Health Care Bill

[Petrol]

matters not to those with their hands stuck out saying, "more, more, more"

[MUD]

Sounds like some of you need to get involved in politics!

[bobdea]

matters not to those with their hands stuck out saying, "more, more, more"

petrol, you sound like one of these people <object width="660" height="405"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pilG7PCV448&hl=en_US&fs=1&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pilG7PCV448&hl=en_US&fs=1&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="660" height="405"></embed></object>

[forrest]

I do hate to mix my politics with my recreation but . . . I may as well.

Some info on me. I am self employed in the trades, have a chronic preexisting condition, purchase my own insurance, do not come from money and am not a socialist.

I've watched the news with growing shock and amazement these last several months. Who knew I was being so mistreated and abused by the world at large and the insurance industry in particular. I wish I had known, I could have made so much use of that knowledge when picking up women.

With respect to our amateur Constitutional scholars that chimed in earlier I can only express my dismay, though with scholarship being what it is today I cannot really argue too much with the title, it would be worth your while to explore the difference between positive and negative rights. The founding documents of this country all deal solely with negative rights, things that the government cannot do to you. The health care you are trying to claim is a right would be a positive right, things that the government must do for you, and therefore will not be found in the Constitution. Positive rights almost exclusively result in the tyranny of one group over another. Negative rights generally result in freedom, a concept many of you may be well served in exploring.

There is an opportunity with the passage of this legislation to reinforce the concept that we are not subjects of the federal government but indeed the master of the federal government. Many of us were not big kids when Social Security was enacted or when Medicare was passed, we had no opportunity to protest at the time when it mattered most. We have an obligation if we truly disagree with this legislation to engage in disobedience when provisions come into effect. Cancel your insurance in 2012 or 2014 whenever this takes effect. Do not pay the fines they attempt to impose on you. I will be canceling my insurance when the time comes. I rely on medical care to maintain my health but I will pay out of pocket to my last penny to demonstrate that I do not acquiesce. If it matters to you take the risk and demonstrate your noncompliance and reaffirm that you are not a subject of the state, to quote a fine poem by Dylan Thomas

'Do not go gentle into that good night.

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.'

[Petrol]

Long live social-justice brother!

I welcome you and your Che poster to my totalitarianist empire where happiness always lives!

I can give you all the details once you move in...

But I do assure you that housing, jobs, healthcare, food, water and entertainment will be provided...

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[BobD]

petrol, you sound like one of these people <object width="660" height="405"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pilG7PCV448&hl=en_US&fs=1&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pilG7PCV448&hl=en_US&fs=1&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="660" height="405"></embed></object>

That sums it up

[Dr D]

New Political Party.*

*Not Democrat, Not Republican, Not Independent.*

*It's called the "PISSED OFF PARTY" (or POP).*

*This party is dedicated to vote every incumbent out of office inthe next elections.*

*If you're Democrat, vote Democrat. Just don't vote for the incumbent.*

*If you're Republican, vote Republican. Just don't vote for theincumbent.*

*We need to send a message to all politicians, that we're tired ofteir Bull Butter.*

*If the country votes out all the incumbents, the new incomingpoliticians will get the message..*

*It's pretty simple. Nobody needs to change parties and lets faceit, there's plenty of blame to spread around.*

*A few good politicians will lose their job but they probably havebetter retirement and insurance then 95% of the American public.*

*You've had to struggle for the last 5 years. Some of you have lostyour job and may be working in some other sector just to feed yourfamily.*

*I guarantee you, none of them will suffer like this country has.*

*If you like whats going on and think this is a bad idea, delete this.*

*But if you're fed up and think this is a good idea, then pass thisE-mail on.*

*If you really think this has legs, then a website and a blog couldhelp get the word out.*

*To All 535 voting members of the Legislature; it is now officialyou are ALL corrupt morons:*

*a).. The U.S. Postal Service was established in 1775. You have had234 years to get it right and it is broke.*

*b).. Social Security was established in 1935. You have had 74 yearsto get i t right and it is broke.*

*c).. Fannie Mae was established in 1938. You have had 71 years toget it right and it is broke.*

*d).. War on Poverty started in 1964. You have had 45 years to getit right; $1 trillion of our money is confiscated each year and transferred to "the poor" and they only want more.*

*e).. Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965. You have had44 years to get it right and they are broke.*

*f).. Freddie Mac was established in 1970. You have had 39 years toget it right and it is broke.*

*g).. The Department of Energy was created in 1977 to lessen ourdependence on foreign oil. It has ballooned to 16,000 employeeswith a budget of $24 billion ayear and we import more oil thanever before. You had 32 years to get it right and it is an abysmalfailure. *

*You have FAILED in every "government service" you have shoved downour throats while overspending our tax dollars.*

*AND YOU WANT AMERICANS TO BELIEVE YOU CAN BE TRUSTED WITH A GOVERNMENT- RUN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM?*

*IT'S NOT ABOUT THE NEED FOR GOOD HEALTH CARE, IT'S ABOUT TRUSTINGTHE GOVERNMENT TO RUN IT!*

[Dr D]

http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/patient-protection-affordable-care-act-as-passed.pdf

I am on pg 87 of 2409:biggthump so far its a lot of misc unrelated crap.

[newcarver]

Fact of the matter is, Fed Govt is too big to be efficient. It is too corrupt from outside influences, special interest, and conflicts of interest from within. There is no way for it to run smooth and do what it is supposed to do correctly. Don't know what the solution is? Getting rid of lobbying is a start. Getting rid of corporate influence via campain funding is another way. It doesn't matter who you elect, as they will all have someone trying to line their pockets with $'s to sway their decisions to help their particular cause or industry. It has always been that way, but just has got worse over the course of our country's history.

[newcarver]

Here is a big part of the problem. Look how much our lawmakers are worth. They have no clue what reality is for the general public. They are all part of the privelaged few. http://www.opensecrets.org/pfds/overview.php?type=W&year=2007&filter=H&sort=D

Until real people are elected into office, we have no chance. The wealthy are making sure that they stay that way and the general populace gets the shaft.

The Red/Blue State, partisan politics is all a ploy to keep the people divided and keep us from knowing the trueth. We bicker amoungst ourselves while they keep getting richer.

[newcarver]

Student loan overhaul was included in this new bill. Sounds like a good thing at least.

Student Loan Package Passed in Congress

As part of the healthcare package, lawmakers have approved an overhaul of the college student loan program, ending federal subsidies to private lenders. The measure ends the forty-five-year-old Federal Family Education Loan Program, which has supported private student lending with federal subsidies. The projected $61 billion in savings over ten years would be used to provide federal grants to needy students and help fund other federal education programs, such as support for community colleges and historically black schools.

Wish it was retro-active

[lonbordin]

No, I'm not saying "high risk", I'm saying people who live gratuitously self-destructive lifestyles - smokers, heavy drinkers, addictive drug users, obese, etc. That has nothing to do with race.

People who ski/snowboard without helmets? People who ride motorcycles without helmets? People who drive cars without seat belts? People who can't swim that go near the water? (Oh f*^k I could go on for days...)

That line is going to be awfully hard to draw.

[BobD]

Student loan overhaul was included in this new bill. Sounds like a good thing at least.

Student Loan Package Passed in Congress

As part of the healthcare package, lawmakers have approved an overhaul of the college student loan program, ending federal subsidies to private lenders. The measure ends the forty-five-year-old Federal Family Education Loan Program, which has supported private student lending with federal subsidies. The projected $61 billion in savings over ten years would be used to provide federal grants to needy students and help fund other federal education programs, such as support for community colleges and historically black schools.

Wish it was retro-active

This was one of the things the GOP was up in arms about. Guess their banker sponsors were upset.

[Alaskan Rover]

I said it once, I will say it again:

"Profit is not evil, only its offspring: Greed. It is indeed the individual's right to embrace greed over altruism...likewise, however, it is society's right to seek redress when such embrace threatens the very makeup of society."<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

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Yeah, I know...that's pretty self-serving to begin quoting myself...but there is a reason. I just had an idea:

The 'right' thinks they are seeking redress with the tea-party movement ...and the grandstanding in Congress, against what they see as a liberal bias in the government.

The 'left' thinks they, in turn, are seeking redress against an overzealous, profit-oriented juggernaut of a health-care system...and perhaps corporate ethos in general.

Maybe both sides will meet head-on like two opposite hadrons (say a proton and an antiproton) and annihilate each other....and then we can start the whole shibang over from scratch with a fresh chalkboard (or collider, as it were).

Of course, that is a gross oversimplification, as BOTH protons and antiprotons are wholly unstable.....but maybe NOT quite as unstable as the two present political parties.

What the heck does that make the tea-party?? Mesons?

Gravity IS Life.

[boarderboy]

Of course, that is a gross oversimplification, as BOTH protons and antiprotons are wholly unstable.....but maybe NOT quite as unstable as the two present political parties.

What the heck does that make the tea-party?? Mesons?

They're 'free radicals', of course. Very bad stuff! They're the reason I have to take so many antioxidants...

BB

[Alaskan Rover]

They're 'free radicals', of course. Very bad stuff! They're the reason I have to take so many antioxidants...

BB

Ha ha.....good one! :lol: That cracked me up! I love it.

[KingCrimson]

I said it once, I will say it again:

"Profit is not evil, only its offspring: Greed. It is indeed the individual's right to embrace greed over altruism...likewise, however, it is society's right to seek redress when such embrace threatens the very makeup of society."<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

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Why is greed the offspring of profit?

I'm not hungry because there's food..

[Alaskan Rover]

Why is greed the offspring of profit?

I'm not hungry because there's food..

Actually, experiments have shown that in mammals, including humans, the mere presence of certain foods initiates the "drooling" response or "salivatory response" - the body's way of preparing for the ingress of food and its tentative digestion. Now, that doesn't necessarily equate principally to 'hunger'...but some have termed it part of the 'hunger response'. Sometimes even the mere aroma of certain favorite foods will set off this 'salivating response', even if one is indeed quite well satiated.

Now, profit does not ALWAYS give birth to greed. There are no such absolutes. However, like the aforementioned salivatory response, perhaps the mere 'aroma' of profit can initiate the 'greed response' in SOME people...greed being the desire to obtain more and more profit, as a wild dog continues to gorge on meat WELL AFTER he is satiated.

[Jack M]

"Profit is not evil, only its offspring: Greed. It is indeed the individual's right to embrace greed over altruism.

"Among the many other questions raised by the nebulous concept of ‘greed' is why it is a term applied almost exclusively to those who want to earn more money or keep what they have already earned – never to those wanting to take other people's money in taxes or to those wishing to live on the largess dispensed from such taxation." — Thomas Sowell

Many forms of greed are good. http://www.skurfer.com/politics/#greed

[Petrol]

"Among the many other questions raised by the nebulous concept of ‘greed' is why it is a term applied almost exclusively to those who want to earn more money or keep what they have already earned – never to those wanting to take other people's money in taxes or to those wishing to live on the largess dispensed from such taxation." — Thomas Sowell

Hear, Hear!

Well said Thom

[Petrol]

Student loan overhaul was included in this new bill. Sounds like a good thing at least.

Student Loan Package Passed in Congress

As part of the healthcare package, lawmakers have approved an overhaul of the college student loan program, ending federal subsidies to private lenders. The measure ends the forty-five-year-old Federal Family Education Loan Program, which has supported private student lending with federal subsidies. The projected $61 billion in savings over ten years would be used to provide federal grants to needy students and help fund other federal education programs, such as support for community colleges and historically black schools.

Wish it was retro-active

Sure!

Why not have burden the fed with every more power & control to dictate a quota based, tax-payer funded student loan program that rewards biased schools of 'higher-education' with plenty o cash at the expense of moderate schools while downright penalizing schools that dare have alternate political personalities . . .

and what say we cut you a check to cover your past expenses today?

sounds great

[Alaskan Rover]

As quoted by Jack Michaud:

Originally Posted by Alaskan Rover

"Profit is not evil, only its offspring: Greed. It is indeed the individual's right to embrace greed over altruism."

:nono: Jack, you craftily left out the most important part of the qoute. Sneaky, sneaky.

What I originally said was:

"Profit is not evil, only its offspring: Greed. It is indeed the individual's right to embrace greed over altruism...likewise, however, it is society's right to seek redress when such embrace threatens the very makeup of society."

The addition of the latter part puts what I was saying in a different context.

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[Alaskan Rover]

Sure!

Why not have burden the fed with every more power & control to dictate a quota based, tax-payer funded student loan program that rewards biased schools of 'higher-education' with plenty o cash at the expense of moderate schools while downright penalizing schools that dare have alternate political personalities . . .

and what say we cut you a check to cover your past expenses today?

sounds great

One would have to ask, Petrol, by which schools do you speak of that have 'alternate political personalities'? Berkely, as an example, could be thought of by some to have a rather 'liberal' political personality...and yet they don't seem penalized. Others, such as Duke, have a MUCH more conservative general outlook, but I don't really see them being penalized either...and they are about as opposite, politically, from Berkely, as one can get. By which side of the median do you speak when you ascribe "alternate"? Jes wunderin'.

And on that same token..how do you define a school that is "biased" and why juxtapose that with "moderate"? Moderate in what way?

I'm just a little confused.

[bobdea]

One would have to ask, Petrol, by which schools do you speak of that have 'alternate political personalities'? Berkely, as an example, could be thought of by some to have a rather 'liberal' political personality...and yet they don't seem penalized. Others, such as Duke, have a MUCH more conservative general outlook, but I don't really see them being penalized either...and they are about as opposite, politically, from Berkely, as one can get. By which side of the median do you speak when you ascribe "alternate"? Jes wunderin'.

And on that same token..how do you define a school that is "biased" and why juxtapose that with "moderate"? Moderate in what way?

I'm just a little confused.

he probably means bob jones university or the lesser and also unaccredited schools, you know, the ones the crazy right wingers start. basically religious right programming centers. the wild alaskan dingbat has made comments about the guidlines for student loans and being accredited being to tight as well. basically, it's a running theme with republicans that they want to funnel federal money directly into megachruches by the use of a front they try to call a school.

[bobdea]

BTW, the wild alaskan dingbat is sarah palin for those that missed it.