Health Care Bill

[Neil Gendzwill]

Not an attack on Canada but a personal story.

My Grandmother lived most of her last 20 years or so in canada. She went to the doctor with abdominal pain. She was given a basic exam and some meds. She returned three more times with increasing pain and was told she needed some imagry but there was a 6 week wait. My aunt who lives just across the border in the US and is a nurse brought here across the border to an american ER she was given the CT scan she needed and was immediately diagnosed with appendicitis. It burst on her way to emergency surgery nearly killing her. she went downhill into dementia very shortly after and was over a year recovering her bodily health. her mental condition never improved before her death.

So you can see my concern for all of us being FORCED to participate in such a "beloved" system

That's not my experience at all. Abdominal pain presented in the ER here merits an immediate admittance and they take it very seriously. There is no waiting list for that sort of emergency requirement. There must be more to that story.

[MUD]

Not an attack on Canada but a personal story.

My Grandmother lived most of her last 20 years or so in canada. She went to the doctor with abdominal pain. She was given a basic exam and some meds. She returned three more times with increasing pain and was told she needed some imagry but there was a 6 week wait. My aunt who lives just across the border in the US and is a nurse brought here across the border to an american ER she was given the CT scan she needed and was immediately diagnosed with appendicitis. It burst on her way to emergency surgery nearly killing her. she went downhill into dementia very shortly after and was over a year recovering her bodily health. her mental condition never improved before her death.

So you can see my concern for all of us being FORCED to participate in such a "beloved" system

Forgive me if this sounds cold.....

So they fixed her appendicitis so that she could live to become demented? Requiring long term (expensive) care the rest of her life?

Maybe the Canadians saw this coming and put her on the slow list.

[Petrol]

What can you do for the people in need? It is too expensive for most to afford any serious medical proceedures/care. Almost everyone will get sick or hurt serously at some point. Insurance is unaffordable/unobtainable for anyone who has a pre-existing condition or is up in age. Have to have some way to cover that sort of thing. We could just send the sick and elderly on an iceburg to float off and die. If insurance was a viable option, that would be better. But it is out of the financial grasp of many in this country. That is a fact! It would also raise premiums for everyone else. Something has to be done to make health care affordable for all.

Petrol, do you work for the health insurance industry? You attacked my original post which was basically against the new bill saying that it will just make more profit for them. Then when I post things that are pro bill you attack them too. Maybe you should go snowboarding more? I'm going tomorrow!

1. there was no "attack", I was simply pointing out what I think obvious. this 'health-care' bill is Not a boon but will instead be the ruination of the healthcare insurance industry... in relitively short order.

2. of-course the cost of serious medical proceedures/care is beyond the sffordability range of the vast majority of folks. that is Exactly what Insurance was/is designed to cover... catostophic health needs, not health maintenance as it is now being used which is driving costs ever higher. (thus the referance to auto insurance & auto maintenance earlier)

3. sending the sick/eldery off on an iceberg to die... hmmm, does that mean you don't believe in global warming, or just that you have faith the it is now being reversed/) Nope, under obama-care, we won't be sending the sick/eldery off on no icebergs to float off & die, we'll instead be sending them home witha few pain-pills to die. (beings that budget constrainst will require us to focus scares 'resourse' on those likely to lead more productive lives that will benifit the 'collective'

4. I already pointed out a few tweaks that will more then 'fix' the major problems with costs as have many others.

5. yes I should go snowboarding, but my dang boots are broke and the 'collective' has yet to send me a new pair... would you prefer to make a donation or shall I have it Taxed from you :lol:

[C5 Golfer]

Yes, there is: having you neighbor being forced to pay for it...

Are you saying in the USA we should not help anyone -- take care of just yourself when it come to high medical bills?

[KingCrimson]

Forgive me if this sounds cold.....

So they fixed her appendicitis so that she could live to become demented? Requiring long term (expensive) care the rest of her life?

Maybe the Canadians saw this coming and put her on the slow list.

Is your colander adjusted correctly?

The strap should follow the jawline, and your earlobes should be inserted THROUGH the handles.

;)

[trailertrash]

Not an attack on Canada but a personal story.

My Grandmother lived most of her last 20 years or so in canada. She went to the doctor with abdominal pain. She was given a basic exam and some meds. She returned three more times with increasing pain and was told she needed some imagry but there was a 6 week wait. My aunt who lives just across the border in the US and is a nurse brought here across the border to an american ER she was given the CT scan she needed and was immediately diagnosed with appendicitis. It burst on her way to emergency surgery nearly killing her. she went downhill into dementia very shortly after and was over a year recovering her bodily health. her mental condition never improved before her death.

So you can see my concern for all of us being FORCED to participate in such a "beloved" system

Because mistakes never happen here? Oh right they do. This story would hold some water if there weren't comparable stories from here. As it is it is about as useful as Jack's story.

[MUD]

Is your colander adjusted correctly?

The strap should follow the jawline, and your earlobes should be inserted THROUGH the handles.

;)

:lol:

Some in our medical community believe that Canada has built in a system that has increased delays to stop high expense procedures on individuals that are terminal.....

We will fix you no matter what the cost or the long term outcome if you desire.

[KingCrimson]

Sounds like some kinda dystopian story forced Hospice! :lol:

You'd need a hugely convoluted system of risk assessment.. Someone would have to determine if it was more expensive to hire a team of risk management folk or just pay up for the percent of people that would be deemed a bad investment. Funny, if you keep going with that concept, you would probably end up insuring only people within a certain income tax bracket, at which point you'd be much better served to just have a private insurance market. Interesting..

As the new laws stand right now,(using the tool posted by someone earlier) if I assume I'm going to be making a fair amount of money and insured by my employer there will be NO effect on me. I like that.

A story..

I have a 90 year old great grandmother. I first met her when she was 84 or so...Using a shovel to shape and dig furrows in the backyard of her Tisdale, SK home.

She was in the hospital a few months ago because she fell and broke a hip. She's slightly crazy too, she kept getting in trouble for cleaning up her hospital room. At age 90, slightly crazy, broken hip she seems like an ideal patient to NOT give a bed, let alone a room.

All these commie dystopian horror theories I hear about healthcare seem to be very hard to demonstrate through anything other than anecdotal evidence.

If somehow you could statistically indicate that any country's socialized healthcare system was delaying terminal patients to save money, I'd be extremely shocked.

[Dr D]

Forgive me if this sounds cold.....

So they fixed her appendicitis so that she could live to become demented? Requiring long term (expensive) care the rest of her life?

Maybe the Canadians saw this coming and put her on the slow list.

The emergency surgery and the sepsis caused her health both physically and mentally to degenerate. If it had been caught in time it likely would have ended differently. She was vibrant and healthy and living alone prior to this. Yes that is cold and is one of the attitudes we are concerned about being a part of this bill.

There is no more to the story. she was denied a CT scan due to shortage of timeslots of personel to run it. Either way the Social medicine thing didnt work. We have many women from canada that cross the border to use our birthing services here in MT as well. I can only assume its because the care is better. Its worth investigating for sure.

[bobdea]

:lol:

Some in our medical community believe that Canada has built in a system that has increased delays to stop high expense procedures on individuals that are terminal.....

We will fix you no matter what the cost or the long term outcome if you desire.

yes, in the US you got it good if you have insurance and access, then make it through the insurance company's death panel.

[Jack M]

Because mistakes never happen here? Oh right they do. This story would hold some water if there weren't comparable stories from here. As it is it is about as useful as Jack's story.

Sure, a story or two is anecdotal, but the fact that there is an industry in Canada of brokers who will connect you with US doctors when you can't get service in Canada in time, is useful.

http://www.timelymedical.ca/

[MUD]

I voted, I am HAPPY!

I have read the things posted here and made a decision based upon how you reacted and the information posted as so.

I am not happy or unhappy with the bill, it effects me VERY little. It does however CHANGE things. This bill will be a catalyst by which hopefully we can get a better system. It may take a few regimes, but I feel we will be better in the long run.

This just proves that you can no longer get any information to make an educated decision. You can, however, find it with what ever slant you want and make your "decision" accordingly.

[ZetaTre]

Are you saying in the USA we should not help anyone -- take care of just yourself when it come to high medical bills?

I have never said that. The issue is not about helping each other, the issue is FORCING me to help someone and making me thing that in thinking I am morally obligated to do so. To add shame to that, the government is now FORCING me to purchase a service... God or bad that is, is still coercing me in buying something.

I have a HUGE problem with the new logic perpetrated by "the lady in red" and her team: they have masturbated the right to pursue happiness to the point of making it mean that people have the right to be kept alive at the expense of others... And they have used their rhetoric so profusely that even Republicans are now convinced that that, indeed, is what the Constitution really mean... I was disgusted by her speech before the vote...

[bobdea]

ITs a philosophy Bob! Its not something you embrace in its entirety. Philosophy is an intensely personal thing that everyone has whether they realize it or not. ITs a collection of your experience. I am white and I am a professional but I am new in business at a time that is clearly not the best. my kids are on CHIP/ medicaid and many of the assumptions you make about me are frankly offensive. that said you should understand that philosophy is something developed over time as a collection of things you have been exposed to and thought about with some level of attention. You obviously havent read anything other than the cliff notes or your opinions wouldn't be so shallow and basal in nature. you're spouting someone elses sound bites. The title has the word selfishness in it but the philosophy itself states that we aren't capable of helping others until we recognize the importance of helping ourselves. Personal responsibility. read the book and get back to me:biggthump

I have read the book(shrugged). in high school due to a pain in the ass wing nut english teacher.

it's kind of infantile, some seriously shallow thinking.

[ZetaTre]

Are you saying in the USA we should not help anyone -- take care of just yourself when it come to high medical bills?

Never said that. The issue is not about helping each other, the issue is FORCING me in thinking I am morally obligated to help someone. On top of that the government is now FORCING me to purchase a service.

I have a HUGE problem with the new logic perpetrated by "the lady in red" and her team: they have masturbated the right to pursue happiness to the point of making it mean that people have the right to be kept alive at the expense of others... And they have used their rhetoric so profusely that even Republicans are now convinced that that, indeed, is what the Constitution really mean...

[Dan]

Sure, a story or two is anecdotal, but the fact that there is an industry in Canada of brokers who will connect you with US doctors when you can't get service in Canada in time, is useful.

http://www.timelymedical.ca/

Well, there's also a whole industry in Canada of selling low-cost prescription drugs to Americans who otherwise can't afford them. Not to mention a whole industry in Mexico of providing medical care to Americans who can't afford care here.

Existence of arbitrage opportunities in and of itself doesn't necessarily mean that the system is broken. (Ours, Canada's, or Mexico's.)

It may be true that care is rationed to some extent in Canada (any Canadians want to chime in on this?), but it's not clear to me that we're going to have the same issues in the US as a result of healthcare reform. Private practitioners will still be able to operate, won't they?

[Jack M]

Nobody has been able to answer my original and main beef with this whole thing - why anybody else should be forced to pay for the healthcare of a smoker or someone who leads a slovenly or gratuitously self-destructive lifestyle like the woman in that picture. Sure, most of us indulge in unhealthy treats/libations/recreation in moderation, but there has to be a line in the sand somewhere.

Well, it's law now, and really I do hope it works. I would rather spend money on healthcare here than rebuilding nations in the middle east. I'm just not optimistic that the US gov't can pull it off. And I'll be surprised if they have the balls to deny or penalize smokers, etc. I hope they do.

[Dan]

Nobody has been able to answer my original and main beef with this whole thing - why anybody else should be forced to pay for the healthcare of a smoker or someone who leads a slovenly or gratuitously self-destructive lifestyle like the woman in that picture. Sure, most of us indulge in unhealthy treats/libations/recreation in moderation, but there has to be a line in the sand somewhere.

I think economic incentives are a great way to help people help themselves: I say charge overweight people, smokers, and excessive drinkers more for their insurance! Private insurers are just starting to try this out -- seems like a good idea to me.

I would rather spend money on healthcare here than rebuilding nations in the middle east.

Amen! Apparently the tab for our Middle East adventures is running close to $1 trillion (depending whose figures you believe, of course). That would have bought a lot of healthcare, or you know, built a lot of bridges or staffed a lot of schools, if those were national priorities.

[Jack M]

I say charge overweight people, smokers, and excessive drinkers more for their insurance!

I agree, but the too far left hand-wringing bed-wetters will say oh but what if they can't afford it? Well, not my problem I say.

Private insurers are just starting to try this out

Huh? I thought they always did this. Different people pay different premiums. Isn't this what actuaries are for?

Amen! Apparently the tab for our Middle East adventures is running close to $1 trillion (depending whose figures you believe, of course). That would have bought a lot of healthcare

Isn't the tab for this bill projected at 10 trillion though? ugh.

[newcarver]

5. yes I should go snowboarding, but my dang boots are broke and the 'collective' has yet to send me a new pair... would you prefer to make a donation or shall I have it Taxed from you :lol:

Sounds like you don't like any public funded programs. Hope you don't drive, use a library, have kids in public school, fire/police department, US. Military, etc. These are all tax dollar funded things that you probably use or need on a regular basis. Guess you could join the Freemen and not pay taxes anymore. You would also loose all those public funded services/systems that you get the honor to use.

[bobdea]

I agree, but the too far left hand-wringing bed-wetters will say oh but what if they can't afford it? Well, not my problem I say.

Huh? I thought they always did this. Different people pay different premiums. Isn't this what actuaries are for?

Isn't the tab for this bill projected at 10 trillion though? ugh.

1st point actually implementing that would be hard to do even though it should not be. deciding who's high risk can be a pain. then you'd have to get into race and sex and even religion and ethnicity.

2nd, yes you're right.

3 from some site since the embed of a counter I wanted to insert did not work Spent & Approved War-Spending - About $900 billion of US taxpayers' funds spent or approved for spending through Sept 2010.

U.S. 2009 Monthly Spending in Iraq - $7.3 billion as of Oct 2009

U.S. 2008 Monthly Spending in Iraq - $12 billion

U.S. Spending per Second - $5,000 in 2008 (per Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid on May 5, 2008)

will post numbers of the health bill when I find something solid

[Steve Prokopiw]

Well, there's also a whole industry in Canada of selling low-cost prescription drugs to Americans who otherwise can't afford them. Not to mention a whole industry in Mexico of providing medical care to Americans who can't afford care here.

Existence of arbitrage opportunities in and of itself doesn't necessarily mean that the system is broken. (Ours, Canada's, or Mexico's.)

It may be true that care is rationed to some extent in Canada (any Canadians want to chime in on this?), but it's not clear to me that we're going to have the same issues in the US as a result of health care reform. Private practitioners will still be able to operate, won't they?

My Canadian wife has, unfortunately,seen a lot of cancer in her large family, who all live in Toronto.Their cases have always been treated with the same expediency with which they would have in the States.The difference? None of them were bankrupted by it.All of them have jobs and all pay taxes btw.

I, on the other hand, have several times seen and received some piss poor and incompetent,disrespectful medical treatment in this country,the likes of which the GOP would have you believe only happens in other countries.What our youngest went through unnecessarily as an infant convinced me that bad medical treatment is where you find it,and sometimes that's right here in the good ol' USA.

[Steve Prokopiw]

There's no option for "Hmmm.... we'll see how this actually works out."

I find it a bit perplexing that in one swell foop I will go from being uninsurable (due to a genetic autoimmune disease) to being a criminal if I don't buy insurance.... And since western medicine offers absolutely nothing to treat my illness, I'm wondering how I will afford both the insurance that I will be forced to buy, and the alternative treatments that I use extensively to actually improve my health.

So, I am thrilled that a least this token action has been taken to improve health care access, but not so sure this particular bill is all that useful.

This bill does not offer incentive to be healthy.It is more like a 'bailout' for big pharma and big insurance than a step toward a healthier populace.

[Transistor Rhythm]

is it true that no matter what your medical condition and income level basic insurance is the same price for everyone but is still private and profitable?

I heard you can choose not to participate if jesus tell you not to, is that true?

It always was semi-private and it got even more private a few years back. Now the whole sum is paid by you to the insurance company instead of rerouting tax money. Basic insurance for everyone is about €90 / $120, any extras you pick you pay more. It's also possible to get it cheaper if you pick more 'own risk', it gets even cheaper, about €70 @ €665 own risk. It means you have to pay the first €665 yourself, the rest is free.

I have programmed a health insurance registration form on a website a few months back, so I know about anything that adds up to the calculation, and the price is the same, even for people that are 110 years old. Most of the time kids your kids are insured for free.

Extra's could be:

- More luxurious hospital rooms

- Someone to clean your house and help with other matters every day if you're disabled

- Better dental care

With a basic insurance not everything will be free, you will still end up paying for some medication, everything but very basic dental care and some more things I can't remember right now. Not everything is completely free unless you pay a lot of money every month, but it would be pretty hard to end up with huge medical bills. I never heard of anybody actually.

To tell the truth we're not always too happy about the quality of our basic retirement homes, but it is possible to get a better home if you have more money.

You can refuse treatment if Jesus tells you so, or any other reason you can think of. I'm not sure about letting your children die in the name of Jesus if their life is not sustainable without medical action is legal. I actually think it is.

[Transistor Rhythm]

Not an attack on Canada but a personal story.

My Grandmother lived most of her last 20 years or so in canada. She went to the doctor with abdominal pain. She was given a basic exam and some meds. She returned three more times with increasing pain and was told she needed some imagry but there was a 6 week wait. My aunt who lives just across the border in the US and is a nurse brought here across the border to an american ER she was given the CT scan she needed and was immediately diagnosed with appendicitis. It burst on her way to emergency surgery nearly killing her. she went downhill into dementia very shortly after and was over a year recovering her bodily health. her mental condition never improved before her death.

So you can see my concern for all of us being FORCED to participate in such a "beloved" system

We've had the same problems a few years ago. Learn from it and get it right in one go, but I'm pretty sure reason got lost somewhere in the debate. But it can happen to any public service if you let it slip. In Belgium there is a huge shortage of prison cells.