Health Care Bill

[Jack M]

most people do I think.

that's beside the point though. the issue is insurance costs are high and they don't mean anything because your claim could be denied. not to mention the cost of actual care. there's more than one single problem.

as far as insurance goes you're essentially denied what you pay for OR it's financially out of reach in the first place.

I agree these are also problems that need to be fixed. Somehow. However I and most people I know have had good luck with getting things covered by insurance, including our 2 week stay in the NICU. You can't just blanketly say that you always get denied.

I'm just stating this is my biggest moral issue with universal healthcare. I think it is one of the elephants in the room that nobody wants to admit. I see so many people choosing to live an unhealthy lifestyle. I don't want to pay for them. I guess that makes me a bad person. Oh well.

[Steve Prokopiw]

Great idea!!! ;)

Hey, this is OT. It is largely unmoderated. Almost anything goes. Hmm, well, you did just violate rule #1 in this forum, but, meh.

Why is it so hard for you to see how engaging in risky or stupid activities like smoking and over-eating without insurance is irresponsible?

is designed to exploit people's tendancies toward addiction of all types.It won't get any better under the new plan unfortunately.

Jogging would be great for the populace,and would likely make them live longer and be less of a drain,but it could cause injury...Daily exercise,healthy eating habits,affordable sports in schools, all things that are increasingly lacking and would help toward a more productive populace,but also not without risk.

You violated the first rule as well;by referring to the undoubtly more than a few members here without insurance as 'stupid' for snowboarding.It can be easily 5000.00 a year for insurance.A broken arm could be 1000.00 or it could be more or it could be less,but it's a calculated risk that could just as easily result in money saved as it could money poured into the pockets of a bloated industry of legalized gambling(with most going to the 'casinos') that is freemarket insurance.

[bobdea]

I agree these are also problems that need to be fixed. Somehow. However I and most people I know have had good luck with getting things covered by insurance, including our 2 week stay in the NICU. You can't just blanketly say that you always get denied.

I'm just stating this is my biggest moral issue with universal healthcare. I think it is one of the elephants in the room that nobody wants to admit. I see so many people choosing to live an unhealthy lifestyle. I don't want to pay for them. I guess that makes me a bad person. Oh well.

I'm not saying you always get denied but I am saying it's akin to playing the lotto in reverse with very very good odds against you.

as far as the issue of you not wanting to pay for others, well, you already are in ways you might not realize.

that cost is rolled into your private insurance and what the hospitals charge in the first place. then on to the backs of employers, that should not happen.

there's no first world country other than the US that does not have some sort of measure to deflect insurance costs from the employer. it's called universal health care. simply put to be able to compete you need it.

seriously, when you even posted a article stating our jobs are going to austria that should tell you something. china I get but that fact that any place in europe is cheaper to operate should tell you something.

[Dr D]

And when she turns up at the ER, you and I will be paying to treat her chronic conditions, because she hadn't had seen a health care professional for years. If she had had health care insurance she would have been harangued every time she went in for something minor, about living better. At worst her diabetes would have been caught before her foot was amputated and she needed a bypass. All on our dime, because we pay through higher insurance cost, or Medicaid, and SS (as she would be disabled). This health care is going to save us money in the long run. CBO backed that up.

these people dont go to doctors till they are to far gone bob. proactive wellness initiatives are the only way to fix this. Plus Liberty means the right to be stupid if you want to. she needs to be responsible for her own actions.

[Steve Prokopiw]

It's a lot different morally. I have health insurance, and I wouldn't snowboard without it. If I was stupid enough to go snowboarding without insurance, then I should be SOL.

Bottom line is personal responsibility. Sure there are people who truly need and deserve the safety net. But it's a much smaller number than a lot of people would like to believe.

(tangent: I can't even count how many houses I drive past on the way to the mountain where the people are obviously poor, like, half the house is missing siding, but hey, there's the DirecTV dish mounted on the roof! )

If you break your neck snowboarding and are on life support for a few weeks before being pronounced brain dead,your family would still be broke even with insurance, and your kids would be without a dad. And even if you had the ultimate in insurance and your family were financially fine,your kids would still be without a dad.And even if you live, but are totally dependent on round the clock care,your kids and wife will have had their lives altered irreparably .

Insurance may make you slightly more responsible,in the eyes of those who can afford it(definitely your own) but it does not prevent the possiblity of losing that which really matters.

[Jack M]

I'm not saying you always get denied but I am saying it's akin to playing the lotto in reverse with very very good odds against you.

I'd need to see that data.

as far as the issue of you not wanting to pay for others, well, you already are in ways you might not realize.

that cost is rolled into your private insurance and what the hospitals charge in the first place.

of course I realize that, come on. I'm just saying I don't like it, and I think it's morally wrong that people who make good decisions have to pay the way for people who make bad decisions. Someone said that conservatives consider this an economic issue, not moral. I consider it both and I think a lot of people do.

I suppose there's no way to dictate whether or not someone gets coverage based on the quality of the choices they make, so what do we do, just cover everybody blindly? I think that would be wrong. So then we have to start talking about not covering people if they're smokers or obese or didn't wear a helmet on their motorcycle or any number of unappealing topics. Pretty soon we're living under Big Brother.

then on to the backs of employers, that should not happen.

there's no first world country other than the US that does not have some sort of measure to deflect insurance costs from the employer.

seriously, when you even posted a article stating our jobs are going to austria that should tell you something. china I get but that fact that any place in europe is cheaper to operate should tell you something.

I agree these are problems. I want the solution to reward personal responsibility.

[Jack M]

If you break your neck snowboarding and are on life support for a few weeks before being pronounced brain dead,your family would still be broke even with insurance, and your kids would be without a dad. And even if you had the ultimate in insurance and your family were financially fine,your kids would still be without a dad.And even if you live, but are totally dependent on round the clock care,your kids and wife will have had their lives altered irreparably .

Insurance may make you slightly more responsible,in the eyes of those who can afford it(definitely your own) but it does not prevent the possiblity of losing that which really matters.

Of course. My point is that there is a huge difference between participating in risky but otherwise healthy activities like snowboarding, and eating your way to obesity or smoking. They're not even close.

[Dr D]

wow, paranoid and off the mark.

dude, elvis is dead, oswald killed kennedy and atlas shrugged is fiction, not a documentary.

Atlas shrugged is a philosophy Bob. If the novel didn't quite stimulate you try reading her epistimolgy. Same stuff but really dry. "The virtue of selfishness" is a great ,if somewhat inflammatory, read. Ayn Rand is very relevant to this discussion because of where whe came from. She escaped out of Communist russia. We would do well to head her warnings.

[Dr D]

It's not a lot different morally from paying to save your ass after you've crashed into a tree due to the bad decision to take up a dangerous sport. If we follow your logic, everyone should live in a rubber room and eat tofu in order to enjoy universal health care.

By his logic we all are responsible for our own actions. feel free to ride without a helmet. I dont care. I wear one because its smart. ITs not my place to legislate your happiness. Our constitution guarantees the right to be stupid. IT is not govts place to keep us safe from ourselves only safe from others. I should not have to pay for that woman anymore than I should have to pay for you hitting a tree without a helmet.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Rand's novels are fine, it's her ideas that don't hold up to serious scrutiny. They really appeal to the ego of college-age kids who always of course picture themselves being the Roarks or Galts of this world. Most people I know got past it once they got a little more experience and thought about things a bit more.

[newcarver]

Most insurance is expensive. Has high deductables. Can drop you if you get sick. Raise your deductables for no reason. Something needed to be done. I don't know if the bill is going address any of the real problems? I have worked for the Govt and got free insurance for myself. It was more expensive to put my family on the plan than to buy it individually. Later on, I and my wife became self employed. Wife was pregenant and the insurance companies would not even talk to us. Had to pay out of pocket and then I had to have surgery and had to pay out of pocket. This happened 5 yrs ago and I'm still paying for the surgery. This was an outpatient surgery. If I had to have a overnight stay I would be in the poorhouse. Point is the system is flawed and something needed to be done. Not saying they are doing it the right way, but at least they are trying. Too bad the insurance industry had such pull in matters as it will probably just cost the citizen in the long run. Oh yeah, forgot to mention that most insurance will only pay up to 80% of any major proceedure. This can still land you in bankrupcy for any big problem.

[bobdea]

that's actually a big secret. the only people that know are insurance companies who won't give up their numbers which indicates that it's higher than they want you to know.

the only available numbers are from CA, they indicate about 21%

pasted from:

http://www.calnurses.org/media-center/press-releases/2009/september/california-s-real-death-panels-insurers-deny-21-of-claims.html

For Immediate Release

September 2, 2009

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California's Real Death Panels: Insurers Deny 21% of Claims

PacifiCare's Denials 40%, Cigna’s 33% in First Half of 2009

More than one of every five requests for medical claims for insured patients, even when recommended by a patient's physician, are rejected by California's largest private insurers, amounting to very real death panels in practice daily in the nation's biggest state, according to data released Wednesday by the California Nurses Association/National Nurses Organizing Committee.

CNA/NNOC researchers analyzed data reported by the insurers to the California Department of Managed Care. From 2002 through June 30, 2009, six of the largest insurers operating in California rejected 47.7 million claims for care -- 22 percent of all claims.

The data will be presented by Don DeMoro, director of CNA/NNOC's research arm, the Institute for Health and Socio-Economic Policy, at CNA/NNOC's biennial convention next Tuesday, Sept. 8 in San Francisco. The convention will also feature a panel presentation from nurse leaders in Canada, Great Britain, and Australia exploding the myths about their national healthcare systems.

"With all the dishonest claims made by some politicians about alleged 'death panels' in proposed national legislation, the reality for patients today is a daily, cold-hearted rejection of desperately needed medical care by the nation's biggest and wealthiest insurance companies simply because they don't want to pay for it," said Deborah Burger, RN, CNA/NNOC co-president.

For the first half of 2009, as the national debate over healthcare reform was escalating, the rejection rates are even more striking.

Claims denial rates by leading California insurers, first six months of 2009:

PacifiCare -- 39.6 percent

Cigna -- 32.7 percent

HealthNet -- 30 percent

Kaiser Permanente -- 28.3 percent

Blue Cross -- 27.9 percent

Aetna -- 6.4 percent

"Every claim that is denied represents a real patient enduring pain and suffering. Every denial has real, sometimes fatal consequences," said Burger.

PacifiCare, for example, denied a special procedure for treatment of bone cancer for Nick Colombo, a 17-year-old teen from Placentia, Calif. Again, after protests organized by Nick's family and friends, CNA/NNOC, and netroots activists, PacifiCare reversed its decision. But like Nataline Sarkisyan, the delay resulted in critical time lost, and Nick ultimately died. "This was his last effort and the procedure had worked before with people in Nick's situation," said his older brother Ricky.

Cigna gained notoriety two years ago for denying a liver transplant to 17-year-old Nataline Sarkisyan of Northridge, Calif. and then reversing itself, tragically too late to save her life.

In 2008, six days before RN Kim Kutcher of Dana Point, Calif., was scheduled to have special back surgery, Blue Cross denied authorization for the procedure as "investigational" even though the lumbar artificial disc she was to receive had FDA approval. At the time of denial, which she calls "insurance hell," Kutcher had "already gone through pre-op testing, donated a unit of blood, had appointments with four physicians." Kutcher paid $60,000 out of pocket for the operation and is still fighting Blue Cross.

Rejection of care is a very lucrative business for the insurance giants. The top 18 insurance giants racked up $15.9 billion in profits last year.

"The routine denial of care by private insurers is like the elephant in the room no one in the present national healthcare debate seems to want to talk about," Burger said. "Nothing in any of the major bills advancing in the Senate or House or proposed by the administration would challenge this practice."

“The United States remains the only country in the industrialized world where human lives are sacrificed for private profit, a national disgrace that seems on the verge of perpetuation," she said.

CNA/NNOC supports an alternative approach, expanding Medicare to cover all Americans, which would give the U.S. a national system similar to what exists in other nations. Data released in late August by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, which tracks developed nations, found that among 30 industrial nations, the U.S. ranks last in life expectancy at birth for men, and 24th for women.

[Dr D]

Insurance may make you slightly more responsible,in the eyes of those who can afford it(definitely your own) but it does not prevent the possiblity of losing that which really matters.

There are no absolutes in life Steve. We can't mitigate every risk. Personally I don't have a problem with a safety net approach to the problem. medicaid is already in place. There are a few that slip thru the cracks that should be addressed. I don't make enough to afford health insurance for instance. yet this new plan says that I should pay for yours. How is that an appropriate answer? I mitigate the risks by living a wellness based lifestyle. I choose to board since the exercise is very good for me. I have a good life insurance policy for about 125$ a year so my family is covered if I smoke a tree. I leave the mtn when the moron to groomer ratio gets to high. I make concious decisions about risk every run down the mtn. I choose to be responsible for myself. In most cases there is insurance to cover me. I will not likely get any degenerative or lifestyle diseases. If I need medical intervention it will be for trauma most likely in a vehicle and the vehicle insurance will cover me. snowboarding and other recreation is my only real uninsured risk. I choose to accept that risk. If I gamble and lose its on me. Thats the way our constitution was written.

[Dr D]

Most insurance is expensive. Has high deductables. Can drop you if you get sick. Raise your deductables for no reason. Something needed to be done. I don't know if the bill is going address any of the real problems? I have worked for the Govt and got free insurance for myself. It was more expensive to put my family on the plan than to buy it individually. Later on, I and my wife became self employed. Wife was pregenant and the insurance companies would not even talk to us. Had to pay out of pocket and then I had to have surgery and had to pay out of pocket. This happened 5 yrs ago and I'm still paying for the surgery. This was an outpatient surgery. If I had to have a overnight stay I would be in the poorhouse. Point is the system is flawed and something needed to be done. Not saying they are doing it the right way, but at least they are trying. Too bad the insurance industry had such pull in matters as it will probably just cost the citizen in the long run. Oh yeah, forgot to mention that most insurance will only pay up to 80% of any major proceedure. This can still land you in bankrupcy for any big problem.

The best answer under our current system is a high deductable catastrophic policy combined with a health savings acct. 10k deductable is relatively cheap and anything above that is 100% covered. if you put even a small amount in savings for yourself in a tax free medical savings plan you whittle down the 10k and its pretax dollars.

The insurance industry needs reworked for sure and denials are a big part of the problem.

[Dr D]

Rand's novels are fine, it's her ideas that don't hold up to serious scrutiny. They really appeal to the ego of college-age kids who always of course picture themselves being the Roarks or Galts of this world. Most people I know got past it once they got a little more experience and thought about things a bit more.

We are very close to finding out if they stand up to scrutiny since being a producer in this country is rapidly becoming a nonstarter. If I had it to do again I would be thinking twice about investing 10 years and 200k in my education since I make about what I did when I drove a truck for fedex.

[Aisling]

someone said in a lame argument that you can't talk to conservatives because the Billybobs are so afraid they will have their guns taken away (paraphrased)

really? that's like saying you can't converse with a liberal because their bleeding hearts are hemorrhaging from trying to save the baby whales while killing fetuses in humans.

let's have constructive talks here instead of stupid "you're this!" "you're that!"

playground mentality.

before anyone harps on the abortion topic, i believe in equal opportunity death... death penalty, abortion rights, and end to life rights.

aaaand back to healthcare!

People wonder why other people don't trust the government... by their own statements, Medicare and Medicaid are awash in fraud, waste and abuse.... so we should trust them with this new shiny idea? Yeah... sure...

I agree there are several problems with healthcare in the United States but this is overreaching. I repeat my earlier statement that if you do something it should be done correctly and carefully. This was done neither way.

Obama himself said on his campaign trail that mandating healthcare was wrong because 20% of people can't afford it and cannot afford the penalties for not having it (in argument with Hillary Clinton's ideas) and yet this idea was just signed into law. He was, I believe referring to Romneycare (see both dems and repubs can be equally stupid!) in MA which is a financial disaster.

It already, in its infancy is being abused... I saw it with my own eyes as a woman came into our ob-gyn office, dripping in diamonds and high end clothing, and handed me her MassHealth card.

[Alaskan Rover]

I see quickly that the bickering in this thread mirrors the bickering that has been going on in Congress about healthcare.

I think if Congress would have used a bit pragmatism and logic on BOTH sides, healthcare would not have become such a pivotal and volatile issue.

It seems to me that our present healthcare system has become a juggernaught that rolls over all logic like a great big boulder...and the people that get squashed are the people in the middle...that just want to live, not to take advantage, nor to snipe on others whom they think take advantage, but people that simply want to have "affordable" healthcare.

Case in point: last spring I received a fairly deep laceration on my lip when I stupidly pulled on an extension cord too hard that snapped back like a viper and it's plug hit me right in the face. Certainly not a life-threatening injury...but a laceration that needed sutures. It was the weekend, and the doctor's office was closed, so I went to the emergency room. After waiting for 2 hours, I was finally seen by the triage nurse, who swabbed and put a squirt of neosporin on the laceration and then a small bandage and told me to wait again in the waiting room, and a doctor will come out promptly. Three hours later and still no doctor, I decided this is ridiculous and left. Being an offshore sailor, I had a full medical kit handy and gave myself a low-concentrate local anesthetic shot of tetracaine and sutured my lip myself using a mirror. It worked well, and I thought that was the end of it.

I was astounded a couple weeks later when I got a bill for $60 that was unpaid by my insurance. I found out that the hospital had billed my insurance company $335 for basically waiting in the waiting room for 5 hours and a bandage and a little bit of neosporin. The insurance paid $275 of this robbery! I was seen by NO doctor and had NO procedure done, and the hospital STILL overcharged for the visit, as if a procedure HAD been done!

That is the state of our health care system today. If I had NO insurance, the total cost for the aborted emergency "waiting room" visit would have been $15 for supplies and $30 for the few minutes of triage nurse and admitting clerk use. Total. But since I had a "gold-plan" insurance plan, my insurance company (Regence) was billed $335 !!!! Is that logical??

So, it is not JUST the insurance companies that are at fault here....it is also the hospitals; the malpractice tort lawyers; the pharmacutical companies that overcharge for proprietary drugs when generic drugs will suffice; the super high cost of medical school that doctors need to make up for (I know doctors that are STILL paying off $350,000 worth of medical school bills!); the high cost of running a tech-intensive hospital (the average anesthesiologic NURSE makes $189,000...saw THAT on Yahoo News the other day)...All these healthcare costs add up to one big cluster %@#&. Not a "healthcare" industry...but a "sickcare" industry.

A pragmatist would derive that our present system has become capsized by costs, but that NO ONE particular segment is 100% at fault...it is a collective of faults.

A pragmatist would ALSO derive that the health of a populace should really be the ultimate responsibility of each individual person or family...and the most intelligent thing that we can do is take care of our bodies, our minds and our heart and soul as if they were a shrine. Eat healthy meals instead of Doritos and Pepsi...get off that damn chair or couch and do something active and physical...your body will thank you...and REALIZE that YOU are the one that is ultimately responsible for your health. If you hand over your health to some juggernaught of an industry, you will get exactly what you deserve...to be treated like a number.

Remember that you are NOT a number, and take responsibility for your OWN health. Be PROACTIVE to your health. Your body will thank you for it.

Those are my two cents, anyway.

[RideGuy]

Yeah, because Canada got it right.

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Jack, please tell me you don't believe this bull****.

[BobD]

People wonder why other people don't trust the government... by their own statements, Medicare and Medicaid are awash in fraud, waste and abuse.... so we should trust them with this new shiny idea? Yeah... sure...

It isn't a wash with fraud, but there certainly is some. The frauds are carried out by businesses, not the government. Good argument for not trusting businesses with health care either.

[Helmut Karvlow]

right now I'm not happy it passed, but I'm still reading through the damn thing trying to figure it out if it will help or hurt my Company.

[heroshmero]

People wonder why other people don't trust the government... by their own statements, Medicare and Medicaid are awash in fraud, waste and abuse....

This simply isn't the case. That is being used as a talking point by the right wing.

I work in the Medicaid billing field and there is a huge amount done to defeat fraud.

And, on top of that, Medicaid and Medicare operate with something like a 3% margin for administration costs. For profit medical insurance companies operate with something like a 20% margin for administrative costs.

I'm not saying that Medicaid and Medicare are perfect but they are, by far, making better use of your money than a private, for profit insurance company is.

A pragmatist would derive that our present system has become capsized by costs, but that NO ONE particular segment is 100% at fault...it is a collective of faults.

Most of the responsibility for the excessive cost is a result of the insurance company.

Health care providers overcharge in order to make up for the additional overhead required to deal with for profit insurance companies. Insurance companies routinely deny claims or refuse full payment. The health care provider often has to re-bill in order to "jump through the hoops" that insurance companies set up. The health care provider also overcharges because they know that the insurance company will not pay in full.

Insurance companies are a cancer in the US health care system. Their lobby is powerful and they have a distinct incentive to make a profit, make it as difficult as possible to submit claims, and deny as many claims as possible. They are largely responsible for the high cost of health care in the US.

[bobdea]

Atlas shrugged is a philosophy Bob. If the novel didn't quite stimulate you try reading her epistimolgy. Same stuff but really dry. "The virtue of selfishness" is a great ,if somewhat inflammatory, read. Ayn Rand is very relevant to this discussion because of where whe came from. She escaped out of Communist russia. We would do well to head her warnings.

so did Vlad Putin and yakov smirnov, what's your point?

atlas shrugged is a propped up version of justifying the childish selfishness of thinking giving to others will rob one's self of individuality.

that piece of **** book basically makes the argument that any type of compassion is useless and working for any kind of common good is bad. be it state run or a private charity or even in your personal life.

It goes so far as to even accidentally contradict the treasured works of Adam Smith that right wingers LOVE to quote but not read.

I love how if I mention Ayn AKA the "narcotic to the upper-middle-class white male of above-average means and intelligence" those exact people jump right in to defend her justification of a sort of impassivity that's usually just a mask for some degree sadism or just the ohh so common rich white guy with a chip on his shoulder that uses it to justify what he wants for himself.

For the record arguing with most Rand worshippers I have encountered is about as reasonable as arguing with a full on red communists and they suppress fact and logic just as much. You might want to consider that objectivism is easily debunked by some fairly obvious social structures that exist outside of any government type structure.

Not to mention her views on sex are some freaky **** that again strokes a selfish/childish person's ego. It amazes me when otherwise sharp people pick such a lightweight of philosophy as their messiah. mein kampf and the bible are still pretty big in some circles too though so I guess I should not be surprised.

[Jack M]

It isn't a wash with fraud, but there certainly is some. The frauds are carried out by businesses, not the government. Good argument for not trusting businesses with health care either.

I would call 60 Billion awash. The frauds are carried out by criminals, not businesses.

CBS 60 Minutes, 10.25.09:

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it is the first story in the episode, and is about 15 minutes long.

[Aisling]

This simply isn't the case. That is being used as a talking point by the right wing.

I work in the Medicaid billing field and there is a huge amount done to defeat fraud.

And, on top of that, Medicaid and Medicare operate with something like a 3% margin for administration costs. For profit medical insurance companies operate with something like a 20% margin for administrative costs.

I'm not saying that Medicaid and Medicare are perfect but they are, by far, making better use of your money than a private, for profit insurance company is.

Most of the responsibility for the excessive cost is a result of the insurance company.

Health care providers overcharge in order to make up for the additional overhead required to deal with for profit insurance companies. Insurance companies routinely deny claims or refuse full payment. The health care provider often has to re-bill in order to "jump through the hoops" that insurance companies set up. The health care provider also overcharges because they know that the insurance company will not pay in full.

Insurance companies are a cancer in the US health care system. Their lobby is powerful and they have a distinct incentive to make a profit, make it as difficult as possible to submit claims, and deny as many claims as possible. They are largely responsible for the high cost of health care in the US.

No, the fraud argument was made by both sides.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/president-obama-announces-new-effort-crack-down-waste-and-fraud

“The fact is, Washington is a place where tax dollars are often treated like Monopoly money, bartered and traded, divvied up among lobbyists and special interests. And it has been a place where waste – even billions of dollars in waste – is accepted as the price of doing business,” said President Obama.

it's probably the only bipartisan argument made.

He also makes a point... Washington is bought by lobbyists. not just insurance companies, but buisnesses, etc... again, another reason not to trust people with power over our healthcare.

I know someone who works in Medicaid and she is against this bill because the money isn't there in the end.

And, to use your point, if Medicaid uses its money so much better than other companies why do we need new legislation?

I think it was Dr D who mentioned this, or maybe someone else... but if we just did a lot of preventative care, the costs of insurance, hospital stays, etc would go down because people would be healthier. Why not work with hospitals to offer preventative care clinics? CVS is beginning to offer nurse visits in the pharmacy to avoid having people to the ER for something simple like a cold or flu. Why not work on these measures?

Why not work on tort reform? why do people pooh-pooh it? oh it will only save this %... so what? it needs to be done anyway.

I cut and pasted from the Bill itself in an earlier post... there are several things that will not make things better, but more of the same. If you're a "high risk" individual on the Govt plan, if money gets low, guess what? your benefits cut, or your neighbors, or you go on a waitlist for your treatment... oh, sound familiar?

I showed a prime example of someone taking full advantage of Free Care whilst obviously able to pay for their care themselves... how is this not an issue?

So I have to say AGAIN.... baby steps. this bill overreaches.

[Petrol]

For the record arguing with most Rand worshippers I have encountered is about as reasonable as arguing with a full on red communists . . . .

what topic would you have to argue with "full-on-red-communists" over?