Corey Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 This past Saturday I went out on my last day of the season. There was an extremely hard base, basically rock hard yellow ice, with some firm but well-groomed cord about 1-3" thick on top. It was brutally hard in the morning but softened up enough to trust your edges a fair bit. I was the only one able to leave trenches on this particular run, though there are very few people in this area that are even aware that skis or boards can be carved. I was having a challenging but fun time exploring how much I could push it before the edge slid out and I went down. I was having an issue on probably 1 run out of 10, occasionally (both toe and heelside) the edge would start chattering/bouncing and I just couldn't stop it. I was able to catch a picture of my tracks from the lift: I tried all kinds of things to cause it and to stop it once it started, but I couldn't determine any kind of reliable way to do either. I think it may have started on the real icy spots, letting the board rotate a bit suddenly. Details that may matter: 205 lb rider, F2 163 SL board, Bomber TD2 w/TD3 e-rings, Deeluxe 700T boots, BTS with blue springs, chatter happens around 15-25 mph (wild guess). Any thoughts/advice on what may be causing this and what to do if you feel the board start chattering? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acitarella Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 after the apex of the turn (3 o'clock or 9 o'clock), start to lean back and right the back of the board. I find I chatter like this when I'm pressing the front of the board too hard between 3 and 6 o'clock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_roboteye Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 It's possible your stance is too wide, not concentrating enough of your weight at the waist of the board. If you look at a ski, all of the skiers weight is concentrated in the middle (waist) of the equipment. Skis and snowboards are constructed the same way, and are subject to the same laws of physics. You could try narrowing, if there is no positive change, you can put it back the way it was, no harm done. later, Dave R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Put your change in your left pocket. just kiddin. just a thought, but...at 205, any chance you're a bit heavy for the board and what you're asking it to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istvan Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Chatter can be caused by many factors. But usually a low center of gravity, flexed knees and a nice push-pull helps. Just my $0.02. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 just a thought, but...at 205, any chance you're a bit heavy for the board and what you're asking it to do? +1 also, whenever I get that (especially on heelside) it's usually fixed by concentrating on touching my rear hand to my front boot toe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 + weight distribution :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted April 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Cool stuff. This is the stiffest slalom-style board F2 makes. It's definitely possible that I'm too heavy for it though. They only list a minimum weight of 154 lbs with no max weight: http://www.blue-tomato.com/en/Raceboards/F2-FTWO-Speedster-SL-Equipe-153-08-09/product.bto?product=300067500&category=20000&source=brand&brand=1 I use this board when I want to slow it down and rail tighter turns. It usually comes out in very hard conditions where falling will mean instant bruises, at least then I'm going slower when I do fall down! (I've got an order in with Coiler for an ice board to replace this one as I see these conditions a lot :)) Stance is around 19.5", height is 5'11", inseam is 33". Stance is about 1 cm forward of the insert pattern's center point but still behind the center point of the running length. I tried going both wider and narrower but really didn't like it. If it was a stance issue, wouldn't it be consistent in all turns? My wallet/change is in my left pants pocket, multi-tool in left jacket pocket, car keys in right jacket pocket. Maybe the uneven weight distribution is a factor? ;) :p Regarding "feeding the dollar"/weight transfer to the back: this may be the cause. I find this board has a pretty narrow sweet spot - which is REALLY fun when you get it right and annoying when you get it wrong. Maybe I'm just a bit gun-shy every now and then... ----- Once you start chattering, what do you do to fix it? I can't unweight the edge as I'm pretty committed to the turn at that point. My technique thus far has been to try to pull the board back in line, it works occasionally but is pretty unreliable. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 +1also, whenever I get that (especially on heelside) it's usually fixed by concentrating on touching my rear hand to my front boot toe. +1 I have less issues with boards that the flex is right, too soft or stiff and I chatter more. none of my metals chatter, IMO on the newer boards you can suck a lot more and no one will know because the new boards are that much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Just get a metal board for god's sake! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted April 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Just get a metal board for god's sake! Haha, I've got my name in with Bruce! But I also want to become a better rider on any board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 board is too small and probably too soft, and you are probably going too fast for it. get a longer, metal board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 I've been struggling with toeside chatter on hard snow for most of my 3 year hard booting career. I get less if I 1 Get the board on a high edge early, usually by trying to get my hip towards the snow which means "Get into a funny contorted position" I tend a bit towards "hands down, butt up" but I'm working on it. 2 Stay in the drivers seat and don't move towards the tail 3 Stay flexed so I can extend a bit if the board skips 4 Reeeaaallly watch the pressure, I can push pretty hard at the top of the turn but by the fall line I've gotta really modulate and soften it to keep the board from skipping. An aggressive extension to 80-90% at the top and aggressive flexion at the bottom helps even out the pressure and avoids the "skipping at 8 o'clock" issue I've been having (I'm goofy) Not sure why moving back works for some but it's chatter-o-rama for me if I do that, I've gotta stay at least in the middle and a bit forward works best. Heck, maybe *I* need a metal board LOL :) Good luck man :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BulletProof Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Snow conditions? I've seen it a couple times this spring, with shade or a slight change in slope orientation, you can get some weird ball bearing chunks in the cooler areas, not as big a your usual golf balls but enough to lose your edge if you're not aggressive enough. Weird riding a forgiving Hammer Private into that crud yesterday. btw, I wasn't informed of what kind a board the 'private' is, I was definitely surprised! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 I ride a supermodel with 3 straps and I do not skid or chatter on a turnunless I want to...I ride in Colorado where the conditions are just plain perfect for Carving...Hero snow if you please. Always however at the end of the season there are some harder snow conditions that cause the board to release out of the turn, this is because I am not providing the force that is needed in these different conditions to maintain the edge. Riding light to me is as good as I can do it because the constant of the turn is just that...Constant The turn then becomes an even pressure that is maintained through a series of turns where the track is a line of consistent depth. I would not be on this equipment if I lived on the East Coast or the West Coast.:D Now is that constant *pressure* or constant *radius* because on an inclined plane it's got to be one *or* the other..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Varsava Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Bob Dea is dead on with the flex issue. While testing there are some boards which just don't chatter and others which you cannot stop( usually way too stiff) with boards that are close in regards to flex, I adjust my technique from Euro to race style to see if the added edge pressure slows down bouncing and it usually does. Boards that are too soft I find will not bounce as much as wash out, somewhat of a different feeling . If its an SL board, the speed needs to be really kept under control as you can get above the designed speed range quickly on tighter sidecuts, then they won't set properly. Metal is a definite help but stiffness is still a big factor. Riding with a guy last Fri and he was on a 172ish F2 and you could see he had solid technique but the board was continually bouncing. Got him on a softer metal 177 and life was good, very good!! The flex on some of those glass boards is very lively due to hi camber and stiffness which can make matters worse. My recent designs compensate for sidecut and the amount the boards must bend by utilizing different carbon/glass ratios to allow for an easier bend in tighter sidecuts where you give up a bit of rebound to gain quietness. My feelings are if an entire line of boards use the same wood, laminations etc, some of them are going to work better than others in certain conditions. With longer sidecuts you need more life from the materials as the boards just do not get it from actively bending as much in most situations. If you go to a hi rebound lamination in tight sidecuts, the boards need to be longitudinally softer so they will still get to bend into the desired arc. BV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted April 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Snow conditions? There was an extremely hard base, basically rock hard yellow ice, with some firm but well-groomed cord about 1-3" thick on top. It was brutally hard in the morning but softened up enough to trust your edges a fair bit. I was the only one able to leave trenches on this particular run, though there are very few people in this area that are even aware that skis or boards can be carved. No ball bearings or anything like that, just plain rock hard with a little bit of packed snow on top. The harder I pushed it, the wider the trenches got. I couldn't penetrate the ice layer to go any deeper, more G-force meant I just moved more snow off the ice layer. I haven't encountered anything like this in Colorado but it seems to be fairly common here as they don't groom very deep. I think I was just going too fast for the little SL board and my abilities. ;) In hindsight I should have dug out something a little longer given the good snow on top of the ice. It certainly was working most of the time though, I've never been approached so many times in one day to find out what the heck I was riding on and how I was turning so hard on crappy snow. I almost ran out of Bomber cards. Cool! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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