What's most important?

[photodad2001]

What's the most important thing you look for when choosing an EC snowboard?

I chose edge contact. I know it's the combination of everything that makes the board, just wanted to know what everyone thought was the one thing that there could be no comprimising on. In addition, what would you say is the least important. If you could only have 4 of the 5 things what would not make the list?

[Istvan]

My 2 cents:

- waist width above 21-22 cm to allow for lower angles

- long effective edge (don't go crazy with 200cm+ boards, a 175 will do)

- radius around 13-14 m to allow for long bodyslides (a shorter radius board wil turn too fast under you)

- forgiving nature (no huge camber, soft flex, titanal if possible)

And of course, you can do fully laid, linked turns on anything. It is just easier on such a board.

But there is no free lunch, you'll pay the price when it comes to different conditions, like less steep, crowded slopes.

Best

[KingCrimson]

What's the most important thing you look for when choosing an EC snowboard?

I chose edge contact. I know it's the combination of everything that makes the board, just wanted to know what everyone thought was the one thing that there could be no comprimising on. In addition, what would you say is the least important. If you could only have 4 of the 5 things what would not make the list?

How do you know what you like in an EC snowboard? If I recall, you have an Alp. Also, I think edge hold would be better than edge contact, think of a Madd 158, which supposedly has insane edge hold. Even then, it's a bit of a moot point, because if I get sloppy, even the super fancy coiler slides around.

[Jack M]

This is kind of like asking who do you like better, your mom or dad, but if you hold all variables constant between two boards and vary only one at a time, the biggest difference will be sidecut radius followed closely by stiffness. Actually it's probably a tie, but if I can only vote for one it's radius.

[tex1230]

CAMBER!!!

(gotcha)

I'm with Jack - if you have to pick one, it's sidecut radius.

[photodad2001]

How do you know what you like in an EC snowboard? If I recall, you have an Alp. Also, I think edge hold would be better than edge contact, think of a Madd 158, which supposedly has insane edge hold. Even then, it's a bit of a moot point, because if I get sloppy, even the super fancy coiler slides around.

Yes I own an Alp. I also have over 20 years experience on a snowboard, was an instructor from 89-93, and carve on whatever board I'm on. My experience tells me longer is better so I chose edge contact. Keep in mind I've only riden boards between 145 and 172.

[philfell]

I go with Flex. All other deminsons are useless if the board is too stiff or too soft.

[LeeW]

I'm sidecut-oriented (I personally like 8 for any 157 to 158 length), but Phil Fell's got it dialed in with stiffness. That alone does make a huge difference.

[photodad2001]

CAMBER!!!

(gotcha)

I'm with Jack - if you have to pick one, it's sidecut radius.

Looking at the specs on EC boards it seems different companies don't agree on what the radius should be. I personally have never riden anything more than 11, no surprise to you I'm sure. Swoard seems to keep the radius pretty close to the same on all of their boards, Coiler has a wide spectrum, and Prior seems to be on the smaller end especially with their ATV and 4wd. Would you say that SR is strictly a personal preference to riding style, or are there other factors you should consider?

[photodad2001]

This is kind of like asking who do you like better, your mom or dad, but if you hold all variables constant between two boards and vary only one at a time, the biggest difference will be sidecut radius followed closely by stiffness. Actually it's probably a tie, but if I can only vote for one it's radius.

Mom, that's easy!:lol:

Is there any way to figure out the "radius for you" without actually going out and trying multiple boards?

[Jeffrey Day]

I voted stiffness.

I agree with philfell. I'm not light for my size, but I'm not heavy either. I'm 5'4' tall and 150 pounds without my gear on, so I'm always keeping the boards stiffness as one of my main concerns. Granted at my ability level, I probably could ride almost any board out there. (Now, don't take that last statement out of context! I'm not saying that I'm an awesome carver, which I don't think I am. I'm just saying that I hold my own, at times!) But that doesn't mean that I want to be fighting the board either.

Just my two pesos!

[KingCrimson]

Yes I own an Alp. I also have over 20 years experience on a snowboard, was an instructor from 89-93, and carve on whatever board I'm on. My experience tells me longer is better so I chose edge contact. Keep in mind I've only riden boards between 145 and 172.

I've ridden lots of freeride boards. Freestyle too, but they don't even get a mention here since their whole point is to be flimsy and light.

They are very forgiving if you want to carve by most people's definition. Even if you're still uneasy making edge changes, you can torsionally flex a freeride board to break any edge hold. This is all fine and well, and may as well be accepted as the normal, modern technique. Hey if they are under control, you really can't complain. When you get into carving on hardboots, what can happen is you gain speed, and when you attempt to decamber the board and carve, the nose and tail can twist relative to each other. Skid.

In something as well thought out as any new alpine board, there are lots of factors. You hear Billy Bordy's rambles about how old stuff is bad, even at my level (poopy-farty-smelly carving) there is a significant difference between my soft Burton Speed 160 with a 9.67 meter radius and my Coiler 184 GS Titanal with a 16m radius. You'll see in my thread, I don't look dynamic at all. I wasn't going fast, I wasn't diving into turns. It doesn't matter. Even at that speed I was a twitchy little dog on the Burton. On the steeps, I sideslipped. Common sense dictates the shorter, turnier board would be so much nicer on the steep because of the ability to dump speed. That doesn't matter if the board won't get out of the carve, or let you break the tail loose to control speed or avoid another skier. The Coiler picks speed right up, initiates nicely, and lets me go at the end of the carve. It lets me do my downhill edge change, and even reliably skids through the fall line if I choose, and then connects right back up. The mildly dated, top of the line racing board is more forgiving than the turny one with a soft flex. The board that 260 pound Bob Dea said was too stiff.

Oops, I'm rambling just the same..point is, edge length isn't the same as edge hold. Just ask my brother's 167 Rossi.

Now if we are talking no replacement for displacement, a longer board sure does feel more stable. That's true with most boardsports.

In regards to Prior, the 4wd and ATV are AM boards, you'll find Bruce's models to be similar sidecuts. The GS-sized WCR has llike a 15m sidecut. That's normal as well.

My dad, who has skied for the past 40 years has always told me that the idea of sidecut being such a huge factor is a fallacy. I fall into this pool of thought, in fact there was a thread about putting racers on Kemper Bullets (no sidecut) to teach them how to drive, just how a pre-shaped skier would to bend skis with no sidecut.

-Theo

[philfell]

This is to make a case for flex over radius as being most important. But keep in mind that ALL features work together to make a board great.

If the flex is good, who cares if the radius is a bit big or small, the board is still going to ride great. It will just want to do a turn that's a little bigger or smaller than your used to, not a real issue at all unless you are racing. Even then I'd take a good flexing board first.

Now if a board has the radius you want, but is too stiff you are going to be fighting the board every turn. If it is too soft you will have all sorts of other issues. The board will not ride good if the flex is bad regardless of the sidecut.

Yes slight differances in sidecut will make the board turn extremely different, but a good turning board is a good turning board regardless of the size turn it makes.

That's why I choose flex, keep in mind stiffer isn't always better.

[philfell]

One other point I wanted to make for those who read the rocketman thread will know this. In that thread Bruce V. (Coiler) talked about boards he has experimented with high versus low camber. In order to get the boards with high camber to ride well he had to adjust the flex, same with the low camber boards. He didn't change the radius to get the boards to ride the way he wanted, he changed the flex.

One more example why flex is king.

[RCrobar]

What's the most important thing you look for when choosing an EC snowboard?

The fact that the Swoard Team offers their EC board, built by the Nidecker Factory, in five (5) different flexes is a good indication of how important flex is: XS, S, M, H and XH.

Coiler offers custom build ‘one off’ boards where flex is also matched to your weight further validates this.

I agree with everything Philfel has posted in this thread, all characteristics are important but flex and torsional stiffness is key.

Rob

[Jack M]

This is to make a case for flex over radius as being most important. But keep in mind that ALL features work together to make a board great.

I agree it's impossible to choose flex or sidecut over the other. The right stiffness board with a 9m sidecut isn't going to do GS-sized layout carves no matter what, so the two factors are inseparable. (SL-sized layout carves sure, but that's not the goal, right?)

[photodad2001]

..point is, edge length isn't the same as edge hold. Just ask my brother's 167 Rossi.

Think of the question applying to customizing you're own board. It's going to be made, but you have to send in the specs. Now you have laid out your plans for the perfect board and placed the specs of your new board in 5 different envelopes to send in to have the board made but one got lost in the mail. Which one would you be devistated if it didn't make it and the board was made with a generic spec instead of the one you wanted.

[BlueB]

I can pretty much throw few linked ECs on anything from a Skwal to the Tanker, providing that is not too stiff. Overly stiff board just won't hook up when you've thrown yourself over the downhill edge and your CG is below it before the fall line.

No2 - Torsional stiffnes. No brainer - edge hold depends on it, especially on high angles.

No3 - SCR. Too short, everything will happen too fast. You'll need perfect timing and you'll still scrub too much speed. Too long and you'll be moving too fast. Too long is better than too short, though.

No4/5 tie - Efective edge. More for the larger sweet spot and stabillity, then for hold.

No4/5 - Width. Pick something that's good for your boot size at desired angles. Narrower will result in more "hip and armpit" style, especially at the toe side. Wider will result in "Egyptian" or "propper" EC style.

[Zone]

Having had the chance to EC on the original Wild Duck, the 1st gen Swoard and now the 3rd gen Swoard. They appears to have the same flex, length and width. The WD had a shorter radius. The Swoard has some secret layout inside for torsional control. The longer radius of the swoard allows for longer pleasure near the snow. What ever they did inside really works when the board is vertical, even comparing the 1st gen to the 3rd gen, esp. in icy conditions. When not vertical, they feel like your easy but lively freecarving board.

[Jack M]

Is there any way to figure out the "radius for you" without actually going out and trying multiple boards?

Short answer: a longer radius board can make the same size turn as a shorter radius board, but it will have to do it at a higher speed and higher edge angle. A shorter radius board can make the same size turn as a longer radius board, but it will have to do it at a slower speed and less edge angle.

Long answer: http://www.bomberonline.com//articles/physics.cfm

I think I'd like to change my vote to stiffness. The wrong stiffness (especially too soft) is going to ruin your day no matter what. Sidecut can be dealt with, provided you have the trail width and the cajones.

However for EC, the wrong sidecut will also ruin your day. You're going to want to look at 13m to 15m boards. Don't be put off by a big number - the stability will be eye-opening. Smaller than 13 and you're going to be chattering out if you try to lay down a long turn.

[KingCrimson]

Think of the question applying to customizing you're own board. It's going to be made, but you have to send in the specs. Now you have laid out your plans for the perfect board and placed the specs of your new board in 5 different envelopes to send in to have the board made but one got lost in the mail. Which one would you be devistated if it didn't make it and the board was made with a generic spec instead of the one you wanted.

I quit.

[photodad2001]

Short answer: a longer radius board can make the same size turn as a shorter radius board, but it will have to do it at a higher speed and higher edge angle. A shorter radius board can make the same size turn as a longer radius board, but it will have to do it at a slower speed and less edge angle.

Long answer: http://www.bomberonline.com//articles/physics.cfm

I think I'd like to change my vote to stiffness. The wrong stiffness (especially too soft) is going to ruin your day no matter what. Sidecut can be dealt with, provided you have the trail width and the cajones.

However for EC, the wrong sidecut will also ruin your day. You're going to want to look at 13m to 15m boards. Don't be put off by a big number - the stability will be eye-opening. Smaller than 13 and you're going to be chattering out if you try to lay down a long turn.

There is a reason why you are the "MOD". I fully understand this particular response. Without sounding like a whining piss-pod, I need to advance my gear. I have to make the transition from a youthful, lightweight, flexible, bouncy (I no longer bounce, I "thud"), to an experienced, "aged" (like a fine wine), knowleged, advanced, skilled, and faster "snowboarder" than I was before. I always rode fast, but it was on the brink of "out of control". I've harnessed that speed and as long as my board is in contact with the snow there's no flayling (I think that's a word). I'm going to take the recent cash fund I've received and put it into gear even if I don't have the currency to purchase the lifts this year. I may only get 5 or 6 times out, but next year I'll "get it done". Maybe it's the Captain Morgans, but I really love you guys, Tex (notice you got first billing), King Crimson, Willy, Dr D, Blue B, Bobdea, b0ardski, Michelle, fin, big canuk, gdboytyler, and Blue Bird. I've enjoyed talking about my first passion with you weather we agreed or not. If I won the lottery we'd all be put up in a 5 star lodge at the resort of your choice. Happy New Year to you all, and may you all find bliss and happiness in the years to come.

[photodad2001]

Short answer: a longer radius board can make the same size turn as a shorter radius board, but it will have to do it at a higher speed and higher edge angle. A shorter radius board can make the same size turn as a longer radius board, but it will have to do it at a slower speed and less edge angle.

I understand about making a short radius board carve a longer radius turn. I've ridden short radius boards my whole life, excluding my Sims Blade, which is still a short radius board to modern standards, and my Alp which again is still a short radius board compaired to modern alpine boards. I carved my Barfoot 158 Stealth at Keystone and A-Basin at slower speeds and still "skid-carved" at higher speeds. (the tail slipped but was able to keep a controlled "turn") Back in 91 I "skid-carved" my burton Air prototype at Snowshoe WV.

[James Ong]

I vote for flex #1 with sidecut radius a very close 2nd, a flex range somewhere in the medium range compared to your standard alpine boards is what i would look for. The new metal boards seem to be ideal for this, high torsional stiffness and the light weight is a plus if you want to go wide.

Don't be afraid to go bigger scr and overall, if you go too fast the bodysliding is also useful for speed control.

[KingCrimson]

Tex (notice you got first billing), King Crimson, Willy, Dr D, Blue B, Bobdea, b0ardski, Michelle, fin, big canuk, gdboytyler, and Blue Bird. I've enjoyed talking about my first passion with you weather we agreed or not. If I won the lottery we'd all be put up in a 5 star lodge at the resort of your choice. Happy New Year to you all, and may you all find bliss and happiness in the years to come.

=

Yeah, you're alright too. :lol:

Bomber really is great.