philfell Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 I'm just stating that they improve leverage. You were just falsly stating that there is no way that they do actually increase leverage, I was trying to show you that they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svr Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Hey SVR,Any feeling on the durability for the Union's? Coming from many years of binding breaking, they seem a little too light....... I know this doesn't mean anything, but you know what I mean. I go about 200 lbs for reference. Yes, I am worried about that as well, but I am 210lbs and after three really hard days of riding them, I have taken them off and inspected them and no problems as of yet...I worry about it so much that I bring an extra set of bindings with me every time I go ride. Union does offer a lifetime warranty on the base of the bindings as well so we will see and up to now they have not had any warranty claims on the baseplates of any of their bindings. cheers, sandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Yes, I am worried about that as well, but I am 210lbs and after three really hard days of riding them, I have taken them off and inspected them and no problems as of yet...I worry about it so much that I bring an extra set of bindings with me every time I go ride. Union does offer a lifetime warranty on the base of the bindings as well so we will see and up to now they have not had any warranty claims on the baseplates of any of their bindings.cheers, sandy Cool. Thanks for the info Sandy.... I may give these a try if I don't like my Cateks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Hey Phil; Do some of the bigger racers use the new C60's with the forward lean adjustment built as a wedge in the split highback? I took those bindings off afer one day, as they felt almost as flexy as Burtons plastic offerings from the C14 - 16 era. The addition of the mesh in the highback didn't seem to help either. If I used bindings in powder, I suppose they'd be on that board, but seeing as I don't, they're back in their box for now. On the other topic... My last obeservation about risers is this: The initiating of movement from a flat base feels just as hard to start as without them. However, once the edging movement has started, it is easier to flow through. It was this sensation that I could see creating instability in riders still developing skills. A great deal of resistance is eliminated when progressing through a range of edge angles in a turn, reducing feedback. Once again, it felt like it took the same force to start the process, but once it was going, the efforts seemed to be made easier. I wasn't getting any fatter through the turn, though, so I suppose any increase in pressure would have to be realtive to turn shape, edge angle and speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 More of the guys are on CO2's than the C60's. It's so individual though. I got on Bobby Minghini's board for a run and couldn't beleive how little forward lean he was running, I could barely ride the board, but it works for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newcarver Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 On the subject of riser: They will raise your center of gravity some which will make it easier to go edge to edge. Basically the same principles that are applied to car handling. Lower center of gravity and roll center = more cornering stability (less corner roll). Raise the center of gravity and it will roll over more in the corners (makes it easier to roll over too). I don't think it actually results in more weight transfer to the edges, just easier transfer. Might be all wrong on this but this is how I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiveBomber Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Im working on my soft boot "style" HB set up, on a couple of my BX boards...probably try it out tomorrow or wed. Right now have the rear at 21 and the front at 42(might try one notch back at 39) guess it just depends on the conditions and the course. my 225W board im running 57-60 front and 42-48 rear(7deg cant) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Don't take this the wrong way, but are you racing with that set-up and if so at what level? Or are you just riding for fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kex Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 I'm just stating that they improve leverage. You were just falsly stating that there is no way that they do actually increase leverage, I was trying to show you that they do. leverage for what? you have not mentioned what you are trying to lever. also, after considering your analogy to highbacks, I think it is false anyway. with highbacks, the force of you trying to pivot on your heels is what is transferred to them. that puts the fulcrum at heel level, not edge level, meaning the riser does not help at all. On the other hand, a longer highback would help, but then its easier to get caught on a lift while hopping on, which brings up a new problem. As I said earlier, risers will raise your center of gravity, making it easier to fall over and therefore get low, but there is no "leverage: increas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 I guess you either get it at this point or you don't. And you are in the latter. Read what Rob has said, he has summed it up well enough. Also go through and read all of your post one after another, you may find out something about yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Im working on my soft boot "style" HB set up, on a couple of my BX boards...probably try it out tomorrow or wed.Right now have the rear at 21 and the front at 42(might try one notch back at 39) guess it just depends on the conditions and the course. my 225W board im running 57-60 front and 42-48 rear(7deg cant) 20 degrees of splay? why? well, there's a lot to be said about those angles in hard boots. I suggest just getting softboots learning to ride in them. okay, a rant is going to begin and I am not targeting you specifically but you are included in it. Why are so many people here so hell bent on reinventing the wheel by trying to make hard boots work on boards or with angles they were never intended to? WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH LEARNING TO RIDE SOFTBOOTS FOR SOFTBOOT SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS??? I have a suspicion that the people here that say "ohh, I want to ride hardboots for BX" have not done it it on both types of gear or even tried it with other people on a course with them. It's brutal with hard boots. Even alone, without somebody riding over the tail of your board, sucking up hard landings or landings where you're not centered in hardboots is 1, harder 2, more dangerous. Why is it that some people can't understand that stiffness does not always help you to carve or even to go fast, nevermind to do any sort of all mountain riding? Don't get me wrong, I am a Alpine evangelist but I see so much of it on this forum and if you guys would take the time and advice and set up a proper softboot setup for certain things it would save you all a bunch of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kex Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 I guess you either get it at this point or you don't. And you are in the latter. Read what Rob has said, he has summed it up well enough. Also go through and read all of your post one after another, you may find out something about yourself. what he says supports exactly what I'm saying "The initiating of movement from a flat base feels just as hard to start as without them" this means there is no more leverage... and what he follows with, supports what I said about raising your center of gravity. So... thanks for telling me to read something that supports what I said. I've ridden the same board with and without risers and there is no difference in leverage. So I believe that in fact, you have it backwards. I get it and you dont. As for what you said about my posting, its something I already know: I spend waaay too much time trying to educate people that dont want to be educated, and dont listen to reason. Sorry about that, I wont try to teach you anymore. I wish you the best! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 So I believe that in fact, you have it backwards. I get it and you dont.As for what you said about my posting, its something I already know: I spend waaay too much time trying to educate people that dont want to be educated, and dont listen to reason. Sorry about that, I wont try to teach you anymore. I wish you the best! Kex, seriously dude. Do you know who Phil Fell is? I will give you hint. He is not some average joe carver on BOL. I am going to go ahead and spell it out for you: USSA 2008 Domestic Snowboard Coach of the Year - Phil Fell USSA 2008 Snowboard Program of the Year - PCSBT That means that he was the USSA USA coach of the year. That is due to his skill as an alpine snowboard racing coach. PCSBT is the Park City Snowboard Team and Phil was head of it in 2008 when it was given the honor of being the Program of the Year. This may be the internet and there may be some cloak of anonymity, but philfell is Phil Fell and he deserves to be treated with a tremendous amount of respect. Thanks, Buell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiveBomber Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Don't take this the wrong way, but are you racing with that set-up and if so at what level? Or are you just riding for fun. Yes, Open class Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullwings Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Don't waste your time... this is the same guy that thinks that a well tuned board is unneccessary... http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24269&highlight=tuning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiveBomber Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 20 degrees of splay?why? actually if you do the math its more like 9-12 well, there's a lot to be said about those angles in hard boots. I suggest just getting softboots learning to ride in them. I have soft boots, I dont like riding in them okay, a rant is going to begin and I am not targeting you specifically but you are included in it. Why are so many people here so hell bent on reinventing the wheel by trying to make hard boots work on boards or with angles they were never intended to? WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH LEARNING TO RIDE SOFTBOOTS FOR SOFTBOOT SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS??? I have a suspicion that the people here that say "ohh, I want to ride hardboots for BX" have not done it it on both types of gear or even tried it with other people on a course with them. It's brutal with hard boots. Even alone, without somebody riding over the tail of your board, sucking up hard landings or landings where you're not centered in hardboots is 1, harder 2, more dangerous. Brutal? I wouldnt say that, I do ok with my set up, I run through the park almost every run an can handle most things on the mtn, I can suck up bumps just fine, pump, jump, land switch, etc.. soft boots feel much worse to me, I dont like the riding style and position and I like narrower boards Why is it that some people can't understand that stiffness does not always help you to carve or even to go fast, nevermind to do any sort of all mountain riding? My soft HB set up its about the same as my Softboot set up as far as stiffness, but I get much more support, and I get enough lateral flex too, I can do nose grabs and slashes easy with it. Don't get me wrong, I am a Alpine evangelist but I see so much of it on this forum and if you guys would take the time and advice and set up a proper softboot setup for certain things it would save you all a bunch of time. works for me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kex Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Kex, seriously dude. Do you know who Phil Fell is? I will give you hint. He is not some average joe carver on BOL.I am going to go ahead and spell it out for you: USSA 2008 Domestic Snowboard Coach of the Year - Phil Fell USSA 2008 Snowboard Program of the Year - PCSBT That means that he was the USSA USA coach of the year. That is due to his skill as an alpine snowboard racing coach. PCSBT is the Park City Snowboard Team and Phil was head of it in 2008 when it was given the honor of being the Program of the Year. This may be the internet and there may be some cloak of anonymity, but philfell is Phil Fell and he deserves to be treated with a tremendous amount of respect. Thanks, Buell I'm not trying to disrespect him, my hats off to him for being coach of the year, thats an accomplishment to be proud of. It does not however make him an expert in physics. Sorry that I'm trying to explain how forces and torque work to a snowboard coach, I guess I should be flamed for trying to do that. Anyway, as I said, I'm done trying to teach those that dont want to be taught, and I'm not going to try anymore. apparently being coach of the year means you are always right and dont have to even try to listen to what others say Don't waste your time... this is the same guy that thinks that a well tuned board is unneccessary...http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24269&highlight=tuning gasp! someone with an opinion on a forum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 It does not however make him an expert in physics. Actually, I am pretty sure that it does make him an expert in the physics of how to make a snowboard work well and go fast. This is not some theoretical classroom thing for Phil. This is what he lives. Glad to hear that you are done educating the experts, because you have a lot to learn. Buell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kex Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Actually, I am pretty sure that it does make him an expert in the physics of how to make a snowboard work well and go fast. This is not some theoretical classroom thing for Phil. This is what he lives.Glad to hear that you are done educating the experts, because you have a lot to learn. Buell then I take it you believe that risers increase "leverage" too? If so, you both need to go take a physics course. anyway, I'm done trying to defend or explain myself or correct physics. Please continue to flame, I wont reply again. I'll just laugh like I have been doing this whole time. It never ceases to amaze me what people will believe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 works for me... hey, you said "Right now have the rear at 21 and the front at 42" 42-21=21 this info comes from what you posted. you don't like riding them because you either 1, don't have the skills or are refusing to learn or 2 have not set up your softboot setup properly. seems like both. yeah, brutal. I have ridden both types of gear quite a bit. there's a reason why no one rides pipe on plates if they plan to compete. same reason many of the people who ride plates for PGS ride softboots for BX. you say you can handle most things on the mountain with your setup. If you can't charge everything within the boundaries of where you ride on your setup you probably should not be anywhere near BX course. If not for your own safety then for the poor sap who has to navigate around your carcass when you eat ****. I have no idea why you'd want to do this other than a lack of common sense. BTW Damian Sanders dropped the hardboots as well.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 It never ceases to amaze me what people will believe Like how much they know at 21? :rolleyes: then I take it you believe that risers increase "leverage" too? If so, you both need to go take a physics course. I have not actually given it any thought and I haven't said a thing about it. Interesting way to jump to a conclusion though. Take care, Buell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Don't waste your time... this is the same guy that thinks that a well tuned board is unneccessary...http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24269&highlight=tuning Thanks Bullwings. I guess I missed participating in that gem. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiveBomber Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 hey, you said "Right now have the rear at 21 and the front at 42"42-21=21 this info comes from what you posted. you don't like riding them because you either 1, don't have the skills or are refusing to learn or 2 have not set up your softboot setup properly. seems like both. yeah, brutal. I have ridden both types of gear quite a bit. there's a reason why no one rides pipe on plates if they plan to compete. same reason many of the people who ride plates for PGS ride softboots for BX. you say you can handle most things on the mountain with your setup. If you can't charge everything within the boundaries of where you ride on your setup you probably should not be anywhere near BX course. If not for your own safety then for the poor sap who has to navigate around your carcass when you eat ****. I have no idea why you'd want to do this other than a lack of common sense. BTW Damian Sanders dropped the hardboots as well.......... Oh yeah, I guess you got me there, only read the last part of the msg of mine that you quoted, But heck on my soft boots im at 36&12=24, So whats the difference?? If im going for a more soft boot style of riding, with a wider board?? I dont think you speak from that much experince, and you certainly don't know how I ride/feel. and I feel more comfortable on plates, and Im not the only one Sanders was about freestyling, he rode with the top buckle loose, that really doesnt translate in anyway... why do I even say anything... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 20 degrees of splay is quite a bit, it MAY work for you but that would indicate you're special. In softboots that's even high but not unheard of, if you ride duck. I don't know of any riders I'd consider good running that amount of splay in hardboots. If you have not already figured out why that does not work for most people I'm not sure anyone could explain it to you. I do know a bunch of guys around 15 in the front and a few negative in the back in softies. Totally different thing going on with that though. ever notice how long hard boots are? or how they don't work as well at low angles, even the super soft ones? You might not think I speak from experience but the fact is even if I am not I still have more figured out than you. I've taken the time to listen to people who know and used my own observations. I was like you a couple years into this, had wacky ideas and thought I knew everything. I'm still a dick but a much more humble one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Why are so many people here so hell bent on reinventing the wheel by trying to make hard boots work on boards or with angles they were never intended to? WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH LEARNING TO RIDE SOFTBOOTS FOR SOFTBOOT SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS??? It doesn't matter to me what hard boots were intended for. What does matter is that I enjoy them more than I enjoyed soft boots, even though I spend most of my time in the terrain park, and before they started making terrain parks I was planning every run around where the best natural jumps were, in hard boots. I've never done BX, and I'm in no big hurry to, but it looks fun... if I ever do it, I will be in hard boots. It's brutal with hard boots. Even alone, without somebody riding over the tail of your board, sucking up hard landings or landings where you're not centered in hardboots is 1, harder 2, more dangerous. How many season did you spend hitting jumps in terrain parks before you came to that conclusion? Why is it that some people can't understand that stiffness does not always help you to carve or even to go fast, nevermind to do any sort of all mountain riding? I dunno, but maybe you can answer me this: why is it that some people can't understand that some other people have ridden hard and soft extensively and found that hard boots work better for them, for carving AND for hitting jumps and bump inside and outside the terrain park? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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