BX soft-boot angles

[Kex]

twelsh - Catek FR2s are good for carving, but they're pretty rough on me when i start jumping with them, probably why they're not used for SBX, i dunno. they're pretty stiff and rigid. probably the same reason why TD2s weren't really used on the racing scene either - TD3s are getting more attention though with that huge elastomer shock absorber.

Kex, risers are used on skateboards too, not only for wheelbite but also to increase leverage.

Also, your figure is wrong in that you're treating the snowboard as a first class lever. it's not. it's a third class lever. your fulcrum isn't at the center of the board. it's at the edge of the board, the edge not in contact with the snow. your force comes from the center of the board, and the load is the other edge, the one that's in contact with the snow.

it's actually a combination of levers. picture an upside down "T" the horizontal part is the board, and the vertical part is the riser/binding interface (you at the end of it).

based on how you've made your diagram (a first class lever), in order to put more force into the edge in contact with the snow, you need to PULL up on the edge not in contact with the snow in order to push the other edge down into the snow, while you at the center are the fulcrum... or, if you put it the other way, where you push down on the edge in contact with the snow, then you don't have a lever at all anymore... you can't have your load, fulcrum, AND effort all in the same spot - that's not a lever...

if your force is into the snow, and your fulcrum is the center of the board, then you're technically doing work on the edge that up in the air and applying force on the air...

i might be completely wrong, and probably am. hell, i'm and idiot, i'm talking snowboard theory and jargon here - i should be out riding instead...

i'm sure someone with real knowledge will set us straight. they'll tell us that we're both idiots and that we're both wrong. haha

I guess I should have specified. my diagram is taking into account only the forces exerted onto the board with initial foot angulation, and is not modeling a lever. If you are speaking of a lever, then the fulcrum of the lever is on the edge of the board where it is touching the snow, and you have your forces of gravity trying to pull one way on the lever while momentum keeps you from falling.

My model is just a sum of the initial forces as you initiate a turn. The sum of the forces causes the axis of rotation to be in a location different than the edge of the board. Since your board cannot freely pivot, and is limited by the plane of the snow, it will instead go onto edge.

sorry I didnt specify that, though I am sure I will get flamed either way. I do maintain though, that risers do not give you increased leverage.

[xy9ine]

i didn't notice risers on any of the podiums @ the cypress wc bx; is it a course specific hardware choice?

looking at the huge berms on the course (and subsequent lack of edge angles / need for carving ability), i think it'd be neat to throw some fast flat turns in the courses - to see hardboots back on the course, and the different styles mixing it up again.

[philfell]

Kex there is more than one lever on a snowboard. The high back is a lever, when you push against the high back this levers the board on edge. The further away from the fulcrom (ie edge in this case) the more "leverage" you have. Plates do this, same is true for toeside, but the lever is a bit more complicated.

As far as guys using Burton bindings, most everyone purchases theirs, not many get them for free. Guys use these instead of the cateks for pretty much the same reason the racers us F2's instead of TD2's.

And Cindy are you trying to say that Lindsay is a lesbian??? If so this is so not true.

[philfell]

After some thinking about this imangine this:

Screw a one inch high "L" bracket on top of your board near the edge. Now try to tilt the board on edge using this "L" bracket, it would require quite a bit of effort. Now screw this same "L" bracket on a riser plate, it would now be easier to put the board on edge because although you are using the same size bracket you have increased you "LEVERAGE".

Does this jive with your science class?

[D.T.]

your FBD is wrong - therefore the rest of your analysis is based on flawed logic.

[Rob Stevens]

looking at the huge berms on the course (and subsequent lack of edge angles / need for carving ability), i think it'd be neat to throw some fast flat turns in the courses.

A pretty common misconception.

Carving is not easier with low edge angles, it's actually harder as the rider must actively steer more to keep the tail following the nose. At high edge angles, the sidecut is locked in and practically carves itself.

As for the other argument, risers will not pressure the edge more, but they will allow you to tip the board over with less effort. This can be both good and bad, depending on your abilty to retain your balance. Experts can stay standing up better than most, so the benefits to them outweigh any intermediate riders negative observations.

[bobdea]

There are such better bindings - Is this a sponsorship thing? Why is nobody riding the FR2's?

if I were racing BX I'm not sure I'd use my FR2s, friggin heavy and stiff.

Burton makes sense for three reasons in my head but I am guessing

1 light

2 forgiving without slop

3 some people might be actually burton riders....

Have you ridden said bindings?

I like the high end burton bindings.............

[twelsch42]

if I were racing BX I'm not sure I'd use my FR2s, friggin heavy and stiff.

Burton makes sense for three reasons in my head but I am guessing

1 light

2 forgiving without slop

3 some people might be actually burton riders....

Have you ridden said bindings?

I like the high end burton bindings.............

I've ridden Cartels from 2 years ago...I figured all burton plastic bindings were the same. :D

[WinterGold]

We are not talking Hangle plates or vist plates.

The Palmer plates are made for soft boots and YES most of the top guys on the World Cup are on them. They are pretty much considered standard SBX equipment.

Since you are so in tune with the FISSNOWBOARDWORLDCUP.com site watch the Sunday River World cup videos, Graham is on Palmer Plates as Ross is also on a riser plate system. Bobby Minghini who placed 8th is on Palmer plates. Pretty much all the US Team that I know of are on the plates except for some of the girls.

I know that we are not talking about Vist, etc.

Ok, there are some riders using plates, but a MUST??? The top rider in the SBX this season does not use a plate as well as many other top riders. So how can it be a must?

I hope I didn´t come across as if I am an expert. I´m just curious as to what setup the pros ride. And plates do change the board feeling considerably - some like it and some don´t, as it seems ...

[philfell]

Your right the guy leading the WC rankings is not riding plates, but like I said pretty much the entire US team, which consist of 10 people in the top 30 in the WC, as well as many others do.

Not saying they are a must, but they are used widely enough to give them a try to see if they work for you.

[twelsch42]

As for the other argument, risers will not pressure the edge more, but they will allow you to tip the board over with less effort. This can be both good and bad, depending on your abilty to retain your balance.

This is what I have noticed. I usually like to ride with alot of rise out of my FR2's - my edge changes feel lightning fast. When I go back to a flat binding (older cartels) it feels like I have to get my body way into a turn before my edges will grab. Without a lot of rise it seems like your upper body can be much more active without affecting your edges as much. When you're getting lots of air and negotioating 5 other riders this is probably a good thing.

T

edit: upon reflection, I may be comparing apples to oranges here and might not know what I'm talking about.

[bobdea]

I've ridden Cartels from 2 years ago...I figured all burton plastic bindings were the same. :D

cartels are sort of a different animal. those are based on a much older design and offer a different feel.

[Gtanner]

As for the other argument, risers will not pressure the edge more, but they will allow you to tip the board over with less effort. This can be both good and bad, depending on your abilty to retain your balance. Experts can stay standing up better than most, so the benefits to them outweigh any intermediate riders negative observations.

THis is what I was referring to, thank Rob. Less effort to get on edge and less anglulation required to move your center of gravity out over said edge.

I use the Burton Elevators and have a dampening pad on my TechNine bindings, so although it's not quite as good as the palmer plates, they work fine for my needs.

-Gord

[xy9ine]

A pretty common misconception...

not what i insinuated. simply that because the corners are all bermed, there's no need for carving gear to haul through them. toss in some flat turns & alpine hardware might become more relevant. or not. last time i watched harbooters in bx, they all looked pretty spastic in the air.

[Kex]

Kex there is more than one lever on a snowboard. The high back is a lever, when you push against the high back this levers the board on edge. The further away from the fulcrom (ie edge in this case) the more "leverage" you have. Plates do this, same is true for toeside, but the lever is a bit more complicated.

As far as guys using Burton bindings, most everyone purchases theirs, not many get them for free. Guys use these instead of the cateks for pretty much the same reason the racers us F2's instead of TD2's.

And Cindy are you trying to say that Lindsay is a lesbian??? If so this is so not true.

yes, there is more than one lever, in fact there are many forces being exerted on many different locations. My diagram is illustrating one particular aspect of the forces exerted.

With your example, you are correct in saying that the further from the fulcrum you are, the more leverage you have, but you are forgetting one thing. As you yourself said, the edge is the fulcrum. this is exactly why risers offer no more power to your edge. a longer lever does not effect the fulcrum at all. it effects the load your are exerting force against.

Anyway, if you want to continue convincing yourself that risers increase the power to your edges, that's fine with me, but they really dont add any more power. they are used for the other benefits they present. Im not going to continue trying to argue with people that dont listen to reason, so in summary: if they did increase power, you would see people riding on 6 inch plus risers. they obviously do not, and if you are unconvinced, try making your own 6 inch risers and see how much power you can add.

[NateW]

not what i insinuated. simply that because the corners are all bermed, there's no need for carving gear to haul through them. toss in some flat turns & alpine hardware might become more relevant. or not. last time i watched harbooters in bx, they all looked pretty spastic in the air.

If they took out the berms, soft boots would be about as competitive as they are in GS, which is to say, they'd disappear. Seems to me that the whole point of those berms is to produce a form of racing that the other 99% of the snowboard community can relate to.

[gdboytyler]

I've ridden Cartels from 2 years ago...I figured all burton plastic bindings were the same. :D

For the past 7+ years, I've been using Flow bindings for my softboot setup. The older strap bindings killed my feet. But because of Phil's info in past posts about the pro BX racers using Burton C60's and very positve BOL reviews on the C60 (mainly from bobdea), I decided to try out the C60's this season.

Without a doubt, the Burton C60's are the best performing, most comfy softboot bindings I've ever tried.

[pan]

I was at SBX in Cypress and Stoneham. I've seen most top riders are in freestyle/freeriding setting (-5 to +5 rar, +15 to +20 front) and most of them are on palmer riser.

[Flash]

Guys:

You should check out Ride's CAD bindings. They have a platform built into the base that allows for lift and canting. Not trying to flame Burton, but the Rides are definitely much sturdier construction as well and the toe-cap mechanism is excellent.

I rode C60s for a few years...the Rides are far superior.

Just my 2 cents.

Flash

[bobdea]

Guys:

You should check out Ride's CAD bindings. They have a platform built into the base that allows for lift and canting. Not trying to flame Burton, but the Rides are definitely much sturdier construction as well and the toe-cap mechanism is excellent.

I rode C60s for a few years...the Rides are far superior.

Just my 2 cents.

Flash

I like ride bindings as well. There's a ton of great options when it comes to softboot bindings depending on what you need and want. Ride is a good intermediate between burton and mega burly stuff like catek.

[philfell]

yes, there is more than one lever, in fact there are many forces being exerted on many different locations. My diagram is illustrating one particular aspect of the forces exerted.

With your example, you are correct in saying that the further from the fulcrum you are, the more leverage you have, but you are forgetting one thing. As you yourself said, the edge is the fulcrum. this is exactly why risers offer no more power to your edge. a longer lever does not effect the fulcrum at all. it effects the load your are exerting force against.

Anyway, if you want to continue convincing yourself that risers increase the power to your edges, that's fine with me, but they really dont add any more power. they are used for the other benefits they present. Im not going to continue trying to argue with people that dont listen to reason, so in summary: if they did increase power, you would see people riding on 6 inch plus risers. they obviously do not, and if you are unconvinced, try making your own 6 inch risers and see how much power you can add.

Now you are changing the wording around to suit your argument. I never said anything about an increase in "power" or "Pressure". I just backed up the fact that risers increase leverage when you were making statements that said that they could not increase "LEVERAGE".

Again here is a quote from you: " I do maintain though, that risers do not give you increased leverage" and then you say this: "With your example, you are correct in saying that the further from the fulcrum you are, the more leverage you have, but you are forgetting one thing."

And you are trying to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

[philfell]

Guys:

You should check out Ride's CAD bindings. They have a platform built into the base that allows for lift and canting. Not trying to flame Burton, but the Rides are definitely much sturdier construction as well and the toe-cap mechanism is excellent.

I rode C60s for a few years...the Rides are far superior.

Just my 2 cents.

Flash

I'm just stating what is being used the most by the World Cup riders. I'm not trying to sell anyone on the Burton C60's

[svr]

Now that I have a few days on all of the above, I must say that I am very impressed by the force MC's and they would be my recommendation to anyone looking for a lightweight, responsive freeride binding. The C60's are over rated and overpriced IMO and the Rides are really good, but I am very impressed by the Union's and anyone considering the other models should give them a try. I am not impressed by how heavy the rest of the Union line is, but the Force-MC is the lightest strap binding available on the market today.

Also, I am not a serious bx-er, but I found that the palmer plates did not really help me for racing (size 10.5/28.8) and if I was still competing I would not use them, and the Cateks are nice for their adjustability, but I will sacrifice that for weight as they are just too damn heavy. Just my $.02.

cheers,

sandy

[MUD]

Hey SVR,

Any feeling on the durability for the Union's? Coming from many years of binding breaking, they seem a little too light....... I know this doesn't mean anything, but you know what I mean. I go about 200 lbs for reference.

[Kex]

Now you are changing the wording around to suit your argument. I never said anything about an increase in "power" or "Pressure". I just backed up the fact that risers increase leverage when you were making statements that said that they could not increase "LEVERAGE".

Again here is a quote from you: " I do maintain though, that risers do not give you increased leverage" and then you say this: "With your example, you are correct in saying that the further from the fulcrum you are, the more leverage you have, but you are forgetting one thing."

And you are trying to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

I guess i dont know what you are trying to say then. I assumed people were talking about using a larger lever to increase the power transferred to their edges. Along those lines I am saying that risers will not help you. you are just saying "leverage" without specifying what you are levering. care to tell me what it is these risers are helping you to "lever"? if you are just talking about ease of getting on edge, then yes, risers help you, but only because they raise your center of gravity higher off the ground.