My entire experience:First day on an alpine board

[newcarver]

If you need to check your speed, try staying in the carve until you are going back up the fall line. Once you feel like you're at a comfortable speed then transition to the next turn. Definitly learn to skid for emergencies though. Harder to do with more edge gripping the snow. If you put some split in the binding angles (more angle in front than back) it will help with your knee pain. Keep at it and it will get much easier.

[carvedog]

did I say I was kidding? any signs of me laughing? no there isn't...dude

this was your post in another thread, what happened to that...why don't you look up that thread on how to use the ignore list, and put me on it

Don't mind Divebomb. Same as you, I think he's a good guy, he just comes off wrong sometimes. I know I do too.

Glad to hear you getting after it.

So you going to something smaller? If you can find something in the 173-77ish AM, softer, easier to flex and just a tiny bit wider, I think you would have a ball.

Your Reactors don't work as step in, I don't think. And at 6'4 you might love this board after a couple outings. Nate was right on about the subtlety of it.

You'll get there.

I had a great practice when I first got on my 197 in slipping race courses heelside and toeside. Learned a bit about balance doing that.

[crazyTKDsquirrel]

sounds like you made more progress than most people do after their initial outing so i wouldn’t worry about the big sidecut on your board. most beginners initially turn using mostly just the sidecut but eventually your skills will develop to the point were you can alter your turn radius by actively bending the board.

Not to hijack or anything, but how much does manipulating the board have to do with leg strength? I'll be on an F2 as well, and this is making me think about the stiffness and how it might be a problem for me at this point.

[BryanZ]

If you need to check your speed, try staying in the carve until you are going back up the fall line. Once you feel like you're at a comfortable speed then transition to the next turn. Definitly learn to skid for emergencies though. Harder to do with more edge gripping the snow. If you put some split in the binding angles (more angle in front than back) it will help with your knee pain. Keep at it and it will get much easier.

I thought about doing this...

I think the problem is that I haven't learn to "flex" my board as you guys call it. I was letting the edge control my turn radius. A when I'm letting the edge control, 16 meters radius makes a 105 foot circle...And that is what it felt like on the slope. Needless to say I spent most of the day stratching my head on how in the hell you guys make S turns. Mid-day I concluded that it was because of my GS board and I quit trying. I guess not...I definatly have to work on making tighter turns.

[BryanZ]

Not to hijack or anything, but how much does manipulating the board have to do with leg strength? I'll be on an F2 as well, and this is making me think about the stiffness and how it might be a problem for me at this point.

I've been hitting the gym hard for the last two years, I do a lot of squating mainly for snowboarding.

Somehow....I don't know how, I gave my quads a workout under my own body weight. I would highly recommend getting a couple sessions of squats under your belt before you go. I would have been toast if I hadn't been going to the gym.

[BryanZ]

Don't mind Divebomb. Same as you, I think he's a good guy, he just comes off wrong sometimes. I know I do too.

Glad to hear you getting after it.

So you going to something smaller? If you can find something in the 173-77ish AM, softer, easier to flex and just a tiny bit wider, I think you would have a ball.

Your Reactors don't work as step in, I don't think. And at 6'4 you might love this board after a couple outings. Nate was right on about the subtlety of it.

You'll get there.

I had a great practice when I first got on my 197 in slipping race courses heelside and toeside. Learned a bit about balance doing that.

Yeah that's about the size I'm going to be hunting for, I have to do some research on which boards are softer. I definitely like the board, it's just that I feel like the entire learning process is accomplished at 50mph. Mistakes are too painful on this board lol.

I did see a couple people on this board had 195+cm boards. I have no idea how you get down any trail that is not 300 feet wide.

[BryanZ]

one thing that I did notice a few times that I'm curious about.

When I'm going quite fast and try to do just carve on the edge....not getting low at all. It seemed like many times I would lose my balance and almost fall to my side....my body angle would get a lot lower and my board would suddenly just lock in a turn.

I couldn't duplicate it on my own, it happened on accident a few times. Scared the crap out of me as I was usually going pretty fast when it happened.

Is this flexing the board?

[ohiomoto]

I am not the expert here, but a few things that have helped me (6'3").

1. Once I get into my (carved) turns I stay very compact. The closer you keep your CM to the board, the better your balance will be. Think about making yourself as "short" as you can by flexing your ankles and knees. Don't keep you legs straight and bend at the waist.

2. Try to keep your shoulders level and angulate at the waist. This should keep your CM over the edge and help with balance.

3. Hang on tight and try not to hit anyone! (Just kidding, well, not really! lol)

4. Try to use your lower body to create angles needed to tighten up the turn radius. The more inclination you have below the waist the more the board will flex.

5. You can move your front and rear legs independent and twist the board to further manipulate the flex. For example, I find that the more I drive with my back leg towards my front leg, the more I can flex the board. But I'm begging to learn to use my back leg to increase the angle of the board and I'm finding that to be effective.

6. Practice your skids. Try popping up and pitching the board sideways. This will be your safety net if you need it.

7. Practice making short/side-to-side turns in quick succession. I use these to change my line if I see something I don't like. For example, I might be completing a toe side and decide to make 3 quick turns while traveling across the fall line before I go back into my heal side. I find this better that just going straight.

I recently found this link: http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/tech_articles.cfm

There is a ton of great stuff in there. Many of these things I learned the hard way over the years. (You don't want to do that!) Once you get better, read them again and you might find something else that you missed the first time. They have really helped me pin point areas that I need to work on.

Good Luck!

[ur13]

one thing that I did notice a few times that I'm curious about.

When I'm going quite fast and try to do just carve on the edge....not getting low at all. It seemed like many times I would lose my balance and almost fall to my side....my body angle would get a lot lower and my board would suddenly just lock in a turn.

I couldn't duplicate it on my own, it happened on accident a few times. Scared the crap out of me as I was usually going pretty fast when it happened.

Is this flexing the board?

It's been mentioned multiple times here... but that is a perfect demonstration of your board being too long (actually the sidecut being too big). What you described is a case of not having enough momentum to keep the board on edge and let it make it's arc (to the radius of the sidecut). By getting lower (I'll assume you mean almost falling over and thus bending at the hips) you load the edge and/or pressure the nose which forces the board into the arc. You'll see many intermediate alpine riders doing that even to get the board to turn because it's an easy way to initiate a turn (and comes from riding a normal snowboard often).

A shorter board with a sidecut around 8-10m (closer to a normal snowboard) will help you learn how to get the board to engage in an arc much better without having to "fall over" to do it (not a slam on you, it's just the best way to describe the technique I've seen beginners do to get long boards to turn).

The only way to fix it with the board you have is to pick up your speed but given the other things you've mentioned in this thread I wouldn't recommend you doing that for your own safety and/or everyone else around you.

Learning how to skid turn that big board will be something you can do now but could also aid in developing bad habits and hurting your knees (something it seems you already have). I wouldn't spend much time on that.

I'd check ebay or the buy-sell-trade listing here for a Burton Ultra Prime or Alp in the low 160cms (The Burton Ultra Prime 162 is what I have in mind, the one from 1999 with cap construction). That will be soft enough for you to move around, the sidecut is more reasonable compare to it's stiffness and you'll even be able to skid the thing enjoyably.

Big boards with big sidecuts are best left to advanced riders.

[ohiomoto]

To follow up with what ur13 said about the board. I'm 6'3" and well over 200lbs up to 230 right now :( ). I have a K2 Skinny 167. It's old, it's soft and it's short, but when I first got it back in 1995, it was still way too fast for me!

Now, I can make really tight/finished turns on it and keep my speeds down, but when I first started, I couldn't do that. My turns were big and fast. I'm looking for a bigger board now, but to be honest, I doubt I want anything bigger than 180 for the small hill I ride on. A shorter board might serve you well until you get more comfortable.

[lowrider]

The most obvious and simplest solution to a board sliding away while trying to hook up is a little friction.I stole this from a friend who borrowed it from another.It's so simple I should charge for it ? Don't laugh Mark! Stand on your mitt or glove . That's it ! Finished hooking up hop off, grab the glove and you are good to go . No need to look like a kid in soft boots dragging your soggy butt around because of wet spring conditions. Look professional your a hard booter now!

[carvedog]

The most obvious and simplest solution to a board sliding away while trying to hook up is a little friction.I stole this from a friend who borrowed it from another.It's so simple I should charge for it ? Don't laugh Mark! Stand on your mitt or glove . That's it ! Finished hooking up hop off, grab the glove and you are good to go . No need to look like a kid in soft boots dragging your soggy butt around because of wet spring conditions. Look professional your a hard booter now!

Good God, there for a minute I thought you were talking about turns. I had to read it twice before I got it. Ok.

I have never had to stand on my glove to accomplish this, but it would work.

One thing about turning long boards is you have to start early. If you get it going down the hill mach looney and then redirect that energy to the side you can definitely cause double pants crapping.

I have been pounding this for the last couple of years too. When in doubt. Retract. Bumps. Retract. Hooked up and don't want to be. Retract. Ice. Same thing.

And by this I mean quickly pulling your feet towards your butt. But if you don't stand tall(er) at some point you have no place to retract to. Hence the idea of movement up and down, weighting and unweighting in a rhythm.

YOu can turn just by using board rebound and very little retraction, one way is passive the other active. I like driving the bus.

[BryanZ]

Good God, there for a minute I thought you were talking about turns. I had to read it twice before I got it. Ok.

I have never had to stand on my glove to accomplish this, but it would work.

One thing about turning long boards is you have to start early. If you get it going down the hill mach looney and then redirect that energy to the side you can definitely cause double pants crapping.

I have been pounding this for the last couple of years too. When in doubt. Retract. Bumps. Retract. Hooked up and don't want to be. Retract. Ice. Same thing.

And by this I mean quickly pulling your feet towards your butt. But if you don't stand tall(er) at some point you have no place to retract to. Hence the idea of movement up and down, weighting and unweighting in a rhythm.

YOu can turn just by using board rebound and very little retraction, one way is passive the other active. I like driving the bus.

yes I am being way too passive on my board, that board was definitely taking me for a ride.

By weighting and unweighting, do you mean like unweighting the board at the start and end of a turn and weighting the board hard in order flex it?

[queequeg]

Glad you're hooked! Have fun with it!

I'll add to the chorus of voices in this thread suggesting you get a much shorter board with a much shorter SCR. 16m is not even remotely appropriate for a beginner, particularly on the east coast where the trails are narrow. Put that board in the closet and save it for the day you have the skills to handle it safely, at this stage in your carving career it will not permit you the margin of error required to learn correct technique.

[NateW]

I thought about doing this...

I think the problem is that I haven't learn to "flex" my board as you guys call it. I was letting the edge control my turn radius. A when I'm letting the edge control, 16 meters radius makes a 105 foot circle...And that is what it felt like on the slope. Needless to say I spent most of the day stratching my head on how in the hell you guys make S turns. Mid-day I concluded that it was because of my GS board and I quit trying. I guess not...I definatly have to work on making tighter turns.

When you ride faster, you can lean in farther.

When you lean in farther, the board turns tighter.

In other words, what UR13 considers "too much sidecut radius" I consider "not enough speed." :)

This is not a great set of tradeoffs to be learning with. Going faster on a board you're still struggling to control kinda sounds like a recipe for pain. You should probably stay with more moderate speeds (and wider runs) unless there's nobody around.

That board is going to need quite a bit of room even when you're riding in its "happy speeds," but I suspect that you'll only need half as much space after you get used to how it turns with twice the inclination.

FWIW, I never consciously flex the board to change the carve radius. The sidecut does a good enough job by itself, IMO.

[Petrol]

I'm probably the minority here...but I wouldn't rush to get step-in bindings. Don't get me wrong, they're nice...but in my opinion there are certain benefits to toe bails too.

Once you get used to toe bails, you'll be able to step in quickly, and effortlessly reach down and flip the toe bail with one hand and be on your way. They're really not as much of a pain as some people make them out to be.

Plus with toe bails, you don't have to deal with handles sticking out of your boots and having your heel plates ice up (in those conditions).

Scott

unless I develop a serious beer gut, I can't imagine my needing step-ins

[Coloradoking]

DONE.

Good luck in the ER/or with the DA, as the case maybe

come on divebomber... this sport is small enough as it is without you chewing out someone who's just getting into it....

[Coloradoking]

oh by the way bryanz, ive got 170 GS and 153 SL nideckers that need a good home. they've been sitting in my basement for about a year now and they're dying to have the storage wax scraped off.

[carvedog]

yes I am being way too passive on my board, that board was definitely taking me for a ride.

By weighting and unweighting, do you mean like unweighting the board at the start and end of a turn and weighting the board hard in order flex it?

The unweighting and unweighting has to do more with turn initiation than flexing the board. An easier turn initiation means you can get to your new edge quicker and start slowing down sooner, if that is what you want to do. Recommended at this point.

This was a little bit of a counterpoint to those who recommend getting low and staying low. Doing that takes away your suspension. If you get tall or more upright at some point then you have some place to "sink" to. Sinking or retraction makes the board lighter and easier to move from one edge to another.

In an elevator when it starts dropping you feel lighter. The same with the board. At this point ( even though you weight the same ) there is less measurable weight on the edge so it is easier to flatten and tip to the new edge. The other way is right as the elevator stops at the top floor you feel lighter for a second. The snowboard correlation is when you stand tall, at the top of that standing tall your momentum carries you ever so slightly higher and the board becomes light for a second as well. Again an easier time to initiate the turn. I prefer the first method as it can be quicker and more controllable. The stand tall to turn I use more for beginners if they can't get the first one.

Good to have both methods down and know how to consciously change between the two as you go down the hill.

[Dave ESPI]

Bryan, you have a good bit of weight on me, and that board is a blast in sure! I know EXACTLY how you feel on it as I got myself in the same situation with a rossignol WC 190 (see the FRIGHTTRAIN thead I posted).

Every board is different, and needs a different technique to ride it.

AND THEN SOME.... WELL WE JUST CANT TAME. LOL

Try to not ride it like a fighter jet but more like a leer jet. Swoopy long turns will make it feel great under your feet.

I had the same problem with running out of trail with a big stiff board.

Perhaps somethign in a 166 area would be better suited for you to start to trench around on with a smaller hill :)

Going from softboot stances and body movements to HB setups is quite a bit different. I was a mess this past week with form, but I fixed it and now ride the carver like a BX racer, and Im ripping again :)

Im sure you too will be soon enough :)

[ohiomoto]

The unweighting and unweighting has to do more with turn initiation than flexing the board. An easier turn initiation means you can get to your new edge quicker and start slowing down sooner, if that is what you want to do. Recommended at this point.

This was a little bit of a counterpoint to those who recommend getting low and staying low. Doing that takes away your suspension. If you get tall or more upright at some point then you have some place to "sink" to. Sinking or retraction makes the board lighter and easier to move from one edge to another.

I guess I should clarify. I'm not suggesting to lock into the lowest possible stance and park it. I do ride with flexion and extension as well as up-unweighting (pulling the board up to unweight) through my transitions. When I said to stay low, I simply mean keep the CM close to the board. If you extend or stand tall throughout the turn, you are more likely to lose your balance and fall to the inside of the turn. This would be especially true at slower speeds. The taller you are, the further your CM will be from the board. The further the CM is from the board, the easier it is to lose your balance.

This has worked for me, but I like I said, I'm not the expert here.

[carvedog]

I guess I should clarify. I'm not suggesting to lock into the lowest possible stance and park it. I do ride with flexion and extension as well as up-unweighting (pulling the board up to unweight) through my transitions. When I said to stay low, I simply mean keep the CM close to the board. If you extend or stand tall throughout the turn, you are more likely to lose your balance and fall to the inside of the turn. This would be especially true at slower speeds. The taller you are, the further your CM will be from the board. The further the CM is from the board, the easier it is to lose your balance.

This has worked for me, but I like I said, I'm not the expert here.

Glad we could clarify. Movement is good. Parking is not so much.

Guess I read it as "stay low".

[Chubz]

Bryan

sorry i missed your session last satruday, we had a full day on Fridays BMES. Another one lined up for the 13th at Blue and then JBS and I should be out Sat and Sun getting some turns in.

check out the pics from Friday. Scroll down

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24646&page=2

Hope to see you out and we would be more than happy to give you some pointers if youre out.

Later

Greg