Snowman Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Thats a scary franken boot repair. Don't know if I would ride that for very long. Are those self tapping sheet metal screws in the bottom row?!?!?!? Also, I am wondering if this a temperature induced failure? Think Snow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 boy, be careful on that. I'd not ride those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ear dragger Posted December 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I ordered rc10s. the fix was to get me through the weekend. and it did. the bottom row is self tappers. predrilled of course. surprisingly that part of the boot is solid plastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I would bet this type of failure doesn't happen with stepins as standard bail bindings put way more stress on the boot sole, even when standing at rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow4ever Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Eric. That sucks man. Luckly you are not hurt. I sure hope the break-in time for the new boots is quick and painless. Thank you again on the tip you gave me @ Stratton. It made world of difference in my riding. Best Regards. -- David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tufty Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I would bet this type of failure doesn't happen with stepins as standard bail bindings put way more stress on the boot sole, even when standing at rest. Maladjusted bale bindings do, yes. If your bindings are adjusted right, though, at rest the stress should be approximately the same. Once you're in motion, a bale binding has a slightly longer fulcrum on the boot in toeside turns, and as the "ledge" is a tight curve that's where you'd expect to see failures. On the other hand, the forces are spread through the heel area of the boot, and not relying on screws holding in place (for the crazy) or t-nuts acting on the heel of the boot (i.e. forces being applied at 90° to the holding surface). I could tell stories of walls being taken out by tightwires... Personally, I'd say it's much of a muchness between the two, with the intecs winning out slightly by force of not rising being overtightened. I'd also stand by my supposition that the rigidity of the bindings plays a major part in this - I've never seen a "nearly new" (i.e. less that 10 years old) snowboard boot blow out that way on "normal" bindings, and have personally never experienced it, even on hits hard enough to mangle the bales hard enough that they come out of the bindings / vice versa, or to rip insert packs clean through the topsheet. I saw a pair of *very* old burton boots come apart totally, but they were highly damaged and gouged beforehand - there's no way I would have ridden them. < 2 year old boots have no right to be coming apart unless they have been maltreated. As a lifty, I see my share of blown ski boots, it tends to be 20+ year old red boots in temperatures < -15°C. The white boots of the same vintage only seem to blow out at -20°C, I'm guessing UV aging and dye composition plays a major part in this. Back to snowboard boots; if it were only one case, I'd put it down to manufacturing flaws or taking a hit that damaged the boot in that area - 4 cases in this thread, and (at least) 2 separate models / manufacturers of boot, tends to put it into the "scary" category. That said, bobble's description below sounds like classic overtightening, possibly / probably aided and abetted by the differential in contraction rates between the plastic of the boots and the aluminium of the bindings. "on really cold days i'd have to hammer down on the bale to close it. on warm days (above 10F, guessing) at the start of the run it would take some effort to close the bale with one hand." But what do I know? My boots / boards / bindings are all "crap". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Maladjusted bale bindings do, yes. If your bindings are adjusted right, though, at rest the stress should be approximately the same.... On the other hand, the forces are spread through the heel area of the boot, and not relying on screws holding in place (for the crazy) or t-nuts acting on the heel of the boot (i.e. forces being applied at 90° to the holding surface). I'm not trying to be argumentative here ... and I'm no engineer, but this simply makes no sense to me. A properly adjusted stepin intec/fintec interface requires practically zero pressure exerted on the boot and the bails. In fact, if there is any significant pressure exerted on the boot between the heel and the toe bail it becomes damn-near impossible to step into. With a standard binding some significant pressure is *required* simply to keep the binding securely closed - maybe not a ton of pressure, but certainly way more than you would have in a stepin interface. And that is just talking about when the boot is stationary in the binding without any additional pressures presented from actual snowboarding. That said, unless the user is over tightening his/her bindings I doubt this pressure is all that significant of a contributor for boot failure. Additional stresses that standard bail bindings will present: I think the most significant contributor of bail bindings has to do with boot roll in the rear bail. Bail bindings permit the sole of the boot to roll in the binding way more readily than stepins (which is part of why racers love them so much ... just look at Fin's sidewinder project). When a boot rolls in the binding (say medially in the rear foot, if you have lower angles and are bringing your rear knee forward) you are going to point load the bail ledge at its very outermost (anterior) point. When the boot is trying to roll in the binding that outermost ledge on the rear boot is probably taking 80% of the tension load being input by the rider. That point is immediately below where both boots in this thread failed: -Rear foot, anterior side right above and around the heel ledge. -Standard bail bindings. -Neither failure occurred with a stepin binding. -Two different pair of boots. Stepin bindings may use four small bore holes to hold the screws in, but it is not how small the hole is that matters, what matters is the the way the load from the screw is distributed, and how many screws there are. Another relevant factor is that the screws go into a ribbed footbed and forces are exerted perpendicular to that surface: this will permit the sole of the boot to flex somewhat, and thus distribute the load more evenly over several screws, each of which is anchored with a wide tee-nut bolt. The overall effect of this design is to spread the load over a much wider area than a bail binding. Distributing forces over a wider area reduces point loading, which is a factor that contributes significantly to boot failure. Something else to consider: most people adjust their bindings at the beginning of the day (if at all) or in their living room. As we all know, snow sticks to your boot-soles as you ride. On a bail binding, you can still get into your bindings with a little bit of snow on your soles, Sure - you try and scrape it off a bit is always left over and as you ride it gets compressed into ice that is much harder to get off. I remember that this would result in one's bindings tightening throughout the day from when I used to ride bail bindings. This additional tightness and snow will have the effect of increasing the pressure bearing down on the heel bail, while also increasing the pressure exerted over the length of the footbed. The combined effect of those pressures is going to put tension on the area immediately above the heel bail, where both of these failures occurred. Snow buildup on step-ins is pretty much a non-issue: it's pretty much impossible to step in if there is any significant amount of snow on your boots or bindings. You have to scrape it all off and what little remains doesn't get compressed into ice because it is the (f)intec heel pins that provide the connection to the heel cup ... the sole of the heel does not even touch the bottom of the heel cup so the snow cannot be pressurized into ice. Otherwise: Each time you clip in with the bail bindings there is a moment when you are stretching the lever bail over the toe piece, and pressurizing the boot sole to a greater extent than when you are riding ... this is pretty minor but it represents a repetitive stress in terms of quickly applying and releasing pressure. Probably doesn't matter in most circumstances though I could see it being an issue in very cold weather, that tends to make things more brittle. Any engineers on the board want to weigh in as to whether or not I've been smoking crack lately? As an aside: I actually think bail bindings (can be) somewhat more convenient than stepins: because they are not as finicky about fit. Stepins are more finicky: they have to fit perfect or your fit is either sloppy or too hard to get into, and if you get snow on your heel they can be a pain in the ass. But when everything is adjusted correctly and the snow is not on your heels (on a cold day say) they are the shizz! 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Ear dragger Posted December 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Here's the million dollar question: If you don't over tighten a standard binding, are the boots prone to splitting because of the interface. Are stepins stronger than standard? I find it hard to believe after this many years of non stepin bindings, that they are not close or equal in strength. One thing is for sure, I am not buying stepins after just throwing down for new boots. So i will set up as best as possible. if they break, you can bet your @@@ I will be looking to upz to replace them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 If they break, you can bet your @@@ I will be looking to upz to replace them IMO: regardless of whichever interface creates the greatest amount of stress - the boots should be able to withstand the stresses of riding with both/either stepin and standard bindings, for well over two seasons, even 100+ day seasons. Buckles breaking and tongues cracking I understand ... but it seems to me that the sole of a boot should never break. Otherwise: Assuming that bails are more stressful than stepins - I would think the UPZ's should be engineered expressly for them, given the fact that they do not come t-nutted for a step-in binding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin42 Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 On the one hand we need to be aware of operator error (way over tightening the bindings) (a definition would be handy). On the other hand since TD and Catek use discreet holes for adjustments it sems like one too loose (sloppy fit), next too tight (see B&W photos above) IMO the boot manufacturer's should build these expensive specialty boots stronger in these known areas of failure. It seems that the outside area of the heel above the binding bail is where 3 standard deviations of all cracking seems to be occurring. Humm planned obsolescence? One mans opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjvircks Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 since TD and Catek use discreet holes for adjustments one too loose (sloppy fit), next too tight not so at all. TD has quite a bit of adjustability designed in to allow almost perfect fit-up to just about anything made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 I just realised you broke the virus too. WTF are you doing to smoke all this gear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 I have never seen that before in my 23 years of board building .. I mean of ridding.. Holy smoke is right.. I have put some serious tourque on my boots for years and never had that happen.. Latent failure in the plastic injection molding process...hmm maybe.. and usually thats it.. a pre existing porosity or something in the process.. again until you look at it and see if there were voids and what not.. you will never know.. Thats why we in aerospace have xrays and NDT... hard to tell with plastic.. but im just an Engineer.. so you better ask the nurse.. bahaa.. all jokes aside.. as long as I have been on this forum.. never seen that.. even if you were like 300 I would think the bail would fail before the heel split.. I have broken bails way before a unified molded heel would split.. thats some torque.. This is a good one.. and keep us posted.. like I said.. never seen this one.. like people said... doing a 10 step root cause failure analysis would be helpful... get your team together.. make sure you all keep an open mind and don't discount any one in your brainstorming session. Lets us know root cause anlysis and corrective action.. RSS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronG Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 not so at all. TD has quite a bit of adjustability designed in to allow almost perfect fit-up to just about anything made. If you are only using the holes of the binding to get the correct fit you are doing it wrong. You can get the binding/boot adjustment close just using the holes of the binding. Final fit should be taken care of using the banjo bolts on the toe and heel bails!!! This applies to TDs not Catek. On my Cateks, if one hole is too tight the other too loose, I opt for the loose fitting and wrap electrical tape around the bails to take up the excess play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategoat Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 If you are only using the holes of the binding to get the correct fit you are doing it wrong. You can get the binding/boot adjustment close just using the holes of the binding. Final fit should be taken care of using the banjo bolts on the toe and heel bails!!! This applies to TDs not Catek.On my Cateks, if one hole is too tight the other too loose, I opt for the loose fitting and wrap electrical tape around the bails to take up the excess play. That was my big complaint with Cateks which is why I got rid of mine. They were never quite right - either too loose or too tight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steamboatrailer Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 Get some Fintec heels,T-nuts.Forget about broken heels and bales.Make sure pins are in full on your rear heel,then ride like a mad man.If that don't work try some sidewinders,I'm waiting for the step ins to come out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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