smashfrea too.

They do. It's any board that you want to mount plates on. You can get setups all day long for comparable to softie prices. Maybe used vs new but it still compares.

I sold a pair of looked like new Burton boots for $200 I think. And they did look like new. Are softie boots cheaper than that?

Good used plates for $100 to $150 all day long. What do freestyle binders run? Not less than that I wouldn't think. Haven't priced them lately and don't care for the most part.

And Ak Rover when you say that a "soft" ski boot has no place in an expert skiers quiver, I feel the same way about snowboard boots.

If you want mush go eat some apple sauce.

[/end of rant]

[valsam]

+1 The style is what brings people into the sport and guys like Caspercarver are the best advertisement carving could have.

But how dare you say this,this is blaspheme!

Caspercarver doesn't ride a super(long,stiff,and very expensive!) metal board with a apex plate system ,there is no way that that style looks cooler and is more fun without the gear i mentioned above which is very much needed (and much praised!)for most of the 50+ age super gs racers in here!

[pokkis]

I believe that Swoard team and their videos has bring more people to carving on this decade than any other phenomen :)

Metal boards are next big thing due it allows folks ride with better performance longer

Plates are just coming for normal carving so let's see what is impact of them, but as long price tag is on level of board it is hard to belive they will make any big success

[Scott.Creer]

I do not believe that alpine snowboarding, hardbooting, or even PGS will become more popular until small "feeder" ski areas start carrying rentals for hardbooting. If someone wants to try hardbooting for the first time in lets say Minneapolis, MN they would need to know someone who has the gear to let them use, or make the leap and spend the $1,000 bucks on used gear when they don't even really know what to get.

Also, as a trend ski resorts and areas are seeing a decline of about 5% to 10% annually of return skiers. This is bad news for everyone not only hardbooters. If local small time ski areas keep seeing a decline as they have over the last 20 years, then more of them will close and the costs of the remaining resorts will increase. This makes people learning to ski and ride decline even further do to cost and accessibility.

I say all this not to paint a bleak picture, but a harsh reality that will in fact impact everyone in the future. Ski areas should embrace reductions in price, possibly even ski free programs for children between 5 and 7 years old, and also embrace all winter sports by enlarging rentals services for more of a variety of winter sports (not just skis and boards, but snow bikes, blades, hardboot gear, etc...).

[photodad2001]

Ski areas should embrace reductions in price, possibly even ski free programs for children between 5 and 7 years old.

I actually disagree with this part. Even with the addition of 2 new lifts over the last 5 years, I've never seen lift lines as long as they were this year. The great part about where I go is you could take 20+ runs in a hand full of hours, but this year I spent more time in line then I did riding. I do agree that resorts should offer hardboot gear as rentals. They wouldn't need a fleet, but a few in some varying sizes would be nice.