Soft Bindings For Freecarving

[b0ardski]

The original raichle & nordica snow board boots were existing AT ski boots with lateral flex adjusment and softened/adjustable forward lean/flex. I still use old nordica SBH for spring hiking/touring, vibram sole for traction & crampon compatible.

I still use softer Raichle 124s for resort riding and swap stiff or soft liners depending on snowpack that day, also I'm a firm believer in step-in convenience. This has deterred me (as well as $$) from upgrading to Scarpa TX NTN system for ski to board compatability.

If AT boots were intec compatible I'd be in skibum heaven.

[docrob]

Wow! Am I hearing right?

NTN ski boots will work in hardboot bindings!???!!!!???

This would be nervana! We've been waiting (while salivating substantially) for NTN to get it's issues sorted so we have a boot for Tele', and hopefully (although unlikely) it will work in an AT binding, and with a boot crampon that will cope with the flex. How would snowboard bindings cope with the NTN boot flex?

[Dave ESPI]

Docrob, perhaps I misread what you typed, but did you say you have been snowboarding for only a week? If so I assume you were a skier before and the transition to snowboarding was fairly easy hence your inquiries on this forum about carving and both hard and softboot bindings?

Dano/ others, maybe I didn’t say when I started the thread; but I recognise that hardoots are the business…. spending my savings on Sidewinders and Deeluxe in the euro sales ..to experiment.<O:p></O:p>

…But that setup is maybe a tad ambitious after a weeks snowboarding. I want to plan out the tools to steepen the learning curve in the early stages, since I don’t get much time on snow.<O:p></O:p>

Not passing any judgement, just curious is all

Also if you are wearing your softboots to do other things, you greatly reduce the lonjevity of them in their designed purposes, and stiffness with misuse.

[docrob]

With all the bruising, I lost count of days!

Now I think about it..

3 or 4 half days in New Hampshire Dec 08/09 alternating with ski days to give a break from bruising, 5 half days on the hintertuxer glacier Austria in April 09, 2 more half days in NH last month.

Getting bored with non carved turns.

The chores in softboots are only on boarding days. They are still in great shape. Most boarders seem to beat them up quicker than I do! Also, by the sound of it I'll need to upgrade these inexpensive soft boots for something stiffer. At the prices Bob mentioned they won't be touring the goats, pigs and geese routinely!

[newcarver]

I see Bob's point about the 3rd strap. Unless the highback is locked it would not serve any purpose. No advantage for toe side or heel side. Just an extra strap to get in the way and have to deal with. If locked, it would basically simulate a soft hardboot. Comfy softer hardboots on A/M deck = tons of fun. Probably would work well on a stiff freeride board. I find less discomfort in the feet and ankles with hardboots. Also better edge hold and responsiveness off piste. I still do ride softies in powder though as it gives you a little bit freer lose feeling. Still able to carve well with Deeluxe softboots and cheap but stiff Link Lithium bindings or Head PX 10s on hero snow. My feet and ankles end up sore though. If its not a powder day I'll usually ride my SG Cult with snowpro race bindings and AF700 boots with soft tongue and yellow spring BTS and angles set around 38 28.

[Zone]

Docrob,

Kudos, after a week!

With Dual you should have plenty to grow into and it will hold an edge until you're ready for EC, the board is plenty soft for learning yet great edge hold when pushed.

I had another look at the Flow NXT AT(got mine for $150 new, google it!), and looks like I might do the equivalent of a 3rd strap quite easily. The back moves freely forward and aft but is relatively stiff laterally.

Attaching a 3rd strap equivalent at high boot angles, would not limit fore/aft movement, so good for EC/BTS like feel if the boots are stiff enough (ie not walking to the barn with the dog ;-). But at high angles, the 3rd strap would support laterally without being too stiff.

To be tried over the next little while. Will have to go to the store and find some supplies first.

[bobdea]

heelsides that look like the pictures you post constantly only prove my point. bend your knees and stop kinking at the waist like that, unless that picture was taken in 1990 it shows you're either adapting to restrictive gear OR you're still trying to ride like it's 1990

I will re post

[Dave ESPI]

NEWCARVER, the third strap keeps the top of your boots from sliding off the highback when tilted over at extreme angles. I actualy was riding this weekend, and broke the spine of a new pair of boots exactly this way when the boot had no lateral support. The highback does not need to be locked down" to still provide that extra support and a flexible highback that is on the Old Burton CustomFreeride binds is quite comfortable both locked and unlocked.

heelsides that look like the pictures you post constantly only prove my point. bend your knees and stop kinking at the waist like that, unless that picture was taken in 1990 it shows you're either adapting to restrictive gear OR you're still trying to ride like it's 1990

Funny, I pondered this, and did a search for "RULES TO SNOWBOARDING"

All I found was some tips on how to be SAFE while doing it with regulations to Skiers Code of Ethics.

Obviously SBS has a "Surfy" style, and you are giving him flack for it?

You constantly rip people down for their preferance to personal style and gear that is contrary to your own OPINION.

THERE ARE NO RULES... THIS IS WHY WE SHRED IN THE FIRST PLACE!

And becides, whats wrong with throwing down in an oldschool style? We are not all Olympic Racers, or wanting to be Hunchbacks of notredame in a compacted position while riding. If it gets the job done, and the rider ends the day with a smile on his face and coodos from others for ripping the slopes, then whats the dif?

Obviously what works for some will not work for all. It is why it is an individualized sport. I don't rawk da bandana and listen to Averil Levine while in the park, so does that mean I can't be in there throwing down a "backside air" instead of a "method"? To each their own.

Bob, In all seriousness what would be your recomendation with Bindings, boots, and angles and board and an EXACT setup for the OP's question as a "package deal"? Nowhere in this entire thread have you came right out and given a difinitive answer... just lots of poo-pooing with comments. Like if he was to just go out and get everything to be a BOBDEA APPROVED Bonefied Rider? What would that be?

[b0ardski]

Wow! Am I hearing right?

NTN ski boots will work in hardboot bindings!???!!!!???

This would be nervana! We've been waiting (while salivating substantially) for NTN to get it's issues sorted so we have a boot for Tele', and hopefully (although unlikely) it will work in an AT binding, and with a boot crampon that will cope with the flex. How would snowboard bindings cope with the NTN boot flex?

I used my original scarpa terminators on a 181 kemper bullet (wide) many years ago and it worked fine with plates but the tele toe is a drag on most boards. I met a guy that cut the terminator toe off because he loved them for boarding.

A lot of riders use ATs for backcountry split boards and the Scarpa NTN may be flexier than some hardboots but they are Dynafit compatible and should be safe in standard plates.

One boot to rule them all:biggthump

[docrob]

Newcarver, whats an A/M deck?

Hi Drzone, I actually have NXT AT's but was interested to hear how folk viewed them. The ratchets and rear lock up lever seem flimsy to me, although they are a lot quicker to in/out and hold their settings better than the K2 Cinch ctx I tried.

I wonder if you'd find them more suitable for carving than me on account of your light weight? You reported some steep carving on quite high angles on the extremecarver forum with these on the dual 158. The advise from Rilliet combined with that here advises lower angles and other bindings. Is it your skill/lack of Kg that overcomes?!

[bobdea]

And becides, whats wrong with throwing down in an oldschool style?

nothing except when you preach it as realistic option to people who are new to the sport.

you, mr AASI in particular should know better.

one of the reasons for this forum is so people can improve their riding, telling them something does not work well is fine.

you constantly say burton sucks then pimp your rossi rental bud light board. you're calling me out for the exact same thing you do. makes no sense, the difference between you pimping something and me is nil except I think you're usually wrong. many other regulars think you're a nutter too, it's not just me.

both you and softboot sailor after it being pointed out what's wrong with 3 strappers revert to " there are no rules maaaaaaan" argument very similar to "just go out and riiiiide, man" that Jack so eloquently called the mating call of the terminal intermediate.

softbootsailor apparently has not even tried modern hard boots. you on the other hand are just bat **** crazy.

neither of you have given any argument of why softboots work better at high angles. it's just a really poor suggestion. I pointed out and you two can't deal.

[docrob]

Newcarver, definitely get back to me after you actually try / know of anyone who tried a scarpa, / garmont prophet NTN boot successfully in an AT, or Bomber or Catek hardboot binding.

I'm not yet convinced that the flex in those boots would allow it without issues.

Someone said my email was disabled on here. How do I fix that?

[b0ardski]

To enable email, Open User cp (control panel) at the page header and change settings on the left menu:biggthump

[Dave ESPI]

Docrob: A/M is lingo for All Mountain board. It is a style of sidecut, manufactured material choice, and shape that allows a rider to take th board "anywhere" and be comfortable on it. Not specificly designed to do anything in particular.

Drzone: I'd be interested in seeing that setup with a 3rd strap and know how it works :)

Bob: after 10+ post of moot opinionated banter in this thread, you come back with more digs and avoid the question I posed to you.

WHAT WOULD YOU RECOMMEND ?

Please answer.

We all ride what we like. PERIOD. I recommend others find out what they like; share said thoughts with others, and continue to ride it too. If that makes me a "nutter for liking what I do and having strong personal convictions to it, then I say its akin to: FORD IS BETTER THAN CHEVY also.

From an AASI teaching standpoint, flair, style, and choice of personal equipment are not judged based upon right or wrong, but just proper use of such and how it translates to the core-values of the dynamics in an AASI lesson plan.

SoftbootSailor: Rawk-on!

[trailertrash]

Think this Vid shows a very calm upper body yet I am Carving turns all the way across the slope, I like

to completely relax and let the weight ride the edge...plus I am an extension freak on both frontside

and backside. Have Fun at ECES

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1Z9C6p1oR8

What level trail would you say you spend most of your day on? It looks like that video is shot on a green trail? Would you call yourself an aggressive carver?

[bobdea]

Docrob: A/M is lingo for All Mountain board. It is a style of sidecut, manufactured material choice, and shape that allows a rider to take th board "anywhere" and be comfortable on it. Not specificly designed to do anything in particular.

Drzone: I'd be interested in seeing that setup with a 3rd strap and know how it works :)

Bob: after 10+ post of moot opinionated banter in this thread, you come back with more digs and avoid the question I posed to you.

WHAT WOULD YOU RECOMMEND ?

Please answer.

We all ride what we like. PERIOD. I recommend others find out what they like; share said thoughts with others, and continue to ride it too. If that makes me a "nutter for liking what I do and having strong personal convictions to it, then I say its akin to: FORD IS BETTER THAN CHEVY also.

From an AASI teaching standpoint, flair, style, and choice of personal equipment are not judged based upon right or wrong, but just proper use of such and how it translates to the core-values of the dynamics in an AASI lesson plan.

SoftbootSailor: Rawk-on!

no, you're changing the argument again making it into a brand type issue which it is not. you're saying it's like ford vs general motors but it's more like internal combustion vs coal fired steam.

I already made recomendations, you must of missed them.

you still have not made a argument for why riding soft boots at 50 degrees is better than hard boots. there is no real argument here, if there is go win something like that.

a BX, a PGS a PSL whatever, show some results or show someone else's results. or just give a sensible argument. the argument you're giving is that it's a option but so are not having bindings at all or just not snowboard none of which are good options.

so, go ahead make a argument for it here.

[Dave ESPI]

Never said hardboots were better, or that soft boots were either.

I said simply "use the proper tool for the job" since day 1.

Humor me and post the complete answer again as to an exact setup you recommend for the OP.

[bobdea]

Never said hardboots were better, or that soft boots were either.

I said simply "use the proper tool for the job" since day 1.

Humor me and post the complete answer again as to an exact setup you recommend for the OP.

which softboots are not at high angles specifically with a wide ass board. I mentioned a ton of good options but they are only as good as you setting them up correctly. softboots work better at lower angles. case closed

[Rob Stevens]

If the OP wants to wear soft boots for the comfort and convenience and will not wear hardboots for the reason that he doesn't want to have the hassle of carrying them around to change into and out of, then it's simple.

One boot. Soft, but of the modern, well-supportive variety.

One binding. Stiff-ish, but light-ish, too. One of the new Burton's has "wings" on the highback to keep you from falling off. This would work at higher angles. An accessory 3rd strap? Sorry Bob... I love you, Man, but it can have a place, when essentially a soft boot in a 3 strap binder is pretty close to a soft hardboot. Well, probably close enough for a new guy like docrob (no offense, fella).

One board? Maybe, but I would probably have two... No, three. One for FR (low angles), one for groomer carves (higer angles) and a Fish for pow (whatever angles I want, because I'm not strapped in).

The big thing is to play with the angles from board to board and to take off the 3rd strap when you reduce your angles, as you don't need anything to keep you from falling off the highback.

I have ridden alot of what is out there in the softboot world and the only way to control them at high angles is to have winged highbacks or a third strap. The other choice is to have very stable and strong legs.

As a nod to Bob, I would not run high angles and softboots myself, but if I could only have one pair of boots and bindings for whatever reason, the above is exactly what I would do.

As I can legitimately charge people exorbitant amounts for the above advice, you could take it as reasonably legit.

If some of you other lads want to see some duckfoot carving, that can be arranged, too.

[b0ardski]

...is on again, with softbootsailer as special guest:lurk:

is this a rerun??

thanks for the voice of reason Rob.

for one boot to do it all you would choose laces and (extra) straps,

I have chosen stepin plates and highly adjustable plastic boots (soft or stiff, tongues or liners). Soft liners & stiff tongues will be a little different than soft tongues and stiff liners. I love raichles for this reason, tweakable.

Dr. Z would love to read your experience with 3rd strap flows.

Rob, what do you use for Noboard boots I have old nordica SBS or merrel supercomps I've been considering?

[Rob Stevens]

Either your most blown out softboots, or a pair of Sorel Caribous. These are the leather ones and the choice of the NB team.

Thin soles for feel and no real ankle support. Think of a boot that would be like being barefoot.

Now back to your regularly scheduled flame war...

[bobdea]

As a nod to Bob, I would not run high angles and softboots myself, but if I could only have one pair of boots and bindings for whatever reason, the above is exactly what I would do.

If some of you other lads want to see some duckfoot carving, that can be arranged, too.

right, this is my point, it can be done but it's far from optimum. it should be avoided if at all possible.

if you're stuck on a snowy island with burton Amp, a pair burton customs and and some 95 airwalk freerides yup, I'd do it too.

but with this guy saying he's gonna drop 600 euros on a new board he might as well do it right otherwise he'll have a poor experience specifically with the Dual being talked about it's specked similar to a tanker 177 or a lib skunk ape 173 or whatever size that skunk 170ish skunk ape is. and he's got a 28 foot. riding high angles would not make sense. at all. he has options and is willing to drop cash on a board might as well do it in a manner that's not on the fringe. you can do it, just does not work all that well. even on the next smaller dual he could make it work in the mid 30s with a lift or by maxing out the built in lift on cateks I'm pretty firm in not thinking wings should be a consideration on softboot bindings as most highbacks you can rotate a fair amount anyway. if you need the wings you should be looking into hard boots. same thing with a 3rd strap.

[bobdea]

please repost about where you ride

I WISH I HAD QUOTED IT!!!!!!!!!!!! DAMN!

[Rob Stevens]

if you're stuck on a snowy island with burton Amp, a pair burton customs and and some 95 airwalk freerides yup, I'd do it too.

Haw!

docrob seems to have placed himself on this very island.

I'm not a gear whore by any means, but I do know that if you want to do each discipline optimally, you need some varying setups. This means at least three boards, hardboots and plates, as well as softboots and bindings.

If you want to place convenience over performance (which a novice could do and still learn alot), you could have a pretty swell life on that snowy island with your Luddite shred device.

[dano]

What level trail would you say you spend most of your day on? It looks like that video is shot on a green trail? Would you call yourself an aggressive carver?

Sorry, but that POV video was painfully weak. I didn't show anything really. I don't think they even got going enough to pull a Norm.