Soft Bindings For Freecarving

[docrob]

Bobdea; yes it's a good belt and braces optimum position Johnasmo takes.

One question; did you check out the Dual spec before you recommended 175? It's quite a unique board designed for extreme carves if you want with hardboots, and freecarves and freeride on powder and harder with soft.. Or are you basing what you say on a standard freecarver.

My softs outside measurement are 32cm, but 10.5 us. The 175 would give me closer to Johnasmos recommended max angles, but I wonder if I'll struggle in chopped up stuff , and to turn tight enough in tight spots.

[Dr D]

catek fr2 or the originals work fine. I ride mine with solamon malamutes at about 60 degrees. I can do anything with this that I can with my hardboots.

[docrob]

encouraging!

[bobdea]

Bobdea; yes it's a good belt and braces optimum position Johnasmo takes.

One question; did you check out the Dual spec before you recommended 175? It's quite a unique board designed for extreme carves if you want with hardboots, and freecarves and freeride on powder and harder with soft.. Or are you basing what you say on a standard freecarver.

My softs outside measurement are 32cm, but 10.5 us. The 175 would give me closer to Johnasmos recommended max angles, but I wonder if I'll struggle in chopped up stuff , and to turn tight enough in tight spots.

the 175 is 27 cm wide, this is the waist width I aim for to run 24 and 12 angles in a size 11 softboot best combo of leverage and low angles I can find for my foot. much wider and it's hard to turn it and much narrower and I have to ride high angles. I want a 175 just can't afford one! also a tanker 177 would be a good bet for that type of duty. that actually why I want a dual to replace my tanker 177.

If I were you I'd run the lowest comfortable angles you can on it, with a 10.5 you could even go duck if you can deal with it. if you have not ridden duck it's worth a try. I don't like it but you might.

[photodad2001]

Burton Mission Binding $89.00 from Sierra Snowboard.com spring sale

Bolt the Highback and add top strap...I use 45 deg. F and B

Size 9.5 US puts toes and heels where they need to be on 168 Supermodel

Works great for Pow and Carve

Does NOT WORK for DUCKASS, PARK SH.T, FAKIE ,WHATEVER so DO NOT USE

for that...OK

This price is cheap enough for the EXPERTS on here to try...then maybe they could offer their thoughts based actual USAGE...:)

I use a similar set up. I bolted the highback and added a strap to some Burton SI bindings. ONLY ONE STRAP TO BUCKLE!!! Plust the Foundation boots are way stiffer than any other soft boot I've tried. I ride more than 50 on the front (disk doesn't show past 45) and about 40 rear.

[BigBump]

I'm with Bob on this....if you are going to modifying soft boot bindings so they can be run at high angles, you might as well just use soft hard boots.

Personally, for soft booting(which I do 90% of the time now) I run Salomon Relay Pro's at 15, -9. The relays are sure soft laterally but stay stiff toe to heel thanks to a steel cable running between the front of the binding and the high back and two steel rods on either side of the baseplate. They provide plenty of response toe and heel but allow for tons of range of motion toward the tip and tail. The footbed on them is also kind of thick so it raises your foot up a bit off the board. I have a size 9boot and have them on a Palmer Timless 160 and have no issuse with boot out when carving.

I use 32focus boa's with them which are a stiffish freeride boot with no issues.

[leeho730]

Docrob,

I recon softbootsailer's solution of attaching 3rd strap to the mission binding might be a better solution. With 3rd strap you get some lateral stiffness plus ability to stiffen or soften forward flex. You can do some freestyle stuff as well. FR2's too heavy and expensive.

For the price of buying FR2, you can probably buy both burton mission binding and TD3, which I think is a better deal.

Hope this helps :-)

[docrob]

OK bobdea!

Yeah, I'm spent up too. Long dark winter nights are a good time to get the strategy right tho; it'll soon be winter 2010/11 !

So you don't thing freeride manoeverability (non carving) in the tight spots and carving/freeride on lumps would be compromised significantly by the extra board length and stiffness of the 175 at 75 kg body weight?

[bobdea]

OK bobdea!

Yeah, I'm spent up too. Long dark winter nights are a good time to get the strategy right tho; it'll soon be winter 2010/11 !

So you don't thing freeride manoeverability (non carving) in the tight spots and carving/freeride on lumps would be compromised significantly by the extra board length and stiffness of the 175 at 75 kg body weight?

it might, I have not been on the dual yet. I hear it's fairly soft though. I put people on my tanker 177 that were about 180 lb/80 kilos and they loved the thing in the woods of mammoth mountain. I'm guessing dual is not gonna be radically different.

[nils]

Interesting topic showing there is room for a "hybrid" binding for sure.

Its a difficult choice to make on the DUal: do i want to ride hard and EC, and ride 20-30% offpiste on the sides of the slopes, or do i want a real softboot setup to be able to really enjoy offpiste and be able to do tricks. Softboots will not be able to be efficient a 45°, and boot overhang will affect carving...dilemna..As always its going to be personnal preferences of the rider! Fin: its time to create a softboot binding for freecarving alpine way/freeriding

Its going up to everyone, my personnal preference is to loose agility by keeping angles and use softer hardboots setups ( TD3SW). I would have want to use my SB121 again, but the sole is too long and adds more angles...What i like is to bomb on piste and do turns and small jumps offpistes which my set up allows. Riding duck is no option, and riding softboots and loose efficiency on piste neither one ( plus the spread legs style is ugly to my opinion)..

As for board width: 27cm is wide, but strangely i don't feel the width at all, its only at very low speeds that you feel it: the softer flex pattern ( compare to other boards) makes turn initiation not that of a problem really.

Nils

[johnasmo]

About the Duel... From their brochure:

The Sword Duel is a totally new concept in the world of snowboarding.

Hmm... never heard of BX? or All Mountain alpine boards? Seems to me the only thing totally new is that this time it's a Swoard brand board.

It combines the shape of a freeride board with the construction of the Extremecarver, the high performance alpine board & flagship of the Swoard line.

Sounds like a stiff freeride shaped board. I have an F2 Eliminator that fits that bill, and there are plenty of other BX boards that fall into that category. That can translate into really good edge hold and carvability from a freeride shape, and some reasonable fresh pow surfing, but ends up sucking in the lumpy crud or tracked out powder. There's no techno-magic that can erase the compromises in sidecut and flex patterns that go with trying to make one board do it all, especially when "all" includes extreme carving.

At the risk of getting flamed, I'll share my feelings about straddling the hardboot/softboot boundary with one board. Just my personal opinions here, but I am speaking as an avid soft booter and hard booter. My quiver and time on the mountain slightly favors soft booting on freeride shapes, but I also really like trenching it up in hard boots on alpine boards, so here goes...

A quiver of one sounds nice on paper, but mixing extreme carving with a freeride shape seems like it will produce a board that only really shines for the first hour after first chair. Yes, it will be a good (but not great) hour whether it's fresh corduroy or a foot of untracked fresh, but once it's tracked out, you'll want to head to the bar. If it's stiff enough to extreme carve well, then even if it has a decambered nose and tail it will get thrown around by lumpy tracked out snow. Yeah, you can do it and it's even fun if you can see the bumps coming, but throw flat light or fog into the mix and you'll be cursing that unforgiving flex (as you head to the bar). I had a Donek freeride board that sounds very much like the "new" Duel, and believe me, it was not my goto board on a powder day or a foggy groomer day -- hell of a lot of fun soft boot carving fast groomers on a clear day though.

If you live near a mountain and get to ride a lot, nothing beats a deep quiver. I often bring 4 to 7 boards to the hill with me and change out based on conditions. I don't always use them all, but if I stay the whole day, I often use 2 or 3 different ones. Of course, this is easier to do if you drive yourself to your local hill and parking is only a short walk from the lifts, but if that's the case, then stock up on NOS (New Old Stock) in a variety of shapes and sizes when it's on sale. Good deals are plentiful for freeride shapes, not so much for alpine.

If you only get to ride a little, or can't afford a variety of boards, then settle for something that you know will be fun all day regardless of conditions, which is most likely a softish, medium length, freestyle setup. There's a reason that soft, short, decambered, freestyle boards are so popular -- they're pretty easy and fun to ride in all conditions, hence they are the general public's quiver of one.

Does this all mean the Duel is trash? No, absolutely not. It has it's sweet spot, but it's still a niche player in my book, and it's a small niche at that. What are the best conditions for such boards? Fast, smooth, and too icy for hardboot alpine carving to be fun. Smooth hardpack is the alpine boarding sweet spot, but it stops being fun when you no longer have confidence in the edge hold when completing turns. When it comes to the mix of shallow carving and slarving that is the controlled sliding of icy hardpack, soft boots and a stiff BX shape end up being more fun. I've been packing my F2 Eliminator to the hill every day this week in case it turns out to be the right conditions to make it the funnest choice, but instead it's been great hardboot carving.

The only thing wrong with the Duel is the marketing message.

Duel is as performant on the slopes as off, piste or powder, wearing softboots or hardboots. Whereas before one had to choose between different types of boards, now it's simply a choice of what kind of riding you intend to do by changing the settings on the board.

Unless the "settings" are flex or sidecut, I don't think so. I'd much rather just crab another perfect board for conditions from the quiver than to remount bindings 3 times a day on a compromised shape.

Unless I'm mistaken, these boards are aimed at soft boot carving, and that's what they should say. Buy it for what it actually is, not because it pretends to be everything. If they've really engineered a board that is uncompromised at extreme carving in hardboots and surfing pow and crud in soft boots, with a single flex and sidecut, then kudos to them, but I'm going to stick with having a quiver of different flexes, lengths, and sidecuts. Nothing against, the board, just the message. I wouldn't mind having a Duel in the quiver, one of many, but it's not going to be a quiver killer.

That's my 2 cents, but in full disclosure, I have not demoed a Duel.

P.S. If I were buying one, I'd probably go with the 168. A 10 meter sidecut radius on a freeride shape will make the board feel long even when it's not. The 175, actually being long to start with, might feel huge.

[skategoat]

Just wondering, what are typical angles for freeriding in softies? I mean for the hardbooting crowd that moves over occasionally to softies. I'm running 28/20 and I'm wondering if that's a bit too steep.

[Dave ESPI]

This is one days worth of riding from sun up to sun down.

Add in also a few park runs on the 121 MINI that is in the trunk of the car also.

Proper tool, for proper time.

I could go all day on one setup, but when wanting the most out of your day and experience, having "options" is sweet.

Skategoat, I ride the majority of my boards at 38 front 28 rear, or 46 front 38 rear on the 3 strap setup.

THe alpine BX board with TD2s Im around 68 front 64 rear. the Mini, Im ducked out at +28 -28

[bobdea]

skategoat your angles sound fairly normal

24 or 21 and 12 is usually what I run.

most competent softbooters run angles under 40. I know of two people that I have seen first hand that run higher angles and look good. one is is living the life hunting cougar in aspen and the other does not post here.

[Buell]

Just wondering, what are typical angles for freeriding in softies? I mean for the hardbooting crowd that moves over occasionally to softies. I'm running 28/20 and I'm wondering if that's a bit too steep.

On softies I follow the same rule as hardboots. Let the board determine the angles by lining up the toe and heel with the edges of the board. In powder, there is a little leeway but if you want to carve when you hit the soft powder day groom, you better have your toe and heel with the edge of the edges of the board (and that is not always enough to avoid boot out).

I have a low profile 26 mondo boot and on a 24 cm wide board, I only hit 39f/33r with Burton P1 bindings. They do fine at those angles. On a 26 cm wide board I will ride as low as 21f/12r.

As Bob said, 28f/20r sound fine.

[Buell]

That's my 2 cents, but in full disclosure, I have not demoed a Duel.

Did not want to quote the whole thing, but that was some pretty strong opinion about how a board you haven't ridden will ride.

I also do not need a board that will ride both soft and hardboots, but a lot of people do like a versatile board and I am pretty sure that it will have a wider riding range than you describe. The Swoard guys put a lot of effort into creating a purpose built board that is loved by many, and I expect this one will be no different.

[newcarver]

I have found that running around 30-28 in front and 18-20 in back is a good place. Also using a little gilmore bias. With softies any angle above this, and I lose some power to the edges. These angles allow me to ride off piste, in powder, or carve on moderate pitched groomers very well. It is pretty comfy with these angles. More comfortable with higher angles and hardboots on an AM board though. Have not tried tricks but I'm able to catch air without any problem. I'm too old for tricks anyway.

[johnasmo]

Did not want to quote the whole thing, but that was some pretty strong opinion about how a board you haven't ridden will ride.

I also do not need a board that will ride both soft and hardboots, but a lot of people do like a versatile board and I am pretty sure that it will have a wider riding range than you describe. The Swoard guys put a lot of effort into creating a purpose built board that is loved by many, and I expect this one will be no different.

It was late when I posted, and I realize now that it probably does come off sounding more opinionated against the board and its style of riding than I really intend it to be.

It was intended to be a pro-quiver post rather than an anti-Duel post. I favor rider versatility combined with board specialization over board versatility and rider specialization.

I think the Duel and boards like it will be a popular for hardbooters that like low angles, or soft booters that like high angles, but that this is a small niche within the already small carving + freeride community. I believe there are more riders in this community like myself that treat carving and freeriding almost as two different disciplines and get a more enjoyable riding experience when changing up riding style and gear between them.

After being at an SES, you can see that there are many ways to ride and carve snowboards. I'm not saying there's anything wrong if you enjoy riding hardboots at low angles or softboots at high angles, but be sure you're one of those riders before spending $850+ on a board that is specialized for that market. The reason for my first post was to caution others that what is marketed as versatility in the board may not appeal to them if they are not one of the riders whose riding style is specialized to suit it. Try to demo it first.

As for my personal setups, I prefer hardboots at +65/+60 for laid out carving on hardpack, and softboots at +15/-3 for freeriding the soft or cruddy stuff. I only have one softboot setup that I keep at +36/+15 for what could be called "softboot carving". These stance differences are quite substantial, and result in very different riding styles, which in turn suits them to very different boards in terms of length, stiffness, and sidecut; hence the pro-quiver attitude.

[nils]

Johnasmo,

Your point of view makes sense, and I did not feel offended: its normal to be sceptical regarding the announced fields aimed by the board. I think it would be a great idea to ride it :). During the season, more and more riders will post pics or vids of them in various situations and settings...

i'm with alpine settings and rather high angles for such a shape ( i hate overhang) and yes, in deep pow i prefer a Swallowtail, but from the few days i've spent on my Dual ( not duel ;), its clear that it will fit 75-80% of the situations when its not early morning corduroy or deep pow....Its not really comparable to a BX board because its has a very soft flex pattern compare to a BX... ( its already the case with the Extremecarver that has a softer flex than most other boards). We have a rider in the swiss national BX and we'll follow closely his feedback on the Dual ( he rides it in BX races): He might need a harder flex for the BX, but we'll know after more time...

[johnasmo]

Will there be any to demo at SES 2010? I'll have soft boots with me and wouldn't mind to demo one. I assumed (and shouldn't have) that the flex must still be on the stiff side like most BX boards to handle the laid out extreme carving turns. Combining a smallish (for carving) 10 meter sidecut with a soft board seems like it would try to carve too tight when high on edge, but maybe that's the magic in the Dual's DNA.

[nils]

The flex is not related to edge hold, or basically it is but its more about the torsion distribution that the edge hold works or not on that board. I've tested it with huge pressure EC turns to see if it would release without succeeding in loosing an edge ( on good snow of course)..(The 175 get to small turns around 5-6m radii when you really want it to do...)

[docrob]

Jees ! some pace here!

...get back from work to ideas, wake up pre dawn and they're still coming.

BlueB, ECshredder, softbootsailer, seraph, DrD,Photodad,bigbump ...

I'm busy checking out all your suggestions. Thank YOU!

Bumpyride.. Would your 3 straps fit mondo 28/28.5? How much are they? I'm a little curious, despite Bobs reservations. Maybe a cheap way to checkout 3 strap. I promised to be home to NH for valentines. Maybe it won't be cool to be drilling and bolting highbacks ?

[docrob]

Johnasmo'

Sound principle! In the ideal world, specialised of course is best; way to go!

I run 36 windsurfs for different waves, winds, sails etc, and 12 different skis...but some get used a whole lot more because they are pretty damn good at more stuff.

Travelling by air to the hill for snowsports is restrictive. One set of skis, 2 snowboards and 2 bindings is tops, with boots; even to the US, now they have halved the free checkin.

A board that can accept different setups and cover carving and freeride, even on one setup is on my list.

I am confused however by Nils comment that early morning corduroy is outside the dual brief. ..Translation distortion perhaps?

(Fivat of SWOARD laid EC turns for the camera on a dual 168 with hardboots on groomed piste).

...and yes, we hear again, and again, that the Dual has plenty of flex front-back, but with torsional stiffness sideways. Does this mean we can ride longer lengths with less penalty/ retain more manoeverability for a given length than e.g. BX boards? ...and so get less boot out and lower angles and more versatility with soft boots??

How critical is length for freeride at the extremes of the recommended rider weight range? Nils points to width as the limiting factor; but that's with hardboots and bigger angles. With softboots and lower angles, is length just as restrictive re' manoeverability when not carving? ...or can the longitudinal flex reduce this?

[Dave ESPI]

Docrob, you have your Email dissabled.

I have a spare pair of 3 strap bindings. They are "beaters", but Id be willing to part with them if you want to experiment. I got them from BOLA from allboardsports in Colorado lastyear. The high backs and thirdstrap are in good shape. I'm missing one of the toe-ramp extension pieces for the base, but they are not necessary anyway unless you are rawking the size 12+ boots.

LMK. I'd let them go at a more than fair price.

[bobdea]

Jees ! some pace here!

...get back from work to ideas, wake up pre dawn and they're still coming.

BlueB, ECshredder, softbootsailer, seraph, DrD,Photodad,bigbump ...

I'm busy checking out all your suggestions. Thank YOU!

Bumpyride.. Would your 3 straps fit mondo 28/28.5? How much are they? I'm a little curious, despite Bobs reservations. Maybe a cheap way to checkout 3 strap. I promised to be home to NH for valentines. Maybe it won't be cool to be drilling and bolting highbacks ?

really, they suck. makes no sense you have less range of motion than in head stratos pros with a BTS. additionally, if you lock out the highback make sure it has a release of some sort. locked backs = massive failure rate, just ask burton. usually due to chairs crushing them when you get off the lift.